TKOFromTokyo
Member
Sony upscaling is the best in the business.
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Sony’s 2021 TV lineup runs Google TV and fully embraces HDMI 2.1
Sony upscaling is the best in the business.
Oh thats great to hear! The Apple TV upscaler is great but I've only been using 1080p displays thus far. Hopefully Apple TV on a Sony 4k would look nice even for my 480p content.
dotnotbot
Member
It doesn't, VRR support will be added with update just like on PS5.
Yup, Reality Creation feature gets a lot of praise on A90J, it should work the same for entire line-up.
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Kuranghi
Gold Member
Nah not at all, full-array local dimming is preferred by enthusiasts over edge-lit because HDR is a big thing and HDR really need FALD to look great. HDR is in part about brightening up areas of the screen so if the TV can only light up a column of the screen instead of a specific rectangle-shaped area on the screen it will either cause a leaking of the light (blooming/clouding) into the adjacent parts of the image that aren't supposed to be that bright. The smaller the individual backlight zones on the TV are the brighter the TV can make things without causing blooming, if the TV is good it will dim the highlight to stop the blooming, but only to a certain degree because to eliminate all blooming it would have to massively darken the element.
So basically don't buy an edge-lit TV or monitor if your main reason for buying is for HDR. Another thing is that generally 85 series and below will only have a peak brightness of 300-400 nits anyway, which isn't really enough to display HDR highlights correctly even if it did have a FALD backlight.
You really need to go to 49/50" for good HDR because thats the size where the 9-series starts. If you can go to 49" then PM me with your rough location I'll help you search your local area for an older set that will be much cheaper and better than the current year models.
Kuranghi
Gold Member
Thanks for posting. I really just want to see someone compare XR to X1U (and X1E if relevant), we already know it has 32 zones again and yes the algorithm is fantastic but 32 zones is 32 zones. Their will be obvious blooming when you are in the dark and watching challenging content just because the zones are so *big, that or everything will be dimmed to stop blooming and in that case it kinda defeats a lot of the point of FALD. You might as well buy OLED in that case as its just as bright if not brighter.
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Kuranghi
Gold Member
When the 950 series had 60 zones maybe (the 950g), but the 950h is 48 zones, like the 900F, and in the video you are talking about he says the HDR and blooming was best 930e. SDR is crazy on your TV, brighter than even ZD9. I love 930e its what I was going to buy in 55" before I got a deal on a 65" ZD9.
Yea I think Sony ZD9 is the best Tv sony ever made, no tv on the market today can beat it as a whole. 1800-1900nits, 648 local dimming zones with great black levels, fantastic Image processing. Its was just so expensive, if you could find a deal on it you were very fortunate. Everything else since has effectively been a downgrade. Sony's Xwide angle, improved viewing angles but sacrificed contrast. Also on top of that there tvs don't get as bright unless you go for Sony's latest 8k tvs.
Honestly if HDMI 2.1 isnt toooo much a concern for someone the 75" Sony x940e can be had for $2k on Amazon (originally $5k I think) and blow away most tvs today.
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dolabla
Member
Page is up/you can order the X90J (except the 50" at BB as the add to cart button is not showing yet) from Best Buy and Amazon now.
