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Gonna go for my last round next weekend with my buddies coming back from holiday.
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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #3) - That's Not How the Force Works
- Thread starter Bobby Roberts
- Start date
2x
Gonna go for my last round next weekend with my buddies coming back from holiday.
The One and Done
Member
5 times in theatres so far. Not kidding. Loved it more each time and one of the best things in subsequent viewing are audience reactions.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
The Moebius style animation is actually pretty sweet, but at the same time it bother's me that they never made actual films in that style.
2 times. Both times great. My 2nd experience was better than the first. I just appreciated everything more and the movie didn't seem to zoom by as quick. I may go a third as well.
Atraveller
Banned
Four times, last one in IMAX 3D.
Randolph Freelander
Member
Alx
Member
But why would everybody want to get that saber ? It only makes sense for Kylo Ren as a memorabilia, and then why not letting him have it after all. Or maybe Solo thinks it belongs to a Museum...
Silphonica
Banned
The One and Done;191090684 said:
I'm looking forward to my second viewing then.
I wish i had imax near me
I honestly don't remember the cartoon segment being that bad. I guess time smudges everything.
Silphonica
Banned
I dont think I was alive at this time.
Im glad I wasnt.
In fact Im happy to go back and watch the ot and pt now being relatively fresh eyes, and watch tfa during the wave of hype.
It's my first movie hype Ive really experienced. I like it.
excelsiorlef
Member
No Jest Chillin gave you bad info.
They found The Resistance base by tracking the recon ship Leia had sent out to scout the base. They followed it as it returned to Resistance home base.
This is flat out said in the movie in one of their blatant info dump scenes that somehow people apprently don't listen to.
Ok thanks. To be honest, that doesn't really sound much better at all.
Looking back, Kylo could have just interrogated/used the force on Poe for it right in the beginning like he did for the map/BB-8 information.
excelsiorlef
Member
Jesus... you're just dedicated to finding fault.
What is the problem with tracking a ship?
It's a perfect line because it also explains why a recon ship was able to survive reconning Starkiller base. The FO let them live, a tactical error in retrospect.
When they had Poe captive they had no plans to fire the weapon at all anytime soon so they weren't even looking for their base, just the map. Also Ren never showed any sign of caring about that part of the fight (that's Hux's territory) he was always 100% about finding Luke.
Ford wanted to kill off Han in Return of the Jedi. I also doubt he wanted to make more than one more SW film.
In short I'm betting Ford insisted on Han being killed off if it wasn't already scripted that way.
excelsiorlef
Member
IMAX is an amazing experience.
Blue Ninja
Member
Went to my second viewing last night. A lot of fun. I already had some people's nitpicking influence the way I watched some scenes, didn't stop me from enjoying the full package again. It's just an excellently crafted movie with some really great moments.
Some scenes actually made more sense. Like, now that I knew Starkiller Base could keep its charged energy stored, it wasn't too much of a stretch to imagine it having absorbed some sun off-screen a while ago and moving to another system afterwards. Then when the kill order was given, it had a round in the chamber and another sun to absorb immediately next to it.
It's also fairly obvious Rey is outmatched by Kylo Ren at first, only when she stops and 'lets in' the Force does she finally overpower him. One funny thing I noticed is that the way Rey uses the lightsaber reminded me a lot of Palpatine during the PT. Uses the same thrusting motions and everything, it kinda stood out.
Only thing the movie really needed was an extra line of dialog from Rey during the "It's true, all of it" scene. Something like "I heard they could control people's minds" or something like that, to lay the seeds for the scene with Daniel Craigtrooper. Which, by the way, was even more hilarious now that I knew who was under the helmet.
Second viewing also helped me pay attention to some more elements. I own the Art of the Force Awakens, so it was cool focusing on the background of the cantina scene. Paid attention to all the cameos this time around, too: so cool hearing Alec Guiness and Ewan McGregor in the same scene.
Can't wait for this movie to come out on Blu-ray.
