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[inm8num2]

I really hope Rey is Luke's daughter. It makes that final scene especially powerful

I think she is. Luke had this look on his face like he was expecting her, but a part of him was a little anxious/reluctant about training her.

 

[Error]

By that very logic, whatever isn't shown in the movie isn't especially important.

Until those tie-in books and the events described in them get a mention in one of these movies then he is not wrong to go on with that logic.

 

[foxtrot3d]

The movie doesn't describe the stormtroopers as being friends and shows Finn more reacting to fear and the killing of innocents. Which drives him further in the movie. Fear of TFO and not having a moral dilemma in regards to the stormtroopers as killers of innocents. Propaganda fails from time to time, it's not unheard of. That's why people still tried to run out of Eastern Europe even after 40 years of communism or people still trying to run out of North Korea.

Those people have memories of life outside of their oppressive rulers or know relatives who remember better times. Finn, as far as we know, has only known First Order life and was never exposed to anyone or anything outside of it.

 

[Johndoey]

The movie doesn't describe the stormtroopers as being friends and shows Finn more reacting to fear and the killing of innocents. Which drives him further in the movie. Fear of TFO and not having a moral dilemma in regards to the stormtroopers as killers of innocents. Propaganda fails from time to time, it's not unheard of. That's why people still tried to run out of Eastern Europe even after 40 years of communism or people still trying to run out of North Korea.

This is long term conditioning and indoctrination that shouldn't have just failed.

 

[Statue of Limitation]

I have to say I'm glad that some of the people here are not directing Star Wars. Judging by the way some people post, the Star Wars OT as well as this movie wouldn't have been fun, enjoyable hero's adventures, but depressing films about the horrors of war that nobody would want to watch.

Let's analyze the OT like some of us have been analyzing TFA.

How could Luke pull off the shot at the end of the Death Star trench run without the targeting computer? He'd be wracked with survivor's guilt and still thinking about the loss of his aunt and uncle as well as his mentor. He'd be dead.

Furthermore, how could Han arrive just in the nick of time to save him? How convenient that he shows up at the very last moment, right?

Also, how could Han make it through the asteroid field? The odds of successfully navigating it are 3,720 to 1. He and everyone else aboard the Falcon should be dead.

While on the subject, talk about the convenience of Luke crashlanding so close to Yoda's hut on Dagobah. The planet is teeming with life, right? Even with the help of the Force, he should've spent months searching for him.

How could Luke possibly defeat Vader? His father helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights, and Luke would still be traumatized by the revelation that Vader is his father. There's absolutely no way that he could ever beat him given his mental condition. He'd be dead.

Yeah, all of that sounds just like what I'd love to see in Star Wars.

I quite agree. But at the same time...

Star Wars is a fun popcorn flick where space wizards fight with lazer swords and an unambigious good defeats an unmitigated evil. It is not well written. Still enjoyable though.

We can't have it both ways

 

[BluePigGanon]

TBH, a good rule of franchise brand management is that you should never make the experience of a franchise that began its life in a specific medium rely on information from works created for other media.

Oh I agree. I have been a SW fan since the beginning and always would roll my eyes when fellow fans would start a sentence with "Well if you read..." Snore.

My point is just: a lot of the criticisms I see in this thread can and should be shrugged off as "it's not important". Someone recently asked JJ how many Ewoks Kylo had to kill to get Vader's helmet. It's funny but it's a perfect example of "it doesn't matter." Likewise, all the life-as-a-First-Order-trooper questions - it's fun for fan talk, but for this movie it's kinda irrelevant.

 

[Ishida]

I quite agree. But at the same time...

Star Wars is a fun popcorn flick where space wizards fight with lazer swords and an unambigious good defeats an unmitigated evil. It is not well written. Still enjoyable though.

We can't have it both ways

If only more people understood that...

 

[foxtrot3d]

If only more people understood that...

So being a fun pop-corn flick excuses it from criticism in any form?

 

[KingSnake]

Those people have memories of life outside of their oppressive rulers or have know relatives who remember better times. Finn, as far as we know, has only known First Order life and was never exposed to anyone or anything outside of it.

The motivation is not always "for the good old time". Especially considering that the good old times might not have been so good for everybody. Actually a lot of the radical actions are rather driven by fear or moral dilemmas not nostalgia.

This is long term conditioning and indoctrination that shouldn't have just failed.

There are notable examples of Nazis or KGB members who defected or tried to defect.

Edit: I used the book not as a explanation for the movie, but because I thought people are actually interested in the subject and it's important to them.

 

[NyMartin90]

I'll just leave this here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG6kRHy4LB0

That is awesome

 

[Theodoricos]

I quite agree. But at the same time...