I did notice one of the authorized dealers from Sony's site has a lower price listed than Best Buy and Amazon for the 50" at $1,098. Could be a mistake, dunno: https://www.videoandaudiocenter.com/SONY-XR55X90J-55-Inch-LED-4K-UHD-HDR-Smart-TV-p/xr50x90j.htm
Amazon.com: Sony X90J 50 Inch TV: BRAVIA XR Full Array LED 4K Ultra HD Smart Google TV with Dolby Vision HDR and Alexa Compatibility XR50X90J- 2021 Model: Electronics
Amazon.com: Sony X90J 50 Inch TV: BRAVIA XR Full Array LED 4K Ultra HD Smart Google TV with Dolby Vision HDR and Alexa Compatibility XR50X90J- 2021 Model: Electronics
www.amazon.com
Amazon.com: Sony X90J 55 Inch TV: BRAVIA XR Full Array LED 4K Ultra HD Smart Google TV with Dolby Vision HDR and Alexa Compatibility XR55X90J- 2021 Model: Electronics
Buy Sony X90J 55 Inch TV: BRAVIA XR Full Array LED 4K Ultra HD Smart Google TV with Dolby Vision HDR and Alexa Compatibility XR55X90J- 2021 Model: LED & LCD TVs - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases
www.amazon.com
Amazon.com: Sony X90J 65 Inch TV: BRAVIA XR Full Array LED 4K Ultra HD Smart Google TV with Dolby Vision HDR and Alexa Compatibility XR65X90J- 2021 Model: Electronics
Amazon.com: Sony X90J 65 Inch TV: BRAVIA XR Full Array LED 4K Ultra HD Smart Google TV with Dolby Vision HDR and Alexa Compatibility XR65X90J- 2021 Model: Electronics
www.amazon.com
I did notice one of the authorized dealers from Sony's site has a lower price listed than Best Buy and Amazon for the 50" at $1,098. Could be a mistake, dunno: https://www.videoandaudiocenter.com/SONY-XR55X90J-55-Inch-LED-4K-UHD-HDR-Smart-TV-p/xr50x90j.htm
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
858(75 inch)and 1000 Zones(100 inch).
It's not the zones with the Z9D as it also uses discreet LED local dimming ie every LED can be dimmed/brightened which is thousands. Backlight Master Drive was a beast.
Bojanglez
The Amiga Brotherhood
Doesn't look like they are mentioning VRR in any of their marketing material on this page, which is disappointing/worrying.
dolabla
Member
I think it's going to come. Otherwise, all hell will break loose, lol. I'm not too worried to be honest.
The PS5 doesn't even have VRR yet so I've wondered if they're planning to drop them at the same time.
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Kuranghi
Gold Member
Vincent Teoh said he counted around 1000 zones in his 100" ZD9 video, but I think he said Sony engineers told him he was wrong and wouldn't say how many there actually were. Display Specifications say 1508, which is a crazy amount but I worked took the total area of the 65", 75" and 100" (in sq inches) and then divided that by the nunber of zones - 646, 858 and 1508 respectively - and came out to very similar zone sizes on all models so I think its probably accurate:
99.5" Sony KD-100ZD9 - Specifications
Specifications of Sony KD-100ZD9. Display: 99.5 in, Super MVA, Direct LED (Full-Array Local Dimming), 3840 x 2160 pixels, Viewing angles (H/V): 178 ° / 178 °, Refresh rate: 100 Hz / 120 Hz, Frame interpolation: 1200 XR (Motionflow XR), TV tuner: Analog (NTSC/PAL/SECAM), DVB-T, DVB-T2, DVB-C...
www.displayspecifications.com
Both the 65" and 75" were ~2.79 sq inches, the 100" was ~2.83 sq inches, if you divide by 1536 its ~2.77 sq inches but maybe 1536 doesn't split as well as 1508, I can't be bothered to work it out.
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
People have problems counting the zones because of the discrete LED(thousands of LED's) control.Vincent Teoh said he counted around 1000 zones in his 100" ZD9 video, but I think he said Sony engineers told him he was wrong and wouldn't say how many there actually were. Display Specifications say 1508, which is a crazy amount but I worked took the total area of the 65", 75" and 100" (in sq inches) and then divided that by the nunber of zones - 646, 858 and 1508 respectively - and came out to very similar zone sizes on all models so I think its probably accurate:
99.5" Sony KD-100ZD9 - Specifications
Specifications of Sony KD-100ZD9. Display: 99.5 in, Super MVA, Direct LED (Full-Array Local Dimming), 3840 x 2160 pixels, Viewing angles (H/V): 178 ° / 178 °, Refresh rate: 100 Hz / 120 Hz, Frame interpolation: 1200 XR (Motionflow XR), TV tuner: Analog (NTSC/PAL/SECAM), DVB-T, DVB-T2, DVB-C...www.displayspecifications.com
Both the 65" and 75" were ~2.79 sq inches, the 100" was ~2.83 sq inches, if you divide by 1536 its ~2.77 sq inches but maybe 1536 doesn't split as well as 1508, I can't be bothered to work it out.