Some scenes actually made more sense. Like, now that I knew Starkiller Base could keep its charged energy stored, it wasn't too much of a stretch to imagine it having absorbed some sun off-screen a while ago and moving to another system afterwards. Then when the kill order was given, it had a round in the chamber and another sun to absorb immediately next to it.
It's also fairly obvious Rey is outmatched by Kylo Ren at first, only when she stops and 'lets in' the Force does she finally overpower him. One funny thing I noticed is that the way Rey uses the lightsaber reminded me a lot of Palpatine during the PT. Uses the same thrusting motions and everything, it kinda stood out.
Only thing the movie really needed was an extra line of dialog from Rey during the "It's true, all of it" scene. Something like "I heard they could control people's minds" or something like that, to lay the seeds for the scene with Daniel Craigtrooper. Which, by the way, was even more hilarious now that I knew who was under the helmet.
Second viewing also helped me pay attention to some more elements. I own the Art of the Force Awakens, so it was cool focusing on the background of the cantina scene. Paid attention to all the cameos this time around, too: so cool hearing Alec Guiness and Ewan McGregor in the same scene.
Can't wait for this movie to come out on Blu-ray.
Can't really check it now but didn't the second teaser include a scene of Maz passing the lightsaber to Rey, which is in line with what's in the script leaks but doesn't happen in the final movie?
I agree it does make more sense, but I guess they went with map piece being the central mcguffin of the story to make it easier to follow for newcomers.
I think it was really the reason they showed the nasty kills with the bowcaster. To show how powerful it is and therefor show how handicapped (and powerful) Ren is when he gets hit.
JimiNutz
Banned
When Ren gets hit by the bowcaster he's pretty far away too.
The bowcaster is launching troopers when it hits them at close range.
Han using the bowcaster was one of the things I was confused about - I'm sure Wookie bowcasters are too strong/heavy/powerful to be used by humans, but maybe that was referenced in something that's non-canon now?
heliosRAzi
Banned
It's not. The speed that Luke and Rey learn the Force are drastically different. Luke wants to learn how to be a Jedi at the beginning of the second act, is taught about the Force before the halfway point, and then uses the Force to help him make the shot in the climax of ANH.
Rey, on the other hand, learns she's Force sensitive towards the end of the second act in TFA. She blocks Kylo's Force interrogation, JMTs the guard, and then kicks Kylo's butt all in the climax of the third act.
One is stretched out over most of a movie, the other is compressed into the latter part of a movie.
Perhaps she was tapping into the Dark Side and that gave her the power she needed. But the only time she looked like she was about to tap into it was after she already sliced Kylo's face.
As for the Jakku escape, she crashes it a couple of times and then in about two minutes, she's pulling off stunts better than the hyped up Poe.
There were way too many callbacks and the pacing hurt the characters.
I was with the movie up until those planets got destroyed. That just took me out of the movie altogether.
Not realistic; believable. Believable is the word you're looking for and the same applies to males. "You can make people believe the impossible, but not the improbable." The internal rules of the universe must be constant. You could break the rules, but if it stretches believability too far, it will need to be explained.
You guys keep trying to push the narrative that this is all happening because we're sexists when it's far from the truth. There are many females in traditionally male roles that I love. My favorite is Furiosa from Fury Road. That is a great, complex character. There's also the Bride, Ripley, Anderson and Ma-Ma from Dredd, Dr. Ellie Arroway, Major Kusanaginfrom GitS, and Balsa from Moribito. It SUCKS that there are fewer women in these types of roles and I want there to be more. There NEEDS to be more. But I don't know want them to be shallow. I don't like it when the main characters are shallow. I give the same scrutiny to men. Shallow main characters suck.
To me, Rey is shallow. That's my personal opinion. Finn is as well. There's no complexity to them, nothing to really chew on except hopeful speculation and tired ideas, like old chewing gum. The flavors all gone once I get past the diversity angle.
Grover Cleveland
Member
She's actually passing the lightsaber to Leia in that clip.
In the original cut, Maz had one more scene after the attack on her castle where she interacts with Leia after the Resistance arrives.
In Washington DC? I went there at the 10:45pm viewing and it wasn't that bad! Must have been no more than 40 people in there (including kids).
