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Smash Wii U & 3DS Downloadable Characters Discussion and Information on Smash Ballot

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Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Don't make me start ranting about how bad Smash 4's soundtrack is. It's the definitive example of quantity over quality.

The "bad" of it is that it's missing other tracks which pretty much can be said for any Smash game.

Yeah you're gonna say DKC music selection is shit, but they have Vocal Returns. That absolves everything wrong with DKC.

It's a game that has K.K. Bubblegum and Vocal Jet Plane in the OST. That already puts it above anything.
 

Golnei

Member
Don't make me start ranting about how bad Smash 4's soundtrack is. It's the definitive example of quantity over quality.

I wouldn't call it a bad soundtrack - most of its new arrangements are great on their own, and the Melee and Brawl music hasn't gotten any worse - but the redundancies and overlooked tracks will never stop being infuriating. I know it must be hard to represent so many franchises in a single game, but the amount of ground to cover is exactly why things like including direct rips of themes already represented several times over are such baffling choices.
 

javadoze

Member
Looking at who owns the rights to Smash 4's new music is kind of scary for the future, as someone who enjoys all Smash music returning.

If Smash 5 isn't made by Namco, expect MASSIVE cuts to music. Namco owns at least a a third of the compositions in the game.

It'd be silly for Nintendo to go with anyone else for SmashV (especially with how Sakurai talks about "starting from scratch" each game with a new team).

That said, even though Smash4's music variety is lesser than that of Brawl's, it's still an enjoyable soundtrack (the only big offender to me is probably the DK remixes).
 
Holy shit at calling the soundtrack "bad." Most games of this caliber would have one or two songs per stage.

Well, to be fair, most stages only actually do have one or two new songs per stage, the rest being rips from either an older Smash game, or from the game itself.

I don't really have a problem with the new music. My issues come from the cuts and the edits to classic Melee songs. And a couple entirely redundant remixes (like the DP wild Pokemon theme)
 
The "bad" of it is that it's missing other tracks which pretty much can be said for any Smash game.

Yeah you're gonna say DKC music selection is shit, but they have Vocal Returns. That absolves everything wrong with DKC.

It's a game that has K.K. Bubblegum and Vocal Jet Plane in the OST. That already puts it above anything.

The Donkey Kong music selection is shit, the Metroid music selection is shit, the Wario music selection is shit, half of the new arrangements are of songs that have already been remixed multiple times, and a good chunk of the soundtrack is lazily copy and pasted from Brawl. Then we have songs like the DK Rap that have been arbitrarily butchered for no reason. That alone ruined the soundtrack for me.

So entitled. There is so much good music in this game.
There is also a lot of bad music, which makes the soundtrack feel bloated. Criticizing a consumer good does not make one entitled. Nintendo is a business, not a charity.

Holy shit at calling the soundtrack "bad." Most games of this caliber would have one or two songs per stage.
I'd rather have 2-3 good songs per stage than midi rips from SNES games. Suzaku Castle is awful in this regard.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
The Donkey Kong music selection is shit, the Metroid music selection is shit, the Wario music selection is shit, half of the new arrangements are of songs that have already been remixed multiple times, and a good chunk of the soundtrack is lazily copy and pasted from Brawl. Then we have songs like the DK Rap that have been arbitrarily butchered for no reason. That alone ruined the soundtrack for me.

There is also a lot of bad music, which makes the soundtrack feel bloated. Criticizing a consumer good does not make one entitled. Nintendo is a business, not a charity.

Metroid? I actually think MoM music is good. You mention "bad" but what you mean is "needs more" because "bad" implies the ones we got are bad. A good chunk? Actually plenty of the ones in Brawl are gone. Hell, by that logic each game took a chunk from the former! And yes cutting is bad mostly for the timing, but it didn't really dwindle the quality much (Guar Plains is still good) and seems like you're just focusing on the memetic DK Rap.

And going for that "I am doing good because I criticize" doesn't really give your flawed "criticism" a defense either, like some sort of "warrior" for the masses.

And you even have a terrible revelation towards Suzaku Castle considering we did get 2 good songs + bonuses (which you can turn off by the way). If that's not what the person implies by entitlement what is... oh wait, maybe just someone who nitpicks pointless details while ignoring the hypocrisy of the points.
 
I'm gonna be honest: I kind of wish we went back to the approach Melee did with its soundtrack.

