Dr. Buni
Member
Would have preferred the Dixie + DK combo in DKC3, but I see little reason to hate Kiddy Kong.
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Smash Wii U & 3DS Downloadable Characters Discussion and Information on Smash Ballot
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
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DICKS AHOY
Banned
DKC3 would've been better if it played off swapping between DK/Diddy/Dixie in different ways IMO. DKC2 being DK-free was fine since it was a cool modern take on DKJr. and the Diddy/Dixie combo worked even better than the DK/Diddy one in the original, but by DKC3 it was sort of weird how DK's big 90's comeback series didn't really feature him all that much.
Plus I really don't like Kiddy. Dude brings nothing new to the table DK couldn't already do and annoys me like Baby Mario in Yoshi's Island annoys me. DKC3 overall gets way more shit than it deserves though, there's quite a lot it has going for it like a way better world map than any of the earlier or later DKC's had.
Plus I really don't like Kiddy. Dude brings nothing new to the table DK couldn't already do and annoys me like Baby Mario in Yoshi's Island annoys me. DKC3 overall gets way more shit than it deserves though, there's quite a lot it has going for it like a way better world map than any of the earlier or later DKC's had.
Dr. Buni
Member
DKC3 is almost as good as DKC2 to me. The hate this games gets sometimes is mind boggling.
Anyways, I was looking at some Federation Force stuff and you know, I am taking back what I said earlier. I don't think I would mind the "marines" (can Nintendo please give them actual names?) in Smash. They look awful in-game, but in the promotional picture, they look like blocky chibi Samuses.
Now to hope their game plays well, has an actual story/lore like the great Metroid games and good music (...like in the great Metroid games). I wonder if Ridley will appear in Federation Force...
Anyways, I was looking at some Federation Force stuff and you know, I am taking back what I said earlier. I don't think I would mind the "marines" (can Nintendo please give them actual names?) in Smash. They look awful in-game, but in the promotional picture, they look like blocky chibi Samuses.
Now to hope their game plays well, has an actual story/lore like the great Metroid games and good music (...like in the great Metroid games). I wonder if Ridley will appear in Federation Force...
Red Arremer
Member
I think the cutesy look of those guys only adds to their Smash potential. They would fit perfectly with the mold.
I can't imagine Ridley would appear. How would a bunch of Federation grunts be able to take him out? Then again, maybe your team is just that good.
Personally I really don't like the idea of a generic marine in Smash. It just seems like such a boring pick! If both Ridley and Dark Samus can't make it in, my choice would have to be Sylux; though they need another game or two under their belt first (Prime 3 barely counts, since it's only a cameo of their ship at the very end).
Geminosity
Member
I guess it's something I don't get because I'm more of a character person than a series person but I'm kind of drawing a blank on the whole 'series representation' numbers people seem to feel out. Like I see people saying metroid 'needs' more reps and I'm not really getting any sense of why outside of it maybe being a veneer for saying "there's a character from that series I like that's not in yet" which i could understand more.
Then again I don't get things like supporting sports teams or guilds either so maybe it's something that just sits in that giant mental blindspot I have about group identity?
Then again I don't get things like supporting sports teams or guilds either so maybe it's something that just sits in that giant mental blindspot I have about group identity?
Dr. Buni
Member
They are generic now, but the marines could be further developed in the game, becoming more interesting characters. Who knows if that'll happen.I can't imagine Ridley would appear. How would a bunch of Federation grunts be able to take him out? Then again, maybe your team is just that good.
Personally I really don't like the idea of a generic marine in Smash. It just seems like such a boring pick! If both Ridley and Dark Samus can't make it in, my choice would have to be Sylux; though they need another game or two under their belt first (Prime 3 barely counts, since it's only a cameo of their ship at the very end).
Sylux is the most requested character other than Ridley and Dark Samus, for a third Metroid Rep, but for a character that have appeared in two games (albeit only briefly in one of them), Sylux still is too much of a ?. We don't know their species (maybe Sylux is even human like Samus), why they hate the Galactic Federation, we don't even know their gender (is Sylux a he, a she or neither?). On the bright side, Sylux have an interesting design and they could be the third major recurring antagonist in the series, after Ridley and MP/Dark Samus.