Kuranghi
Gold Member
I saw the inside of a 75" ZD9 at a caravan, they had it physically cut away so you could see inside and LED clusters looked very unique, like flowers with the LEDs arranged as the petals. I couldn't risk taking a picture as they were pretty serious about showing it and I can't find one on the internet, closest thing is the old tradeshow videos that compared a full set to one with the LCD stack removed and just showing what the backlight was doing.
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
Wow! I been trying to see one gutted.
Kuranghi
Gold Member
For people considering VRR a necessity in a gaming TV right now, are stutters from v-sync dropping frames, screen tearing or microstuttering/frame-pacing issues something you really hated before VRR came along or are you getting it because its the latest thing?
On console I think its objectively a net gain because you can't control the games output in many ways so this gives you a way to actually control tearing or stuttering, but on PC I'd bet optimising the v-sync/fps caps and other tweaks are going to give you a better end result that just relying on VRR to fix it all, since garbage in, garbage out, so its better to fix it at the source (if you can) than to put a bandaid on it.
Having said that Unity Engine games often have these problems you can't fix yourself, I wonder if VRR would be any help in those situations, if the frametime spikes to 70-80ms I pretty sure you'd still notice the drop even if it was within the VRR range. From what I've read it seems to be more about counteracting tiny/small dips below refresh rate, ie 57-60 or 114-120.
One other question for VRR/G-Sync users: Even though you don't get the lag that comes from normal v-sync and the visual stutter from it delaying the frame when it drops below refresh rate can you actually perceive the difference between 55 and 60? When doing a medium-speed camera pan as an example, I'm sure during the thick of it, when whipping the camera the difference is hard to notice even if it is visible.
On console I think its objectively a net gain because you can't control the games output in many ways so this gives you a way to actually control tearing or stuttering, but on PC I'd bet optimising the v-sync/fps caps and other tweaks are going to give you a better end result that just relying on VRR to fix it all, since garbage in, garbage out, so its better to fix it at the source (if you can) than to put a bandaid on it.
Having said that Unity Engine games often have these problems you can't fix yourself, I wonder if VRR would be any help in those situations, if the frametime spikes to 70-80ms I pretty sure you'd still notice the drop even if it was within the VRR range. From what I've read it seems to be more about counteracting tiny/small dips below refresh rate, ie 57-60 or 114-120.
One other question for VRR/G-Sync users: Even though you don't get the lag that comes from normal v-sync and the visual stutter from it delaying the frame when it drops below refresh rate can you actually perceive the difference between 55 and 60? When doing a medium-speed camera pan as an example, I'm sure during the thick of it, when whipping the camera the difference is hard to notice even if it is visible.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
My current TV is edge lit. Is it bad? Not really, I really like it. But FALD would be slapping you with those LED's directly instead, so more impactful HDR. You should see it in store and decide for yourself, but for 43" I can't see any better TV around.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Man the minimal blooming and improved colors seem to be a great upgrade over the already one of the best bangs of the buck in X900H! Excited for more in-depth reviews!
Bo_Hazem
Banned
I honestly have the 8.0 version on my 2016 model, didn't have issue with Android as people mention. Mine is Sony X70D and it gets updates until now.
Kuranghi
Gold Member
The input lag is affected by the picture mode settings, so if you are in Game mode then no need to worry about which HDMI port you are in. If the device can output 4K60 (ie not X1S, base PS4) then put it into HDMI 2 or 3 and then go into Settings > Watching TV* > External Inputs > HDMI Enhanced Format > set to Enhanced.