It was a strange directed since Han and Chewie are together for ages and the first time Han uses it in TFA, he seems suprised how strong/good it is... like he never used it before in their 40 years together. Maybe he never did. I'm sure he did in one of the EU books i've have read.
There's some foreshadowing when Han asks Rey is she wants to "join" him flying the Millennium Falcon. "Chewy likes you".
No, he uses the force at the halfway point, a couple seconds after he learns about it. He uses it more impressively (with no further practice than at the halfway point) at the end, but he uses it first a couple seconds after he first learns about it.
I'd like to see your draw some comparisons in your evaluation of the other female characters. Where is the justification for Furiousa being a sharp shooter? Why is she driving the War Rig? What is the justification for her being a high ranking officer in a male dominated army? How does Ripley know how to operate that giant robot thing? Why is the Bride the best at sword fighting when they all had the same teacher? (For the record, this is rhetorical. I am making this point because simply saying you like other female characters doesn't mean your drawing actual comparisons. I'm not interested in comparing Rey to other female characters, but if you are going to start that line of conversation, do it right)
Saying "I like female characters" is essentially the "I'm not racist, I have plenty of black friends" argument. I really don't go in for the 'your only thinking less of Rey because she's a woman argument' because it's not really provable or disprovable on an individual basis if a person is not being explicit about it. However, there are studies that show sexism resides in people who think they're not sexist and especially in people who firmly believe they aren't under the influence of sexism. Insofar as that goes, anyone who insists that it's not a sexism thing is, at the very least, statistically likelier to have been influenced by sexism. I'm not saying that's you. I'm saying that you have no way of knowing that, not entirely for yourself, and certainly not for other people. Even if you're coming down on this with sexist free judgements, you can't say that for the general population.
So if you want to start a conversation of drawing comparisons to other female heroes, draw actual comparisons instead of using it as a byline to try to excuse yourself from the sexism argument.
Edit: and as far as representation goes...why shouldn't they be shallow? We have plenty of shallow male heroes that are still appreciated icons of our pop culture. Representation for women doesn't equal quality writing, it just means women are represented more. That means they are in the moronic blockbusters that don't have an ounce of creativity in them as much as the more sophisticated stories like Ghost in the Shell. A female character being the main hero of a michael bay directed Transformers movie that is as stupid as any other MB transformer movie would be positive representation, letting women participate in the gross stupidity of the bottom of the barrel blockbuster tripe as much as men.
If your argument was that women should only be represented as deep and well written characters, then that in itself is sexism as men aren't bound by that standard, celebrated as deep characters AND shallow and immature wish fulfillment aggrandizing fantasies.
Saw it Friday, really liked it. I'll have to watch it a few more times. Some parts had me kinda not feeling it but overall very good.
Fin character was excellent, really good casting there imo. He made the movie for me. Poe was solid and they can build on him. Ray was also solid although she was given some scenes that were goofy later in the movie. In the beginning she was great. I didn't like the sudden ability to force suggest the storm trooper. Pretty weird. Everything else I was down with e.g. basic saber fighting and force pull.
Leia General, Female Yoda type character, Ray protagonist, all good and overall not too ham fisted in the purpose.
Kylo Ren... I mean, ok. Lost all the mystique when he took off his visor.
So did the First Order rebuild the Empire? I heard some quick exposition about "Maybe we should have used a clone army"
Did not have a problem with the macguffin or blowing up another death star or bringing down shields again.
Chewy had some very funny scenes, worked for me.
Han was solid.
Edit... Actually... considering this was the LAST time you can really use Han Solo in a major motion picture, I think they needed to do a better job with him. Maybe I'll feel differently when I re-watch it.
Fin character was excellent, really good casting there imo. He made the movie for me. Poe was solid and they can build on him. Ray was also solid although she was given some scenes that were goofy later in the movie. In the beginning she was great. I didn't like the sudden ability to force suggest the storm trooper. Pretty weird. Everything else I was down with e.g. basic saber fighting and force pull.
Leia General, Female Yoda type character, Ray protagonist, all good and overall not too ham fisted in the purpose.