Rather than having a huge armada of composers, Melee only had a small handful. Generally, that game had a smaller, but overall more cohesive and memorable soundtrack. This isn't to say Brawl/Smash 4 didn't have great music, but I'm not sure if they really a hold a candle to the likes of Fountain of Dreams, Fire Emblem, Mute City or Venom.

And really, Melee also just had a soundtrack that felt more balanced for each series. Nowadays, we're constantly at each other's throats how much music a series should have or shouldn't/doesn't have, but in Melee, series had 1-3 tracks each and that was it. It felt more fair.

I just wish Sakurai would realize that sometimes, when it comes to music, bigger might not always mean better...and he actually has in the past: Kid Icarus Uprising featured a smaller but talented group of composers (Motoi Sakuraba, Yuzo Koshiro, Masafumi Takada, Noriyuki Iwadare, Takahiro Nishi, Yasunori Mitsuda) and they managed to produce one of the best soundtracks in any Nintendo title. With that game, it's hit after hit after hit after hit. IIRC there's around 70 tracks in KIU, and ALL of them being pure quality. With Brawl/Smash 4, it tends to be hit or miss.
 
Metroid only has two song cuts in the entire series of Smash, which is actually pretty good. Planet Zebes and the Metroid Prime title remix. If Orpheon comes back as DLC, I wouldn't necessarily count out either returning as well.

Yoshi and Star Fox only have one song each missing. Yoshi's Island (Brawl Remix) and Sector Z. I'd say that's fairly good as well. Mario and Kirby are missing more songs than I care to count. Zelda and Pokemon have three missing each, Saria's Song, Great Sea and Molgera, along with Saffron City, DP Wild Pokemon (Brawl) and Lumiose City. I think DK is missing three, but it might be four, I'm not confident in how many Brawl songs were cut. He had a couple random Hijinx rips from various games that never made it over, but I don't know the exact count (if it was one or two) along with the map screen theme and Jungle Japes.

There's no series from Smash 64 that has 100% of its music in Smash 4.

Overall, Yoshi and Star Fox are the closest to 100% songs, and I actually think both have realistic chances, if Sector Z, YI:B or Corneria manage to make it as DLC on the Wii U.

This isn't to say Brawl/Smash 4 didn't have great music, but I'm not sure if they really a hold a candle to the likes of Fountain of Dreams, Fire Emblem, Mute City or Venom.

I think the Great Cave Offensive, Forest Area and the Mario Lost Levels Medley come fairly close to matching Melee's quality.

The orchestration is never going to happen again, so stuff like Venom and Fountain of Dreams, both of which are hands down the best versions of those particular songs, are probably one offs in the Smash universe.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
And I'm gonna step in and say...

But the instrument used in Melee was shit. Yeah it had a singular piece, but then it made the music boring and lacking of personality. The music also suffered from what I call "epicness" that was big during that era - that's why there were moments where the music suddenly went mute or had this weird "softening" or reverbing effect like the whole thing was recorded in some studio with poor room conditions.

And personally I feel FoD rendition is overrated. You want good music with simple instruments? Go look at 64. They didn't overuse the same-y instruments and had a more upbeat tone that fits the game rather than the "operatic" feel they went for Melee.

And you just compared to quite different games with different focus. And may I add that there's a reason you can "pick" which amount of OST plays on which or even outright nullify its existence.

So yeah, I never understood this "bloat" when 1) you can pick which music you want to play in a stage anyway and 2) it's not like the musicians are all playing in all of the songs. It's like people missed the analogy of the "too many chefs" and assume it applies to anything, and that "anything many must mean it's crap because muh quality > quantity!"
 
I like the ported music from new games like Galaxy and Uprising but I do not agree when people say that individual good remixes excuse the piss poor variety in a lot of the remixes.

Like we have so many God damned jungle remixes, Zelda main theme remixes, Brinstar remixes, Mario overworld remixes, Mute City remixed...I mean I understand if they get new composers in there who are like "I want to try my hand at iconic songs," but then, I don't know, ADD NEW STUFF ON TOP OF THEM???

Also the fact that they had like years to add in Tropical Freeze music but only added the two mediocre songs from the game's first trailer is abysmal. Give me Home-coming Hijinx and Punch Bowl will ya Sakurai?
 
And I'm gonna step in and say...