*If your TV isn't updated to latest firmware then it might be a slightly different path to the menu but the first and the last 3 steps should be the same.
The input lag on your set is ~24ms at 4K@60, current sets are getting 16-18ms in that output mode. Lower when in 4K@120hz modes.
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Zoro7
Banned
I use Google TV, whilst it’s not bad I don’t think it’s as smooth as Apple TV. It also doesn’t have all the apps I use on Apple TV.
Classicrockfan
Banned
I’m in the look out for a new tv might get themangolia 50in x90j .
Bojanglez
The Amiga Brotherhood
I use Android TV daily on my current TV via my Nvidia Shield because the Samsung OS and App support is so shit.
Google TV looks like it's a step up with some improved content finding features.
Kerotan
Member
Thanks. I'm on Ps5 and I've all those things done. Just wanted to make sure.
So if a game like warzone is 1080p 60fps I get more input lag then if they upgraded the game to be 4k 60? Does it have to be native or just above 1080p, how do dynamic resolutions affect this sort of thing?
Kuranghi
Gold Member
Your TV does have more input lag at 1080p60 than 4K60, about 46ms, but thats not an issue here unless you set the PS5 to output 1080p. Otherwise every game will have its internal resolution and it will send that to the PS5, which will then upscale it to 4K.
So as long as PS5 output is set to 2160p then the input lag will be 26ms in game mode (As long as you didnt engage any image enhancement settings that aren't on by default in game mode). All the dynamic resolution scaling and whatnot happens internally, as far as your TV is concerned every game coming out of the PS5 is 2160p.
If you plug a PC into the TV you can set the GPU to do all the scaling and then the TV will just receive 2160p all the time like the PS5 does.
Bojanglez
The Amiga Brotherhood
X90J prices confirmed
Original: Sony Press Release
Seems pretty competitive to me. Almost impulse buy price for the 55".
Edit: Press release from Sony also mentions VRR available by firmware update, so at least they have reconfirmed.
Source: What Hi-Fi
Original: Sony Press Release
Seems pretty competitive to me. Almost impulse buy price for the 55".
Edit: Press release from Sony also mentions VRR available by firmware update, so at least they have reconfirmed.
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Kuranghi
Gold Member
Yeah thats pretty good compared to launch prices prior to 2020, if you are waiting til Black Friday then £899 is the perfect price point for the 55" imo, £999 is also great though. If you can wait til BF then at least try and wait til August when I estimage it will be ~£1099.
Bojanglez
The Amiga Brotherhood
I could wait until about £999 but then would I pay £250 to have it 3 or 4 months earlier? Maybe
In reality I don't like paying RRP for stuff, so will look out for some kind of deal, even if it is just for my own psychological satisfaction.
metareferential
Member
Is the ps5 finally able to use vrr?
I could see myself buying one of these after LG's 2021 oled fiasco.
I could see myself buying one of these after LG's 2021 oled fiasco.
Kuranghi
Gold Member
No and it won't for a long time imo.
What are you referring to with the bolded?
metareferential
Member
Problems with displaying 4k120hz and hdr correctly. Maybe it's fixed by now,but I remember an hdtvtest video saying it wasn't going to be fixable with a firmware update.
Kuranghi
Gold Member
Ah okay I get you, its not fixed unfortunately, its an OLED HW issue they've say. They have added in a band-aid fix for the issue where you can change gamma values for different percentage stimuli to try and mitigate it but I don't know if the average user should mess with that without knowledge of what they are changing.
I personally wouldn't buy an OLED TV for VRR right now, LCD seems to do fine it but then you are limited to Shamsungs which have had a crappy IQ in their game picture mode for years now (I presume it was the only way for them to reduce input lag below the limit they had hit with the Q9F) and LG LCDs are IPS low-contrast panels so a last resort compared to good VA FALDs.
