A Tetris stage and one of the Tetrisphere robots as an assist trophy would probably be enough. Some sort of character might not be impossible, though - Tetris blocks are the few icons with the widespread recognition of Pacman, and I'm sure they could come up with something creative and functional using the concept.
Smash Wii U & 3DS Downloadable Characters Discussion and Information on Smash Ballot
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A Tetris stage and one of the Tetrisphere robots as an assist trophy would probably be enough. Some sort of character might not be impossible, though - Tetris blocks are the few icons with the widespread recognition of Pacman, and I'm sure they could come up with something creative and functional using the concept.
TheDinoman
Member
I always assumed Sakurai was okay with including Snake because he knew that the character was a popular gaming icon and MGS was an important franchise, regardless of its relevance to Nintendo.
Now, if Hideki Kamiya came up to Sakurai and asked for Bayonetta's inclusion and they actually went through with it, you'd have a point.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
Or a character that can just represent the puzzle genre in general and incorporate different Nintendo puzzle games would be good too. Lip from Panel De Pon maybe?
Geminosity
Member
I'd be cool with lip :3
Lip's design gives me flashbacks to Rod Land. Loved that game so much as a kid XD
It still bothers me that we got 'tetris attack' instead of Panel de Pon :/
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Even if Lip as a character isn't really relevant at all or even that well-known in a 'retro' sense, Tetris Attack is one of my favorite games and having her attack mostly through different combinations of Panel de Pon blocks would be great, and that aspect of her moveset would probably be recognizable at least to people. Definitely one of those unlikely characters like Jill Dozer or Banjo who're technically possible but obviously not going to be playable ever.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
No, gaming icon is not part of it. Everything else is just headcanon.
Literally, all of the points Sakurai brought up was because they were friends.
Eh I think Snake being a gaming icon was definitely part of it, even if it was never outright stated. If Kojima was some random Indie dev suggesting his indie game one off character to join the Smash roster, I'm sure Sakurai would have said no. Friends or otherwise. I don't think it's a coincidence that all 3rd party characters in Smash Bros. so far have a huge history behind them.
Dr. Buni
Member
You can't be sure about how an entirely different person thinks. Sakurai could perfectly have said yes if Snake was an indie character, if he wanted that character in Smash. Or he could have said no. You don't know Sakurai to claim what he would have or wouldn't have said
As Boss Doggie said, Snake was in Brawl because of Sakurai and Kojima's friendship, not because Snake is a "gaming icon". Until Sakurai comes and states otherwise, there's absolutely no reason to believe anything other than that.
NeonZ
Member
The reason that he mentioned was that Kojima personally went to him and asked to include Snake when Melee's development was almost complete, not that they're friends.
However, Sakurai also said after Snake's reveal that he wouldn't "arbitrarily increase the number of third party representatives".
You can't be sure about how an entirely different person thinks. Sakurai could perfectly have said yes if Snake was an indie character, if he wanted that character in Smash. Or he could have said no. You don't know Sakurai to claim what he would have or wouldn't have said
Sure, I never claimed to know what Sakurai thinks, just what I believe was part of the cause of Snake's inclusion.
You also have to remember that Super Smash Bros. is a commercial game sold to customers. Snake's inclusion in Smash was the biggest hype event in Brawl's, and maybe even Smash Bros'. as a whole, history. I'm sure the hype generated from that helped sales. A random indie character would have gotten a "Who.gif" from most people. Not sure if Nintendo would have been happy with that.
No it was not. Sonic's reveal was the biggest hype event in Brawl's and smash's history. Yeah people were excited for Snake, but at the same time no one was particularly asking for him.
Lip would be great! She would definitely be a fun character to add to Smash. As for Tetris itself, I agree that a stage would be the best way of going about things. As of now, wouldn't they have to get Ubisoft's approval though? I heard that they currently have the North American license for Tetris (which is why Sega couldn't bring over the PuyoPuyo and Tetris crossover).
Dimitri LH
Member
Id totally be okay with Lip, maybe make the alts other characters ala bowser jr.