Star Wars is a fun popcorn flick where space wizards fight with lazer swords and an unambigious good defeats an unmitigated evil. It is not well written. Still enjoyable though.

We can't have it both ways

I disagree. The OT, for the most part at least, is well written for what it is. The fact that it's a traditional good vs. evil story does not mean it's badly written. It doesn't pretend to be anything but that. Similarly, when you have a needlessly convoluted, complex storyline in a movie, book or whatever, that does not automatically mean that it's well written.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

I haven't read these books so don't bring them up in a relevant discussion. Makes sense.

 

[Ishida]

So being a fun pop-corn flick excuses it from criticism in any form?

Please quote when I stated such a thing.

 

[Shaanyboi]

I'll just leave this here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG6kRHy4LB0

Vader: "How cute. I murdered a room full of children just like you, once."

 

[KingSnake]

Plus, think of who was shown in the movie to be responsible for training the stormtroopers. Phasma and Hux. Not the most competent commandants ever and not infallible, for sure.

 

[excelsiorlef]

For Ishida - In Defense of George Lucas: Its Time to Stop Shitting on a Genius

A genius doesn’t make the PT

 

[Ishida]

Vader: "How cute. I murdered a room full of children just like you, once."

Ok, this got me. XD

A genius doesn’t make the PT

Yes, he does.

 

[BluePigGanon]

Plus, think of who was shown in the movie to be responsible for training the stormtroopers. Phasma and Hux. Not the most competent commandants ever and not infallible, for sure.

It's funny, I was just thinking Hux seemed like the most competent person in TFO's lineup.

 

[Markitron]

A genius doesn’t make the PT

A genius does create Star Wars and revolutionise the visual effects industry though.

 

[Johndoey]

The motivation is not always "for the good old time". Especially considering that the good old times might not have been so good for everybody. Actually a lot of the radical actions are rather driven by fear or moral dilemmas not nostalgia.



There are notable examples of Nazis or KGB members who defected or tried to defect.

Edit: I used the book not as a explanation for the movie, but because I thought people are actually interested in the subject and it's important to them.

It's not him defecting I have an issue with its that he gets over years on programming within like a day with no real lingering effects.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Plus, think of who was shown in the movie to be responsible for training the stormtroopers. Phasma and Hux. Not the most competent commandants ever and not infallible, for sure.

Eh, Hux managed to build a planet sized weapon in complete secret and then used said weapon to totally destroy the New Republic. He seems pretty competent to me.

 

[Lifejumper]

Ok, this got me. XD



Yes, he does.

Is jar jar a work of a genius?

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I haven't read these books so don't bring them up in a relevant discussion. Makes sense.

Honestly though, "but the books" usually just leads to frustration on both sides. The books are merchandising first and foremost. Its nice when the merch CAN add to the storytelling of the films, but if you NEED them to answer questions posed by the text of the film, that's not so good for the film.

Plus there's all the extra confusion that comes along when people who HAVE read the books try to explain stuff to people who haven't, muddied by people who've only read some, and eventually the convo isn't even about the movie, and how it works as a movie, but its more like a contest to see who can most quickly assume the form of Wookiepedia.

 

[Markitron]

Is jar jar a work of a genius?

David Bowie has put out some proper dodgy stuff, doesn't make him any less of a genius.

Honestly though, "but the books" usually just leads to frustration on both sides. The books are merchandising first and foremost. Its nice when the merch CAN add to the storytelling of the films, but if you NEED them to answer questions posed by the text of the film, that's not so good for the film.

IMO it falls right in the middle with TFA, personally I'm fine with that, but I'm a fan so I'm obviously biased.

 

[KingSnake]

Eh, Hux managed to build a planet sized weapon in complete secret and then used said weapon to totally destroy the New Republic. He seems pretty competent to me.

He didn't manage to keep it for too long, didn't he? Or learn too much from the mistakes of his predecessors.

It's not him defecting I have an issue with its that he gets over years on programming within like a day with no real lingering effects.

Propaganda is an elaborate lie. If the lie falls apart, there's not too much left to generate effects in the long run.

 

[Ishida]

Is jar jar a work of a genius?

I don't mind Jar Jar. I don't like him. I don't hate him.

 

[LegalEagleMike]

He didn't manage to keep it for too long, didn't he? Or learn too much from the mistakes of his predecessors.

to be fair he didnt know the Han Solo had trained to become a hyperspace master.

 

[KingSnake]

to be fair he didnt know the Han Solo had trained to become a hyperspace master.

Maybe that wouldn't have mattered if he would have used the troops to guard the important parts instead of doing Nazi shows.