Even if Sony ever add it to X900H/X90J with a firmware update those are still mid-range sets and OLED will smash their PQ to pieces in almost every way. The Samsung models with VRR have much more of a PQ advantage over OLED (In the ways LCD generally have an advantage over OLED, no ABL, much higher peak brightness and colour saturation can be better in HDR) than Sony's VRR LCDs.
mitchman
Gold Member
That was fixed ages ago.
Kuranghi
Gold Member
Thanks for this. I tried 24ms (which is what my TV adds at 4K) and I got 18/25. Tried 14ms and I didnt even finish the test because I couldn't really tell the difference anymore. I'm on a shitty logitech mouse though, not sure it is 1000hz.
StateofMajora
Have a go on this and see what results you get.edit - I'm a wally, I was running at 60hz for the test, probably why I couldn't tell difference at 14ms. I'm going to try it again but at 1440p@120hz just now.
edit 2 - 1440p@120hz messed up the scaling of the program somehow and the left side was bigger than the right side so I went down to 1080p@120hz and that was fine. I got the following results:
50ms - 25/25
36ms - 24/25
24ms - 24/25
16ms - 10/25 & 9/25
10ms - Can't really tell the difference, feels like I can sometimes but I think its just a placebo.
Are they sometimes setting both sides to the same input lag? Because I felt like that was happening too, made me second guess myself leading to those 24/25 results on 36ms & 24ms after I aced the 50ms test.
So the 46ms input lag I get at 1080p60 (So that doesn't apply to my PS4 Pro, PS5 or PC, only my Switch) is definitely noticeable by me, but this is on a mouse, with v-sync off, so I think analogue stick lag, animation/internal lag and wireless controller lag must be making up the bulk of the lag I feel in those games otherwise Mario Odyssey would feel awful, when it feels great to me, I never felt like lag made me miss a jump at least.
I have a feeling there are many factors that could influence this test though, I did add love.exe to nvidia profile inspector and force disable v-sync just in case that mattered. The forum post mentioned adding an fps counter to the grey bar but I'm not sure how I do that.
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dolabla
Member
55" and 65" X90J in stock and ready to ship on Amazon for anybody who wants to take the nosedive and see how the new set is :
:Amazon.com: Sony X90J 55 Inch TV: BRAVIA XR Full Array LED 4K Ultra HD Smart Google TV with Dolby Vision HDR and Alexa Compatibility XR55X90J- 2021 Model: Electronics
Buy Sony X90J 55 Inch TV: BRAVIA XR Full Array LED 4K Ultra HD Smart Google TV with Dolby Vision HDR and Alexa Compatibility XR55X90J- 2021 Model: LED & LCD TVs - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases
www.amazon.com
Kuranghi
Gold Member
Thanks again for that mate, very useful!
I stopped caring about input lag when I was playing the 2D Metroids in SNES9X with 1 frame of run ahead and exclusive fullscreen, in Super Metroid I could perform Shinesparks after door transitions where you had a miniscule amount of time to trigger it, at that point I thought if I've removed almost all the other lag and the display is still adding 25ms then thats gravy for me.
I can see why it matters much more at higher refresh rates ofc, but I have no interest in 120hz right now really. Except in very specific cases where the game doesn't get a meaninful image quality boost from going to 4K from 1440p then I might play in 1440p120 to get more responsiveness, but we're talking <5 games probably.
StateofMajora
Banned
Kuranghi
bro I got all 25 correct with my shitty trackpad on my laptop xD I was clicking the side that felt more responsive so it said I got 0 out of 25 lol but I was supposed to click the side that was more laggy, so all correct!
Edit : Oh, I guess there was more to the test than that, i'll mess with it later to see what the lowest I notice is.
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Kuranghi
Gold Member
I was clicking the side that felt more responsive so it said I got 0 out of 25 lol but I was supposed to click the side that was more laggy, so all correct!
Your misconception is funny but fair enough... mine was retarded lol: The first time I did it I though I was supposed to click quickly back and forth between the sides
Anyway was that at 50ms? Thats too easy!