Kylo Ren... I mean, ok. Lost all the mystique when he took off his visor.
So did the First Order rebuild the Empire? I heard some quick exposition about "Maybe we should have used a clone army"
Did not have a problem with the macguffin or blowing up another death star or bringing down shields again.
Chewy had some very funny scenes, worked for me.
Han was solid.
Edit... Actually... considering this was the LAST time you can really use Han Solo in a major motion picture, I think they needed to do a better job with him. Maybe I'll feel differently when I re-watch it.
excelsiorlef
Member
Can we just remember that Stormtroopers have now been established to all be susceptible to mind control and one can argue easily so since Finn is the first to ever quit. I mean we are literally talking about soldiers with programmed brains.
If anyone was going to get easily (and it took her 3 tries) Jedi mind tricked by someone just discovering the force it would be a Stormtrooper.
If anyone was going to get easily (and it took her 3 tries) Jedi mind tricked by someone just discovering the force it would be a Stormtrooper.
heliosRAzi
Banned
That is exactly what I said. He wants to learn to be a Jedi like his father at the beginning of the second act. Then he learns about it at the halfway point.
Blocking shots from a little device. Which shot him even after he put on the helmet. He didn't start mind tricking Han after that. Or using lightning in the Death Star.
I happen to like other black characters too.
I didn't bring them up for the justification of their abilities, but to show that I like female characters.
But if you want me to justify it, sure. I imagine that, much like Rey, Furiosa knew how to take care of herself which impressed Immortan Joe, so he let her fight for him. Then she rose in his ranks to become the Imperator.
The Major has lived inside of a prosthetic body for most ofnhernlife, so it stands to reason that she would know her cyber security and hacking.
Balsa was raised by her country's best warrior and watched him fight the other warriors. She took a liking to it and wanted to learn how to fight so that she could take care of herself. Turns out she was naturally gifted.
Look, I can buy Rey being an awesome mechanic. I think it's an awesome trait. I can buy her being able to pilot, it's just that the ramp up in skill just feels unnatural. I can buy her using the force, but similar, the speed it happens stretches my belief.
Because I don't like shallow main characters.
I completely agree.
Lol, I didn't say that.
I'm all for that. I just wouldn't watch those types of movies.
The Librarian
Banned
Why? There's nothing in the Star Wars universe that says Rey can't develop her force powers that fast.
The creature who popped up when BB-8 rolled by in the desert.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Are you going to respond this time or just ignore it?
You're right, there is nothing in the Star Wars universe that she can't develop her powers that fast, but narratively, I don't like it.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
This post infuriates me.
excelsiorlef
Member
The biggest thing she did was a jedi mindtrick on a mind control susceptible soldier on the 3rd try.
You're acting like she went all Force Unleashed and took down a Star Destroyer with the force and then force lightninged Kylo to death.
Which still qualifies as a legitimate use of the force. He doesn't try to mind trick Han or use lightning. It's firmly established that Luke's issue in his ability to use the force is that he doesn't inherently believe in it's power.
You keep acting as if this little device means nothing. Please show me where it is indicated that what Luke did was a minor feat? Please show me where it is indicated that it is a major feat? Going by the OT alone, all we know is that he picked it up instantly, and the only actual authority on the force there made no comment as to how difficult or easy it was to do.
You're assigning difficulty levels to a metaphysical concept that you have no basis for in estimating the use of. So I can play that game too. "Yeah, she mindtricked the storm trooper. It's a perfectly rudimentary skill anyone who can use the force can do." And suddenly Rey's mindtrick is hardly unbelievable, using this logic.
Dammit, I wish you caught my edit, because I do NOT want to start this line of conversation, but I'll reply to this atleast.
Oh, so we're imagining justifications for the movies that aren't within them now. Interesting. Because once you start doing that, you're basically writing for the writer, you know.
Which is perfectly fine. Lots of good stories survive on reader inference. But you have to work with the story to do such a thing, and SW lays down the foundations for doing so pretty well.