But the instrument used in Melee was shit. Yeah it had a singular piece, but then it made the music boring and lacking of personality. The music also suffered from what I call "epicness" that was big during that era - that's why there were moments where the music suddenly went mute or had this weird "softening" or reverbing effect like the whole thing was recorded in some studio with poor room conditions.

And personally I feel FoD rendition is overrated. You want good music with simple instruments? Go look at 64. They didn't overuse the same-y instruments and had a more upbeat tone that fits the game rather than the "operatic" feel they went for Melee.

And you just compared to quite different games with different focus. And may I add that there's a reason you can "pick" which amount of OST plays on which or even outright nullify its existence.

So yeah, I never understood this "bloat" when 1) you can pick which music you want to play in a stage anyway and 2) it's not like the musicians are all playing in all of the songs.

Venom is the best Star Fox song that has ever existed. It even beats Fountain of Dreams for me, and it's even so good, that it's the only song where the Smashing Live! version actually sounds worse.

That song is just outright gorgeous and an amazing arrangement.
 
Metroid? I actually think MoM music is good. You mention "bad" but what you mean is "needs more" because "bad" implies the ones we got are bad. A good chunk? Actually plenty of the ones in Brawl are gone. Hell, by that logic each game took a chunk from the former! And yes cutting is bad mostly for the timing, but it didn't really dwindle the quality much (Guar Plains is still good) and seems like you're just focusing on the memetic DK Rap.
Bad in terms of variety, music quality, and choice of songs. Some of the remixes are downright terrible (Try, Try Again), while others do not fit the stage they play on. Why does the Super Mario World boss theme play on Mushroom Kingdom U and not Luigi's Mansion? Why even put it in the game if you're unable to find a proper location for it? The DK Rap is an iconic song and they cut three major verses from it for no reason. You can dismiss it as a dank meme all you want, but it shouldn't have been tampered with in the first place.

And going for that "I am doing good because I criticize" doesn't really give your flawed "criticism" a defense either, like some sort of "warrior" for the masses.

Criticism is a subjective thing. I never presented myself as some martyr. But to call me "entitled" because I think the soundtrack is lacking in terms of quality and variety is completely unfair.

And you even have a terrible revelation towards Suzaku Castle considering we did get 2 good songs + bonuses (which you can turn off by the way). If that's not what the person implies by entitlement what is... oh wait, maybe just someone who nitpicks pointless details while ignoring the hypocrisy of the points.
Right, so every song that isn't good is just a "bonus". It adds bloat to the soundtrack and takes up space on the disc. I loved the Melee approach, where each stage had two fully orchestrated arrangements. And they were all composed by the same people, giving the soundtrack a sense of cohesion. I can't think of a single song in that game I dislike. Even the 8-bit Mario themes fit the aesthetic of the stages they played on, which is important for me. Meanwhile, the Smash 4 soundtrack is essentially a grab bag of Nintendo songs randomly placed about based on which franchise they belong to. When I hear something like The Great Sea playing on Skyloft, I begin to question what was going through their heads.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Venom is the best Star Fox song that has ever existed. It even beats Fountain of Dreams for me, and it's even so good, that it's the only song where the Smashing Live! version actually sounds worse.

That song is just outright gorgeous and an amazing arrangement.

It might be, but personally it doesn't really fit the tone of the game. I think that's pretty much what I feel for most of the Melee music. Only few managed to sound actually like it's in a combat game (RB Trainer battle).
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Bad in terms of variety, music quality, and choice of songs. Some of the remixes are downright terrible (Try, Try Again), while others do not fit the stage they play on. Why does the Super Mario World boss theme play on Mushroom Kingdom U and not Luigi's Mansion? Why even put it in the game if you're unable to find a proper location for it? The DK Rap is an iconic song and they cut three major verses from it for no reason. You can dismiss it as a dank meme all you want, but it shouldn't have been tampered with in the first place.

The variety is good though, save for DKC. In fact I'd argue there's no stage that doesn't have a bad song, and if anything it's usually bad stages having good songs. Why should boss theme play on Luigi's Mansion for instance? It's a mainline Mario music. And while I could probably feel for your sake with DK Rap, honestly most cuts didn't really sound bad. Like Guar Plains only lost the drum segment.

Criticism is a subjective thing. I never presented myself as some martyr. But to call me "entitled" because I think the soundtrack is lacking in terms of quality and variety is completely unfair.

Considering on how you show up yourself then immediately go for the defense, I'd say it's fitting.