Geminosity
Member
I know it's not really on the cards being a sega property and all but Puyo Puyo was always cool too. I would love to throw slimes at people as a way of attacking and the puyopuyo cast are adorable too :3
Haha, that'd be neat because you could do all of fairies except Neris (who's more of a mermaid) but I suspect Bowser jr and the koopalings are a special case
I've always liked the idea of Lip joining for three very silly reasons:
Gameplay: I've always wanted a character in a fighter (specifically Smash) who could troll people's spatial awareness by swapping them about using things like a cursor or panels. (Think Trafalgar Law in One Piece) Imagine if Lip had a projectile that could lock on to characters, items, or her own generated items and using a combination of said projectile and another input, she could flip places with said object or flip other objects/characters with ease? Someone actually animated this and I remember posting it in POTD thread(s) before, but I'll put them here just for emphasis:
Seeing it all animated just made me want her or a character with a similar mechanic so much more. I'd be totally down for her to join up though since I love when Nintendo dips into the vault for Smash characters.
"Storyline": Smash has a fun way of giving characters their own humorous story lines, whether it's Little Mac constantly getting clowned on for his height by Samus, Zero Suit Samus' favorite Pokemon being Pikachu because of the save he performed when she was attacked by Ridley in Brawl, creepy Peach, Falcon being a mass Pikmin exterminator, etc. I always thought it'd be fun if they made Lip a character that was all cute unless she dealt with Dr. Mario, Pikachu or Yoshi (her primary rivals) at which point she'd bring out the look of disgust like a jilted actress. The reasoning for this is simple, she didn't appreciate how Panel De Pon got localized as Tetris Attack with Yoshi as the star, Pokemon Puzzle League with Pikachu as the star (N64) and she generally hates Dr. Mario for being the "face" of Nintendo's Puzzle League. :lol
Captain Rainbow: Ever since Little Mac got the promotion to playable, I've been kinda wanting Takamaru (duh) and Lip to join to create a "Captain Rainbow/Mimin Island Success Story" team of characters who overcame their obscurity and personal issues to become relevant again. Stupid I know but it's one of those cute things that is fun to think about.
Not really. Sonic's reveal cannot stack up against:
- The reveal of Brawl iself.
- The reveal of Snake, an unexpected addition.
- The concept that third party characters could be included, leading to the possibility of Sonic.
- The music!
Dimitri LH
Member
Red Arremer
Member
Haha, that'd be neat because you could do all of fairies except Neris (who's more of a mermaid) but I suspect Bowser jr and the koopalings are a special case
I doubt Lip would get more than alt colours referencing the other fairies, but ironically enough there's no chance they could reference Furil from Nintendo Puzzle Collection, who, bar super minor details such as the flowers on their respective shoes, looks identical to Lip (and is the only fairy to do so among all the new cast introduced for that one).
I love all of this.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
Yep, it was pretty last minutes. CGI trailer required a lot of works and time.
The Sonic reveal was so surreal to me.
Usually during the Dojo high I'd rush home every day from school due to Japan time, but that Wednesday I decided against doing that for once since I'd gone for lunch and was kind of feeling a bit "meh" that day. I came home late and logged in on MSN (rip), saw around three people who had personal messages or user names about Sonic and Smash. At first I thought "okay people are just pulling my leg here, someone probably did another fake screenshot or something". I immediately log into the Smash Dojo to confirm it wasn't just some lame rumor people took out of their butt. I see the "Warning! Challenger Approaching" banner cover up today's announcement and my first though is "nah, nah you guys are just totally fucking with me here. It can't be. It fucking can't be". I scroll down in tiny, tiny increments and start to see the emblem taking shape, and the name "Sonic".
I take three seconds to just stop and say an audible "WHAT". Then scroll down and see the render, the screenshots and the description. I was in total disbelief and had the biggest fucking grin on my face. Even though the reveal video wasn't necessarily as hype as the Brawl reveal trailer, it was holy shit worthy for me to see Sonic in Smash Bros actually be a reality. Just totally came out of the left field for me, completely unanticipated.
I think the Sonic reveal cemented my enjoyment of unanticipated surprises, just when you least expect it. This is why I'd kind of enjoy if a Smash 4 DLC announcement was just randomly dropped on Twitter or something without any buildup.