If you find Luke's journey more believable, okay but the simple facts here are being skewed a bit, because in terms of speed, Luke does it just as fast. The only way you can skew this is if you alter the narrative. That you posit that Luke's training with the ball was somehow not an impressive accomplishment when it was presented as impossible to Han at the least, but otherwise neutral. For all the movie presents us, it could have been something high level. Then, without any further practice, Luke does it again on target that should be impossible. Whether you credit this to his flying skills or his mastery of the force, or both, he makes the impossible shots that trained military pilots who are using computers to aid their technology can't. And that IS presented as a big deal/
Luke doesn't pick up the Force at a lesser speed than Rey. In both cases, when they need the force, they get into their zen state of mine, and do what needs to be done. That's what happens with the movies, and any disagreement htat comes from this involves different reading on ambiguous aspects of the force that aren't based in the film. So if it's not speed, honestly, what is it that makes Luke's journey more believable than Rey's?
I don't trust a man that says he doesn't enjoy obnoxiously stupid shit once in a while, but fine, I was just making the point that representation has no bearing on quality.
The Librarian
Banned
Even though the movie goes out of its way to tell you there's something different about her?
Because this last response of your is basically: "I don't like it because reasons."
TheOfficeMut
Unconfirmed Member
Fixed it for you.
heliosRAzi
Banned
That's quite true.
Blocking shots in a controlled environment is different than battle, as Han said. For me, Han was all that was needed for just a tiny seed of doubt when it came to what Luke did. Obi Wan thought it was probably badass.
That it also true, however, we saw a Jedi Master do it and Luke didn't do it until RotJ when he was a much more realized Jedi. The OT gives you just enough information for it.
Or it could all be nonsense.
Yeah, I saw it too late
. I think this is where I think I didn't convey my point well: where it happens in the movie is what I have a problem with. It's why I keep saying halfway point, second act, and all of that. The movie's pacing is too fast, so it has to have the characters be good at stuff fast in real-time (our time). In movie time, it could be short or long, but for us, as outside observers, Rey's development with the Force is all backloaded towards the end of the movie.
People tend to not like stuff because reasons. They just have a hard time articulating it (or they don't want to).
If we stretched out the latter part of the movie, say Rey touching the lightsaber and having the forceback was the beginning of the second act, her pushing back against Kylo was the halfway point, and then her having her climactic battle with Kylo at the end, I think I would be better with that.
PS: I'm glad you responded. Thank you.
I wish the movie was a little longer to address flaws in the story, I don't mind the ep4/5 reboot stuff ( Only for SW7 though ) but they should have take more time to explain what happened during the 30 years since the end of the war, it's suppose to be a sequel, people need to know what happened with the Republic, the Empire, why there is a resistance group when the Republic won, how big is the first order, how a Star killer base could have been made, who the fuck make the map to find Luke, why a random dude in Jakku have a piece of it etc...
They should have take more time with characters, more moments to breath like when Rey is watching for the first time a green planet with her own eyes, everything is too quick. too quick like how Rey use the force power, what will be her progression for the next 2 films ? she already can do everything a Jedi can with the same rate of success so why bother to follow her on this part of the character.
Oh and Poe Dameron and Finn bromance is ridiculous...
They should have take more time with characters, more moments to breath like when Rey is watching for the first time a green planet with her own eyes, everything is too quick. too quick like how Rey use the force power, what will be her progression for the next 2 films ? she already can do everything a Jedi can with the same rate of success so why bother to follow her on this part of the character.
Oh and Poe Dameron and Finn bromance is ridiculous...
Ten seconds ago, Han was saying what Luke was going to do was impossible. I think we can safely say he knows jack shit about how the force works. The most you can say is that he opens up a line of speculation, but it's nothing solid.
Point of fact, Luke also never tried it before RotJ.
Well....not necessarily. When Rey left, Ren said he sensed an awakening in the force, meaning so she probably used the force in her escape without knowing it. So it was established as early as that. Plus her wonderment at Han telling her about the force itself can count as development.