For Metroid, I don't think it needs more reps. I feel that Ridley should be playable, which is a different thing.I guess it's something I don't get because I'm more of a character person than a series person but I'm kind of drawing a blank on the whole 'series representation' numbers people seem to feel out. Like I see people saying metroid 'needs' more reps and I'm not really getting any sense of why outside of it maybe being a veneer for saying "there's a character from that series I like that's not in yet" which i could understand more.
Then again I don't get things like supporting sports teams or guilds either so maybe it's something that just sits in that giant mental blindspot I have about group identity?
But when it comes to DK, the series definitely needs more reps. Be it K. Rool (yay), Dixie (yaaaaay!) or both (is this real life?), the series just... need more reps.
The music was incredible in DKC3.
I guess it's something I don't get because I'm more of a character person than a series person but I'm kind of drawing a blank on the whole 'series representation' numbers people seem to feel out. Like I see people saying metroid 'needs' more reps and I'm not really getting any sense of why outside of it maybe being a veneer for saying "there's a character from that series I like that's not in yet" which i could understand more.
Then again I don't get things like supporting sports teams or guilds either so maybe it's something that just sits in that giant mental blindspot I have about group identity?
I just like the Metroid series, and I think that there's something interesting characters that could work in Smash that should be there. Same with Donkey Kong, really. At least for me, it's nothing to do with filling slots or distributing equal characters to every franchise. I could care less if say, Black Shadow made it as an F-Zero rep for example. I'm happy with just the Captain!
This is true; on both counts, it seems best to wait till Federation Force is released to see how things turn out.
Green Mamba
Member
When Waddle Dee stars in a game that sold more than a million copies in Japan alone is when I think it's acceptable to place him anywhere near the strata of Dixie Kong. That's just some straight up bullshit.
Red Arremer
Member
Yeah who knows, maybe the coloured soldiers all have unique names/personalities.
The Great Gonzales
Member
Hey Gonzales! It has been awhile and it was nice to see you again! Yep, SmashGAF will never change. I could promise you same thing would happens during future Smash.
Thanks guys
As for the Marines, I dunno, I'm not a fan of putting a generic character like that in. If in Federation Force you're playing as a specific Marine, with his own name and maybe some amount of personality, then I'd be more open to it. But if he's just a generic Marine indistinguishable from all the rest, then no thanks. Also, from what we've seen of FF, it looks like the Marines have basically the same attacks as Samus. Again, we'll have to wait for FF to come out before we can judge, but there's no point in making a Samus clone.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
A lot of the people saying two reps for DKC is 'enough' seem to forget just how huge DKC and Rare's take on DK was in general throughout the 90's. That period alone is bigger sales-wise than a lot of other franchises in Smash combined, let alone the big resurgence it got with DKCR for awhile.
Red Arremer
Member
In regards to being opposed to the marines for being generic, are those of you who think so also opposed towards the Inklings being included on the grounds of not having names or personalities? What about Villager, Wii Fit Trainer or all the Pokemon?
DICKS AHOY
Banned
I thought the 'generic' complaints towards Federation Force's cast was more because their moveset would be outright generic rather than them being generic drones.
They definitely have to expand on Sylux a lot before having them as a playable character in Smash feels anywhere near natural. And it's not just a question of having more appearances - even if they have a major role in Federation Force, Other μ and Prime 4; their design as it is now still does nothing to significantly differentiate itself from Samus', and their sparse motives and characterisation work against them.
I wouldn't mind it if they ended up going with the idea that Sylux is an AI housed in a completely mechanical body; which would give them free reign to make drastic alterations in future appearances; including the ability for parts of their body to operate independently of each other, or giving their base body distinguishing features like additional limbs.
Dr. Buni
Member
I have nothing against clones, so I wouldn't mind a Marine that have a modified version of Samus' moveset, but plays considerably different due to height, weight, speed differences.
I will be honest, it have been years since I played Prime Hunters, so I don't remember exactly what Sylux could bring to Smash. I know they used some sort of shock coil thing. What else?
Wasn't Ghor from Metroid Prime 3 some sort AI functioning in a completely mechanical body?
People tend to ignore how popular the DK series. Plus, iirc Retro's DK games sold much better than their Metroid Prime games, even. It's hilarious to see people listing Nintendo's big franchises and always ignoring DK.