Usually during the Dojo high I'd rush home every day from school due to Japan time, but that Wednesday I decided against doing that for once since I'd gone for lunch and was kind of feeling a bit "meh" that day. I came home late and logged in on MSN (rip), saw around three people who had personal messages or user names about Sonic and Smash. At first I thought "okay people are just pulling my leg here, someone probably did another fake screenshot or something". I immediately log into the Smash Dojo to confirm it wasn't just some lame rumor people took out of their butt. I see the "Warning! Challenger Approaching" banner cover up today's announcement and my first though is "nah, nah you guys are just totally fucking with me here. It can't be. It fucking can't be". I scroll down in tiny, tiny increments and start to see the emblem taking shape, and the name "Sonic".
I take three seconds to just stop and say an audible "WHAT". Then scroll down and see the render, the screenshots and the description. I was in total disbelief and had the biggest fucking grin on my face. Even though the reveal video wasn't necessarily as hype as the Brawl reveal trailer, it was holy shit worthy for me to see Sonic in Smash Bros actually be a reality. Just totally came out of the left field for me, completely unanticipated.
I think the Sonic reveal cemented my enjoyment of unanticipated surprises, just when you least expect it. This is why I'd kind of enjoy if a Smash 4 DLC announcement was just randomly dropped on Twitter or something without any buildup.
InaSnowBoundLand
Member
I think the conversation about whether a character is "deserving" or not can be confusing because people usually do not try to explicitly define what that word means. Even when they do, it might be easier to just discuss one factor or trait that makes a character "deserving" or not -- "deservingness" is usually used as a bundle of them. Factors I have seen included under "deservingness" are:
The relative weight of each factor and whether it is included or not varies by fan opinion. Of course, there is also debate about how important these factors are to Sakurai himself. While opinions can vary about how important these factors are or should be for character selection (two different things), I am usually sympathetic to people discussing whether a character is "deserving" or not because I understand them as speaking about these individual factors. The confusion, however, suggests that it would be helpful if people using this language were more specific about what they mean. Playing fast and loose with this term is not helping communication. At the same time, I find some of the dismissal of this word/conversation as odd and somewhat pedantic.
TheDinoman's comments about Shovel Knight seemed to transparently concern the character's notability in general. I inferred this from the comparison to Bayonetta, Klonoa, and ToeJam and Earl. The last one is especially suggestive that what is being discussed is whether a character has longevity, renown, etc. I think it's unusually rigid and uncharitable to just read the word "deserving" and try to stop the conversation there when their reasoning was at least somewhat obvious. Of course, you could disagree with them about their claims or the implied importance of these factors, but I think it's pretty reasonable and not very novel to raise concerns about Shovel Knight's overall notability. Could TheDinoMan's remarks have been more explicit? Sure. In that specific case, however, I think the intent was apparent all the same.
- popularity in general and popularity as a choice for Smash Brothers (sales of games and series are sometimes used as a proxy)
- Relationship to Nintendo
- uniqueness relative to other gaming characters and those already included in Smash Brothers
- number of games / appearances
- longevity
- importance in their game series
- how their addition would affect the distribution of characters among franchises already in Smash Bros.
- critical acclaim
- how the character's "deservingness" score [some sort of ranking informed by these traits] compares to other characters' deservignness score inside and out of Smash Bros.
The relative weight of each factor and whether it is included or not varies by fan opinion. Of course, there is also debate about how important these factors are to Sakurai himself. While opinions can vary about how important these factors are or should be for character selection (two different things), I am usually sympathetic to people discussing whether a character is "deserving" or not because I understand them as speaking about these individual factors. The confusion, however, suggests that it would be helpful if people using this language were more specific about what they mean. Playing fast and loose with this term is not helping communication. At the same time, I find some of the dismissal of this word/conversation as odd and somewhat pedantic.
TheDinoman's comments about Shovel Knight seemed to transparently concern the character's notability in general. I inferred this from the comparison to Bayonetta, Klonoa, and ToeJam and Earl. The last one is especially suggestive that what is being discussed is whether a character has longevity, renown, etc. I think it's unusually rigid and uncharitable to just read the word "deserving" and try to stop the conversation there when their reasoning was at least somewhat obvious. Of course, you could disagree with them about their claims or the implied importance of these factors, but I think it's pretty reasonable and not very novel to raise concerns about Shovel Knight's overall notability. Could TheDinoMan's remarks have been more explicit? Sure. In that specific case, however, I think the intent was apparent all the same.