Right, so every song that isn't good is just a "bonus". It adds bloat to the soundtrack and takes up space on the disc. I loved the Melee approach, where each stage had two fully orchestrated arrangements. And they were all composed by the same people, giving the soundtrack a sense of cohesion. I can't think of a single song in that game I dislike. Even the 8-bit Mario themes fit the aesthetic of the stages they played on, which is important for me. Meanwhile, the Smash 4 soundtrack is essentially a grab bag of Nintendo songs randomly placed about based on which franchise they belong to. When I hear something like The Great Sea playing on Skyloft, I begin to question what was going through their heads.

Again, you say bloat when you have a choice to turn them off. And yes, Melee approach where all music sound the same and lack distinction outside of few, where they felt to sound so epic that they ended up not fitting a game where you fight each other save for very few instances where they realized "oh shit, this music is about beating up!"

I find all complaining on the excess of music to be superflous given the fact that "My Music" exists.

Yes! Finally, someone sees the light!

Now wait until you get people complaining about choices... I can really feel it.
 
I find all complaining on the excess of music to be superflous given the fact that "My Music" exists.

Still, I don't know. To me, a game's soundtrack feels more special when almost all of it turns out great. Kid Icarus Uprising is one of the few games is where I have nearly the entire soundtrack on my Iphone.
 
It might be, but personally it doesn't really fit the tone of the game. I think that's pretty much what I feel for most of the Melee music. Only few managed to sound actually like it's in a combat game (RB Trainer battle).

I don't believe Smash music has to be battle themed at all. If that was so, the only songs we'd have would be boss fights. Venom is an amazingly well done arrangement of a classic Star Fox song. That's all it really needs to be.

Mother only has one song that's a battle theme (or rather a medley from Mother 3), and I doubt anyone would say the Mother series music in Smash doesn't fit.

Fountain of Dreams was retconned to be battle music as well lol

I find all complaining on the excess of music to be superflous given the fact that "My Music" exists.

My music doesn't fix the issue of missing Brawl/Melee songs or songs being on the totally wrong stage thematically.
 

Javier

Member
My music doesn't fix the issue of missing Brawl/Melee songs or songs being on the totally wrong stage thematically.
I know. That's why I said "complaining on the EXCESS of music". There are cut songs I miss as well, most notably Fourside, which to date is a Melee exclusive.

I was kinda hoping Sakurai would add a couple of empty slots to each stage in My Music which we can use to add any song in the OST to every stage. That would pretty much solve any issues with "Music being on the wrong stage".
Also I wanted to put Ashley's Theme on Luigi's Mansion.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
the original intent of the music doesn't have to be battle-themed to be battle-themed though, you can change it by amping up the pace, the instruments used, etc.

Like I thought Onett was a well done music for fighting because they sped it up and had an upbeat music, and we all know Onett doesn't really sound battle-y :p Same with Smiles and Tears.
 
In terms of average quality, the ranking has always been:

1. Melee
2. 64 (nostalgia)
3. Smash 4
4. Brawl

Smash 4 and Brawl's issues are the same - too many bad songs - but Smash 4 has way more songs (and way more orchestrated songs), so it definitely wins by default.
 
Like I don't super care about bloat, in fact it is the opposite for me...if you have space on the disk and rights to the songs, port over as many as you can!!! SMM has 27 songs, right? So why not port over most of TF's soundtrack? Or Wonderful 101? Or Galaxy's songs?

I literally cannot think of a reason other than subjective shit about how "they don't fit" on stages, to which I say...NeoGAF User, meet Ai No Uta in Distant Planet :p
 

BGBW

Maturity, bitches.
When you have My Music to turn off songs you may not like, average quality isn't really a good measure. If that was the case Smash for 3DS would be number one.
 

Platy

Member
DlAwZWG.gif


Yeah...

There's a date? What for?

Aaah, it's so hard to keep up with you guys

mqKHkW8.png

https://twitter.com/RogersBase/status/656506602292310017

One hype at the time ... ONE HYPE AT THE TIME !
 

NotLiquid

Member
Not to be annoying or contrary, but what tells us for sure that we're not getting a Direct on the 23rd? Just curious. The info-starving from Nintendo is really getting to me. D:

We could get one and the fact that the Splatoon update is hiding a lot of stuff makes me think Nintendo wants to reveal stuff on their own accord at a later date.