I am not sure if I get what you mean by design? If you mean their design as a character, then yeah, though appearing in Federation Force and other future Metroid titles could develop them enough in order for Sylux to stand on their own legs, instead of being most people's "Well, if we can't have Ridley..." option.
I will be honest, it have been years since I played Prime Hunters, so I don't remember exactly what Sylux could bring to Smash. I know they used some sort of shock coil thing. What else?
Wasn't Ghor from Metroid Prime 3 some sort AI functioning in a completely mechanical body?
UglyRareCharacter
Member
DK Returns out sold all of the Prime games but the vocal peeps did not like that so they are stuck yelling that Retro is 'wasting talent' on DK that should be spent on any thing else, and saying the lie that DK is 'not popular in Japan' so as to give fake evidence for that claim
Along with their blank slate of a personality, I was also talking about their visual design - their exoskeleton could basically be used as another suit for Samus, and their abilities (due to the nature of Hunters) are very similar. It's the aesthetic fluff that could be expanded into more unique qualities were they to return in future games - their Morph Ball equivalent, for example, has them shift into an abstract shape with energy coursing through it; if a propensity for shapeshifting became their defining attribute as a boss enemy in future games, it could give them heaps of unique potential for a moveset.
Also, Ghor wasn't AI, but his body was entirely prosthetic; with only 6% of his original organs remaining. I actually didn't mind him as a character - the only real complaint I had with how he was used in Corruption was that you didn't get any ambient, SHODAN-ish monologues from him in Skytown; and that his boss theme was so underwhelming compared to Gandrayda and Rundas'.
You know, this game has too many people holding swords and fire emblem characters, specialy of the blue hair variety.
So this game needs SOMETHING TO SHAKE THINGS UP !
Like ...
A guy that has a blade like arm from Genei Ibun Roku♯FE !!!! =D
Man, Chrom took not getting into Smash Bros like a champ
Karsticles
Member
How do y'all foresee Nintendo making use of Inkling mechanics? What use will ink and squid form have?
Dr. Buni
Member
I understand. Fortunately, redesigns are quite common in Metroid, so even if Sylux doesn't have a shapeshifting gimmick, they can still have a design that makes them look more "unique" if compared to Samus. I must say I am a fan of the idea of Sylux being a shapeshifter, but since that was basically Gandrayda's gimmick, I wonder if they would give the gimmick to Sylux as well. Though the shapeshifting mechanic you suggest would work in a completely different way from Gandrayda's.
Ghor was definitely the least memorable boss of the trio, from all perspectives. A shame, I am quite fond of cyborgs and other kinds of mechanical life forms.
Looks like an edgy version of Kalas. And Kalas is already quite edgy, to begin with.You know, this game has too many people holding swords and fire emblem characters, specialy of the blue hair variety.
So this game needs SOMETHING TO SHAKE THINGS UP !
Like ...
A guy that has a blade like arm from Genei Ibun Roku♯FE !!!! =D
Probably something mimicking painting more of the stage, like having powers that can only used while standing on a painted surface
The Great Gonzales
Member
There probably wouldn't be a squid form as such since transformation characters are a thing of the past. I can see Inkling turning into a squid for her recovery, or maybe her final smash.
Well, I imagine there'd be a hard limit on how much ink you can put down at one time. Otherwise, you could coat the whole stage and no one could move anywhere. If it was limited to a couple little patches at a time, a la Diddy's bananas, then the 3DS should be fine.
Dr. Buni
Member
Squid form = Crouch, as well as recovery since I imagine their recovery will be the super jump.
Not sure about how the ink mechanics will work. My idea is for the Inkling to cover the stage with ink, which slows down the opponents who walk through it. I am not sure if the 3DS and even the Wii U can handle the ink mess, especially the 3DS, though.
Karsticles
Member
Fyi, you can't see the floor you are walking on for most smash stages. How will folks know the ground is painted?
Geminosity
Member
balladofwindfishes
Member
I'd be incredibly surprised if they're able to paint any surface at all. I think they'll build them around not painting a surface, with a "magic" puddle appearing under them whenever they require Squid form.
My thought about this comes from thinking that, unless the stages were specifically set up for paint or they can work around them not being set up from the start, they're not likely to go back and implement the ability to add paint to every single stage on both versions. It would basically require downloading all of the stages all over again.