But I see what your saying. i can see that more clearly then. But then it's not so much of a matter of believability as it is processing information speed. Things like what your arguing about Han saying he doubted it would work in a real fight don't have bearing on that, as those are logical arguments that have no chronological bearing. Similarly, Luke's demonstration of the Jedi Mind Trick appearing in the third movie is evidence of his mastery, but not because the JMT is difficult to do, but because Luke has been a Jedi long enough to have used the force in a variety of ways at this point (where as before he just used it to help in lightsaber fights).
If that's the kind of mastery your referring to, it's different from Rey 'suddenly' being able to do stuff, because she is doing things as the necesssity for them is presented.
TheOfficeMut
Unconfirmed Member
What is so ridiculous about their bromance? One thought he was destined to die on the ship, the other thought he was destined to forever be a storm trooper. They have a very strong connection because they both helped in breaking out of those destinies. I'd have endless love for someone if they helped me out in such a situation.
The Librarian
Banned
Wouldn't work. What would you have Rey doing after she got frightened by the lightsaber? Walking around the woods for hours?That's quite true.
Blocking shots in a controlled environment is different than battle, as Han said. For me, Han was all that was needed for just a tiny seed of doubt when it came to what Luke did. Obi Wan thought it was probably badass.
That it also true, however, we saw a Jedi Master do it and Luke didn't do it until RotJ when he was a much more realized Jedi. The OT gives you just enough information for it.
Or it could all be nonsense.
Yeah, I saw it too late
I think this is where I think I didn't convey my point well: where it happens in the movie is what I have a problem with. It's why I keep saying halfway point, second act, and all of that. The movie's pacing is too fast, so it has to have the characters be good at stuff fast in real-time (our time). In movie time, it could be short or long, but for us, as outside observers, Rey's development with the Force is all backloaded towards the end of the movie.
People tend to not like stuff because reasons. They just have a hard time articulating it (or they don't want to).
If we stretched out the latter part of the movie, say Rey touching the lightsaber and having the forceback was the beginning of the second act, her pushing back against Kylo was the halfway point, and then her having her climactic battle with Kylo at the end, I think I would be better with that.
PS: I'm glad you responded. Thank you.
heliosRAzi
Banned
That's what makes it interesting
. The shot blocks, to me, seem like baby steps. The bigger, more fantastical stuff such as telekinesis and mind control requires more effort and training. Personally.Why? We can only speculate on it though. I say because it's something more difficult to learn. It's one thing to block shots, it's another to control a person's mind.
Snoke says it after Rey and Finn meet up with Han and Chewie about halfway into the movie. But I see what you're saying.
The movie doesn't give the audience (me) the time to process that information, so it feels unearned and rushed and unbelievable. The movie's pacing is hurts itself like a confused Pokemon.
In ANH, Luke wants to learn how to be a Jedi and witnesses Obi do the JMT at the beginning of the second act. Then he tries his hand at blocking shots halfway through. Then, at the end, he uses the Force to blow up the Death Star. His development has time to sit and simmer. Rey's development is compressed.
I don't really consider Rey to be a master. The JMT, to me is more advanced than the telekinesis. Her Force timeline is just so compressed that it makes it hard to believe. If it was stretched out over the course of most of the movie, I bet you wouldn't have as many Mary Sue complaints.
Those would just be the beats. The entire movie would have to change around them. In any case, I'm just using it as an example.
The Librarian
Banned
It'd basically be the same amount of time but placed differently.
Just to be a stickler, in the new canon Luke has tried a couple times in the books and comics that take place between ANH and ESB and he keeps failing at it.
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
In all games ive been playing this past weeks about star wars, is used as weapon and carried by humans/aliens that are not wookies.
Jedi Outcast, Jedi Academy and Republic Commando.
In the description of the weapon in the Jedi Knight games it says the majority of bowcasters that are now sold have automatic reload, as that was the impossible part for people who were not Wookies.
Of course everyone of those is non canon now, so...
About Han being surprised when he used it, maybe he shots in some book of the EU, but I wouldnt be surprised if this one was the first time he used it as he is a classic laser gun kind of guy, and founding its actually awesome.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Exactly. That placement is important.
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