But we're a little passed for this to have any real veracity. Just give up on it. I did.

People waiting for Inkling are starting to make Ridley supporters look like grounded, rational people.

Nah. People just want news in general. Smash is no exception. Inklings have little to do with it.

Even if the leak were to be real no one can deny that Nintendo's interaction with their customers and fans has been absolutely tepid since Iwata's passing.
 

NeonZ

Member
I'm gonna be honest: I kind of wish we went back to the approach Melee did with its soundtrack.

Rather than having a huge armada of composers, Melee only had a small handful. Generally, that game had a smaller, but overall more cohesive and memorable soundtrack. This isn't to say Brawl/Smash 4 didn't have great music, but I'm not sure if they really a hold a candle to the likes of Fountain of Dreams, Fire Emblem, Mute City or Venom.

Melee's Soundtrack was good, but I think if they hadn't expanded it with Brawl, it'd get old very fast. People already complain about main themes getting new remixes in SSB4, right after Brawl already had remixed them, but if we were stuck with Melee's method, new remixes of various main themes would be the large majority of the soundtrack with only a few exceptions and the old music would be mostly lost from one game to the next.
 
We could get one and the fact that the Splatoon update is hiding a lot of stuff makes me think Nintendo wants to reveal stuff on their own accord at a later date.

But we're a little passed for this to have any real veracity. Just give up on it. I did.
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WHY WOULD YOU HURT ME IN THIS WAAAAAY

But yeah I don't have... much confidence in the rumors at this point, though it breaks my heart. Inkling and/or Shovel Knight would be incredibly exciting newcomers for me, and I still really hope they pan out sooner or later. Probably later, if ever, at this point. :'s
 

NotLiquid

Member
image.php

WHY WOULD YOU HURT ME IN THIS WAAAAAY

But yeah I don't have... much confidence in the rumors at this point, though it breaks my heart. Inkling and/or Shovel Knight would be incredibly exciting newcomers for me, and I still really hope they pan out sooner or later. Probably later, if ever, at this point. :'s

Inklings are pretty much the likeliest newcomers Nintendo themselves would like to add if they were given the choice. Just look at how huge Splatoon is in Japan. By the end of the year it'll have made a million there alone. I have no doubt in my mind that they will happen some day. Its just a matter of when.

I still don't know what to think about Shovel Knight though.
 

Pokemaniac

Member
I actually thought of a rather interesting issue they have going forward with Brawl ports.

So on the store page for Pirate Ship, it actually mentions that Pirate Ship comes with new music. This is technically correct. If you don't own Hyrule Castle, buying Pirate Ship gives you Termina Field and the Zelda Medley.

However, this poses a problem. In the future, if a Brawl stage isn't a Mario, Kirby or Zelda stage, there really isn't any "new" music they could grab and sell as coming with the stage.

It's something that I think would actually get them to ship at least one song for a stage. Frigate Orpheon, for example, couldn't have that bullet point. However, Planet Zebes 64 and Metroid Prime Title Screen are there to easily be ripped.

If they want to continue to sell that DLC stages come with new music as a bullet point (which I feel they would), then their hand is kind of forced. Luckily, every potential stage port from Brawl has music not in Smash 4 (either from Brawl, Melee or 64), so they can easily just grab those songs.

I distinctly remember a new Zelda song popping up when I bought the Pirate Ship stage, despite me already owning all the other stages (aside from Mario Maker, of course).
 

Tyeforce

Member
I distinctly remember a new Zelda song popping up when I bought the Pirate Ship stage, despite me already owning all the other stages (aside from Mario Maker, of course).
It may have been the CD for Gerudo Valley (Original) if you haven't already unlocked it by clearing 10-Man Smash within 17 seconds.
 

Dr. Buni

Member
In terms of average quality, the ranking has always been:

1. Melee
2. 64 (nostalgia)
3. Smash 4
4. Brawl

Smash 4 and Brawl's issues are the same - too many bad songs - but Smash 4 has way more songs (and way more orchestrated songs), so it definitely wins by default.
Gee, I disagree completely. To me it's Brawl/Smash 4 > 64 > Melee. Melee's OST just wasn't as memorable to me.
 

IntelliHeath

As in "Heathcliff"
Heh, people are bitching about the musics and forget how much they should be grateful that they could hear music.

I'm not asking for any pity but just saying that people should be more appreciative with whatever they got in the game or with noise and music in general.
 
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