My thought about this comes from thinking that, unless the stages were specifically set up for paint or they can work around them not being set up from the start, they're not likely to go back and implement the ability to add paint to every single stage on both versions. It would basically require downloading all of the stages all over again.
Sakurai likes to base movesets on what the game main mechanic and feel are, this is why Captain Falcon is fast, for example.
So painting territory would probably be a locked idea, with thick blobs of painting that can be see from sideview.
Gonzo The Great
Banned
The popular theory on DK Vine is that Kiddy was intentionally designed to be stupid and not as appealing as any of the other Kongs. Why? Because they had to end the need to give the sidekick their own game. This was the end of the trilogy. Kiddy was never going to get a Donkey Kong Country 4 to star in. Diddy and Dixie were each worthy of hero quests. Kiddy was a dumb baby who probably won't remember this adventure when he gets older. The chain was broken here, allowing DK and Diddy to become permanent fixtures again beginning with Donkey Kong 64. Why Kiddy over, say, having DK in the sidekick role? Because then he would overshadow Dixie's starring role.
balladofwindfishes
Member
He also has to base movesets within the confines of what's actually possible to ship in a patch.
How would blobs of paint be visible from the side on every single stage, at every single possible angle, and potentially on moving platforms or transforming platforms?
And he has to do this without editing the stage files at all (or minimally as possible), as he'd need to reship every single stage to do so.
The Great Gonzales
Member
Why couldn't it work like a banana peel? The paint would just be an object sitting on top of a surface, right?
Geminosity
Member
3 things:
a) Ryu added a brand new input system that wasn't even in the game to begin with. What's possible in a patch? Based off that I can't even comprehend.
b) You say that like smash doesn't have lots of things like the blobby puddles already. I might struggle to see the beetle, but I almost always spot the motion bomb despite it being tiny and 'flat'.
c) there's absolutely no need for them to do anything to the levels to implement ink. Ink in any form is it's own system. You don't need to remake a level to do bullet decals or add attachable items so I see no reason for any level work here (unless they want non-inkable surfaces, that would requires level tweaks to mark them out)
A Link to the Past
Banned
I guess it's something I don't get because I'm more of a character person than a series person but I'm kind of drawing a blank on the whole 'series representation' numbers people seem to feel out. Like I see people saying metroid 'needs' more reps and I'm not really getting any sense of why outside of it maybe being a veneer for saying "there's a character from that series I like that's not in yet" which i could understand more.
Then again I don't get things like supporting sports teams or guilds either so maybe it's something that just sits in that giant mental blindspot I have about group identity?
I'm on both sides of the fence. I think DK must have one character who would be interesting, and DK generally could stand to have another rep. To me, it comes down to a combination of those things. So like if a really interesting Mario character went up against a Wario character who was not quite as interesting moveset-wise, I'd sooner go for the Wario character - just by the virtue that being a Wario character makes them overall more interesting and desirable.
balladofwindfishes
Member
But it's not always sitting on a surface
What happens when ink lands right there? Does it clip into the ground? What angle does it sit at?
A. That's a brand new input system, just a quirk of the character, not really a huge deal.
B. Those things aren't core to a character's design
C. Decals wouldn't work. The ink has have depth or you couldn't see it on 2D stages.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Inklings aren't quaggan though.
Also new page yet no news
Also new page yet no news
The Great Gonzales
Member
What happens when a banana peel lands there? Or a mine? I don't see the difference.
A few ideas I thought of a while back:
-All their attacks spread ink over their range
-Inklings can use b+down go into squid form.
-Using any attack will instantly return an Inkling to human form.
-When in ink, squid form can move significantly faster as well as jump higher and farther.
-When ink is on a wall squids can use it to hang off the wall and recover from as low as the ink is.
-When enemies are in ink their movement speed and jump height are greatly reduced.
-Ink remains after the death of the inkling who placed it.
-Rather than getting rid of ink, enemy Inklings lay their ink over currently placed ink (essentially the same thing, but without requiring an extra step to relay ink).
As for how to balance ink I had a few ideas:
-Ink will only stay on the field for several seconds. Probably 10 at most.