The Bankslammer
Member
mannn thinking about lip gets me thinking about the state of the panel de pon series, and then i get bummed out 
i think that she coulda had a pretty good chance if the series stayed on track (e.g. got new games, didn't constantly reskin everything). melee added a pretty surprising amount of panel de pon content for how small a series it was (namely lip's stick and kirby's garbage block), so it seems like someone was pretty fond of it. i mean, it was never really a big seller, but it had a super devoted community around that time.
i think that she coulda had a pretty good chance if the series stayed on track (e.g. got new games, didn't constantly reskin everything). melee added a pretty surprising amount of panel de pon content for how small a series it was (namely lip's stick and kirby's garbage block), so it seems like someone was pretty fond of it. i mean, it was never really a big seller, but it had a super devoted community around that time.
TheDinoman
Member
Yeah, my overall point here was that, when it comes to including non-Nintendo characters in what is predominately a Nintendo focused series, the character really ought to earn it. This doesn't mean they have to extremely relevant to Nintendo, they just need to be famous enough to warrant an inclusion, hence why I was okay with Snake's inclusion. Likewise, Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, and Ryu are all recognizable gaming all-stars in their own right. Characters like Shovel Knight and Klonoa on the other hand aren't at that point, that's why their inclusion would bother me.
Jawmuncher
Member
Nothing beats the snake reveal. Just because it was absolutely unexpected in all aspects. Sonic and Megaman with snake opening the gates for third party had their moments taken away do to that. Since at that point we knew it was only a matter of time.
As far as prestige is concerned, the only other third-party series Id be comfortable seeing in Smash Bros. are Resident Evil, Monster Hunter, Tekken, Final Fantasy, and Dragon Quest... and none of those have an obvious representative character or a character suited for Smash Bros. I'm 100% happy with the guest roster that we have. I don't want more third-parties added for the sake of it.
I don't think Resident Evil suffers from the problems you mentioned - as I've said before, I think Leon is the best choice due to being one of the series' most prominent protagonists as well as having a strong connection to Nintendo hardware - but I see your point with the others.
If Konami weren't an incomprehensible vortex of spite and misery, would you be comfortable with Bomberman or a Castlevania character?
I’m not opposed to Simon Belmont, but he’s probably on the lowest tier of what I consider to be Smash-worthy. I don’t think Bomberman should be included for reasons I don’t feel like going into right now — I’ve always just seen him as a budget character from a very minor company.
What about Final Fantasy Explorers?
I agree there aren't many third-party characters left on the same level as Snake, Sonic, Pac-Man, Mega Man and Ryu.
That being said, I think an approach I'd be okay with for future third-party characters would be those heavily associated with Nintendo. I suppose there aren't as many examples nowadays other than maybe Phoenix Wright or Professor Layton, but there are so many memorable NES characters that would be really cool to see alongside some of the cast. Simon Belmont is probably the biggest one, but I wouldn't mind seeing Bubble Bobble, Ninja Gaiden, Contra, River City Ransom, or Double Dragon represented down the road. With Capcom involved I wouldn't mind seeing Ghosts 'n Goblins, Bionic Commando, or Final Fight involved at some point either.
Again, I'm not clamoring for any of these characters and I don't think any of them are very likely, I just think it'd be a cool approach to third-party characters in the future since there really aren't very many big names left.
That being said, I think an approach I'd be okay with for future third-party characters would be those heavily associated with Nintendo. I suppose there aren't as many examples nowadays other than maybe Phoenix Wright or Professor Layton, but there are so many memorable NES characters that would be really cool to see alongside some of the cast. Simon Belmont is probably the biggest one, but I wouldn't mind seeing Bubble Bobble, Ninja Gaiden, Contra, River City Ransom, or Double Dragon represented down the road. With Capcom involved I wouldn't mind seeing Ghosts 'n Goblins, Bionic Commando, or Final Fight involved at some point either.
Again, I'm not clamoring for any of these characters and I don't think any of them are very likely, I just think it'd be a cool approach to third-party characters in the future since there really aren't very many big names left.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Commander Video assist trophy please
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
woopWOOP
Member
Oh wow, never heard of that one before. So it's Final Fantasy in Monster Hunter style? Looks kinda neat!