Use w and s on the keyboard to reduce it down to something lower.
I wonder if a trackpad would generally have more or less lag than a hardwired mouse
I'm not sure.
Kuranghi
Gold Member
When those white screens hit between intros and cutscenes...
The funniest one on my TV is the Ghost of Tsushima map, its so bright I have to turn the light on in the room if I'm going to be looking at it for more than 20 seconds. The funny part is they have a UI brightness option... but it only goes up
8bitpill
Member
It's painful. I have on dynamic setting for our TV and when anything bright happens its like walking out of into a snow field on a sunny day.The funniest one on my TV is the Ghost of Tsushima map, its so bright I have to turn the light on in the room if I'm going to be looking at it for more than 20 seconds. The funny part is they have a UI brightness option... but it only goes up
Kuranghi
Gold Member
Ah right, Dynamic picture mode is really only for the shop floor in my opinion, but I know a lot of people prefer it over the cinema/movie/natural picture mode, different names depending on brand.
Aside from it being duller/less contrasty than Dynamic, how do you feel about the image when you switch to the movie/cinema mode on your TV?
If it looks too orange/warm then I recommend giving it 30 minutes before you decide to switch it back, it takes a few minutes for your eyes to get used to the warmer colour tone of the more accurate mode, also the image will not seem dull or flat your eyes adjust to the new brightness contrast.
What TV model is it? I'd be happy to give you basic, accurate settings via PM or here, but no worries if you are addicted to dynamic/eye-searing pain:
For a laugh do this: Try the 2017 game Echo on your TV in dynamic mode (https://store.steampowered.com/agecheck/app/551770/) thats got to be far and away the game with the craziest, brightest, output I've ever seen. The bits where you go into a sort of "light-tunnel" was literally eye-searing for me in my calibrated mode, I changed it to Vivid picture mode and now my eyes are ceramic:
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StateofMajora
Banned
No idea bro, but I left it on whatever the default lag was for each test. I know the different slides had different levels of lag so it wasn’t just 50 vs 25 all the time or whatever. I think? I kinda just rushed through lol.Your misconception is funny but fair enough... mine was retarded lol: The first time I did it I though I was supposed to click quickly back and forth between the sides
Anyway was that at 50ms? Thats too easy!
Use w and s on the keyboard to reduce it down to something lower.
I wonder if a trackpad would generally have more or less lag than a hardwired mouse
Anywho, will try again on lunch
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8bitpill
Member
I don't prefer Dynamic and will switch it up for different media. But our living room is bright with huge bay windows and skylights (it's a good thing, just bright). I will put on Dynamic during the day and just roll with it during the night at times. When it's super offensive, I will turn it to something less eye scorching.Ah right, Dynamic picture mode is really only for the shop floor in my opinion, but I know a lot of people prefer it over the cinema/movie/natural picture mode, different names depending on brand.
Aside from it being duller/less contrasty than Dynamic, how do you feel about the image when you switch to the movie/cinema mode on your TV?
If it looks too orange/warm then I recommend giving it 30 minutes before you decide to switch it back, it takes a few minutes for your eyes to get used to the warmer colour tone of the more accurate mode, also the image will not seem dull or flat your eyes adjust to the new brightness contrast.
What TV model is it? I'd be happy to give you basic, accurate settings via PM or here, but no worries if you are addicted to dynamic/eye-searing pain:
For a laugh do this: Try the 2017 game Echo on your TV in dynamic mode (https://store.steampowered.com/agecheck/app/551770/) thats got to be far and away the game with the craziest, brightest, output I've ever seen. The bits where you go into a sort of "light-tunnel" was literally eye-searing for me in my calibrated mode, I changed it to Vivid picture mode and now my eyes are ceramic:
I'm just going to start wearing sunglasses while I'm viewing these Monstrosities that we call Televisions today. Where is my super thin screen that blends into the wall? It's 2021 and the future kind of sucks.
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