-Enemies can use any attack to swipe away ink in the range of that attack. It will still expire on its own but not for a long time, at least over a minute.
-You can layer different levels of ink for increased benefit to yourself and harm to your opponents and every time they attack they only get rid of 1 layer of ink, but it also expires relatively quickly on its own, maybe 20-30 seconds. With this idea you probably wouldn't be able to hang off a wall without multiple layers of ink.
If you can see land mines and motion sensor bombs I doubt ink will be an issue.
If Sakurai has to make concessions to their moveset to add them in then it's not worth it, save them for Smash 5.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
For something as simple object-wise as ink I don't see why it couldn't just slightly bend in half for situations like that. On the 3DS I don't imagine if it's represented as a low-resolution 2D cut out it'd be too much of a strain.But it's not always sitting on a surface
What happens when ink lands right there? Does it clip into the ground? What angle does it sit at?
A. That's a brand new input system, just a quirk of the character, not really a huge deal.
B. Those things aren't core to a character's design
C. Decals wouldn't work. The ink has have depth or you couldn't see it on 2D stages.
A Link to the Past
Banned
What's curious to me is that the Brawl popularity poll had Dragon Chan as the only opponent that got suggested. Never realized he was a fan favourite, though I suppose he does come from a very early entry in the series.
KelpPlankton
Member
Ink wouldn't be a physical object. It would be a texture, like the cracks in the ground when someone slams down or the scorch marks explosives make. it would just last longer.
Geminosity
Member
Actually I think ballad has an interesting question on this one as ink isn't a solid and I don't think Sakurai would be pleased to have the ink puddle hovering over an angled corner like that based on how fussy they can be about other things. Admittedly it also somewhat depends on the width and depth of the puddle model, assuming they don't use shaders or something to morph the polys into shape.
edit:
A. Reading new inputs and mapping them to new outputs like that isn't a 'character quirk', that's a new system. It might only be used by one character but it's a surprising thing to add for just one.
B. was an answer to 'how can we see it', besides the puddles would be bigger and brighter than the motion bombs and again I never have trouble spotting those.
C. I was giving decals and attachable items as examples of how you add things to a level. Regardless of how they do the ink the only thing that would require any kind of level editing would be if they want un-inkable surfaces, the rest is purely systematic. Also, you can use shaders to deform surfaces so it might not even need a model.
balladofwindfishes
Member
It clips slightly, but it's barely noticeable.
It would be completely noticeable if it were a disc shaped puddle
That would be very clear and obviously clipping, or the puddle would be at a bizarre and awkward angle.
Which are entirely unnoticeable on flat 2D stages.
The puddles have to have depth to account for these stages.
I think the Smash engine, even the 3DS, could handle a proper paint system with no issue. But it seems like a huge change to retro-actively add, one that might require a large amount of work done to stages to ensure they work properly, and if a stage changes a bit, they have to ship the entire stage again (minus the assets obviously), and I'm not sure that's a small enough download to work as a patch..
Green Mamba
Member
I would think the ink would be a texture, not a physical object. Having it bend at that angle doesn't seem impossible. The thing about it though is that it would have to take on a slightly different look on every stage. Like, the flat 2D stages it would have to be "overhanging" the sides to be visible.
I think it's doable but a lot of work.
I think it's doable but a lot of work.
Gonzo The Great
Banned
OMG HYPE!
Didn't she claim there was supposed to be a Direct last week?
Green Mamba
Member
I would trust Octogirl on datamining but I don't think she knows anything else.
Geminosity
Member
Huh... I was saying you wouldn't have to change the levels to do ink, but you've actually come up with one change that probably would require some potential level editing. Aka defining the forward surface to show the 'overlap' on might be necessary for some levels.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Yea, I agree, it's 100% possible to do. It's just so much work. There's so many different stages with so many bizarre mechanics and transformations and weird visual designs.
For example, what if a paint "puddle" covers two blocks on Mario Maker, dead centered. You destroy the block that holds half of the puddle. Now what happens? Does the puddle disappear as soon as any platform it touches goes away, or does it hang over the edge and look weird.
"Hanging" would work for everything 2D. Until you hit Duck Hunt. A 2D stage that, for some reason, actually has proper depth and isn't entirely flat. There's nothing to hang over on that stage.
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