No peppy little Chocobo to be seen though
Yeah I wouldn't be opposed to that either, I just don't think they'd bother licensing characters like those (except maybe the Capcom ones since they seem to be super tight when it comes to Smash).
Wow.
Come back when all those non "budget character"s have an anime or two and a crossover with Wario.
also, in some ways Bomberman was the Smash of its day:
Smash: Four player, arena based knock out game.
Bomberman: Four player, arena based knock out game.
TheDinoman
Member
In terms of popularity and impact, I'd say Mario Kart was the Smash of its day. Hell, that series is actually more popular than Smash.
MrSaturn99
Member
After all this leak burnout and "deserve to be in" talk, I think we all need to just sit down andwatch this.
Slime Scholar
Member
I feel like asking for a third party character to be from a big franchise and asking for them to have a lot of significant appearances on Nintendo systems isn't leaving that many options. There's a ton of guest fighters I think would be really cool, but they all fail on at least one of those criteria. Barring the completely ridiculous choices, I don't think many characters are "unworthy."
This isn't a response to anyone in particular. I just see this sentiment a lot, and I feel like the bar needs to be lowered at some point.
This isn't a response to anyone in particular. I just see this sentiment a lot, and I feel like the bar needs to be lowered at some point.
TheDinoman
Member
I don't think third parties should be included just to fill a quota. They should only be added if they're a special deal. And if there aren't any special third party characters left, perhaps its time to stop adding them, I say.
Geminosity
Member
I think the majority of attempts to specify 'deservedness' are really just exercises in intellectual dishonesty because they're almost always just someone creating a thin web of logic to support why characters they want should be in and ones they either don't care for or outright dislike shouldn't.
The number of cases where someone started out with no characters in mind and followed any kind of rating system to it's conclusion to create a list is negligible, it's almost always rather a case of creating the logic afterwards to justify what you already wanted/thought :/
This is why when anyone talks about how much any character 'deserves' to be in or not I have and probably always will be dismissive. Just be honest with yourselves: in most cases it boils down to you liking or not liking characters regardless of the explanation you come up for those feelings after they've already formed
The number of cases where someone started out with no characters in mind and followed any kind of rating system to it's conclusion to create a list is negligible, it's almost always rather a case of creating the logic afterwards to justify what you already wanted/thought :/
This is why when anyone talks about how much any character 'deserves' to be in or not I have and probably always will be dismissive. Just be honest with yourselves: in most cases it boils down to you liking or not liking characters regardless of the explanation you come up for those feelings after they've already formed
balladofwindfishes
Member
If we went by who "deserved" to be in Smash, characters like Palutena, Sheik, Jigglypuff and Falco wouldn't be in Smash, and yet those characters are popular and the game is better because they're in the game.
The deserve argument has always been pretty laughable, but literally all of the characters you mentioned are more deserving than most characters...
balladofwindfishes
Member
In the grand scheme of things, those characters are not important at all to Nintendo. Arguably, even the third parties in Smash are more important.
I actually had a hard time even thinking of irrelevant Nintendo characters that weren't just bonus clone characters, though. I only added Falco because I think he could have gotten into Smash even without being a last minute Melee clone.
Slime Scholar
Member
With that last sentence: I hadn't just meant third party characters, I meant characters in general. Sorry for the confusion.
I don't think there needs to be some sort of 3rd party quota, but I think a shift toward guest fighters is going to happen if this series goes on long enough.
Green Mamba
Member
I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting some sort of quality control when it comes to guest characters lest we want Playstation All-Stars nonsense.
Geminosity
Member
Yeah, a cast of total nobodies like Parappa the Rappa, Heihachi Mishima and Kratos would be tragic wouldn't it?
PSA's roster problems are more related to the fact that most of playstation's major characters aren't first party and all the licensing issues that lead to them not getting some of the biggest ones or having to make weird concessions to get them (e.g. double cole)
The lack of Crash Bandicoot and snake and whatnot wasn't a 'quality control' issue
PSA is a pretty bad game though and you should feel bad for forcing me to defend it
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