 

[SmackAttack]

I'll just leave this here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG6kRHy4LB0

That is dope.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Honestly though, "but the books" usually just leads to frustration on both sides. The books are merchandising first and foremost. Its nice when the merch CAN add to the storytelling of the films, but if you NEED them to answer questions posed by the text of the film, that's not so good for the film.

Plus there's all the extra confusion that comes along when people who HAVE read the books try to explain stuff to people who haven't, muddied by people who've only read some, and eventually the convo isn't even about the movie, and how it works as a movie, but its more like a contest to see who can most quickly assume the form of Wookiepedia.

It doesn't excuse the faults with the film in question, but to disregard them completely when they can provide answers to questions that might surface seems a bit silly. Most of the people watching the film couldn't give a shit, but it can help fill in the blanks for those who do want to know more.

 

[Johndoey]

to be fair he didnt know the Han Solo had trained to become a hyperspace master.

It's that villain thing of having an impenetrable defense except for something only a moron would try and of course the hero is/knows that moron.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

What he said.

The whole indoctrinated since birth angle really bothers me because it also brings to mind so many other questions and also makes you question Finn's personality and reactions to things in the film. Like, assuming he was taken as a little baby from birth to be a Stormtrooper (thus not even being old enough to remember his own name) then First Order/Stormtrooper life should be the only thing he has ever known. So this makes you wonder what exactly is indoctrinated ST life like? And, why would he suddenly grow a conscience during one attack on a village? Why does he seem to not care about any of his fellow ST's?

I took it as only the elite Storm troopers. Not all Storm Troopers.

Finn said he was taken from his family. Maybe because he was homegrown like most storm troopers he was put into the labor force (sanitation, construction of Death Star 3, etc...)
It was only recently when he was asked to be apart of an extermination squad.

Those people have memories of life outside of their oppressive rulers or know relatives who remember better times. Finn, as far as we know, has only known First Order life and was never exposed to anyone or anything outside of it.

He mentions being taken from his family, but yeah, you would think he would remember his name, unless he found out about his kidnaopping by doing research on himself

 

[KingSnake]

Honestly though, "but the books" usually just leads to frustration on both sides. The books are merchandising first and foremost. Its nice when the merch CAN add to the storytelling of the films, but if you NEED them to answer questions posed by the text of the film, that's not so good for the film.

Plus there's all the extra confusion that comes along when people who HAVE read the books try to explain stuff to people who haven't, muddied by people who've only read some, and eventually the convo isn't even about the movie, and how it works as a movie, but its more like a contest to see who can most quickly assume the form of Wookiepedia.

I'm sorry for bringing up the books, I truly thought people are interested in the background story of Finn.

 

[El Topo]

It's that villain thing of having an impenetrable defense except for something only a moron would try and of course the hero is/knows that moron.

I mean, obviously a competent organization would have additional restrictions, e.g. additional authentication for shutting down the shield, but where's the fun in that?

 

[foxtrot3d]

I took it as only the elite Storm troopers. Not all Storm Troopers.

Finn said he was taken from his family. Maybe because he was homegrown like most storm troopers he was put into the labor force (sanitation, construction of Death Star 3, etc...)
It was only recently when he was asked to be apart of an extermination squad.

Nah, Finn says "like all stormtroopers" and StarWars.com also states that all stormtroopers are taken from birth and indoctrinated.

 

[Johndoey]

I took it as only the elite Storm troopers. Not all Storm Troopers.

Finn said he was taken from his family. Maybe because he was homegrown like most storm troopers he was put into the labor force (sanitation, construction of Death Star 3, etc...)
It was only recently when he was asked to be apart of an extermination squad.

It's weird because he says "A family I will never know" or something along those lines so does that mean he remembers his family and regrets being taken from them or imagining the family he was taken from but never knew?

 

[LegalEagleMike]

It's that villain thing of having an impenetrable defense except for something only a moron would try and of course the hero is/knows that moron.

Pretty much. But he did do more with his planet killer than Tarkin did with his and he lived! Suck it Wilhuff.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Take over the Senate from within? Then what is the purpose of Starkiller, exactly? Is it for Luke or is it for The Republic and their Armada? The First Order hadn't operated unhindered, they were harassed by The Resistance and operated in secret from The Republic.

A death squad is smaller than two commanders entire forces. Again, you purport that Snoke is willing to destroy an entire star system to stop Leia from finding Luke but suggest that sending a Death Squad is more than enough to suit the same purpose mere days before? That's like failing to swat a fly with a flyswatter so you burn down the entire house instead.

It makes no sense. None. Zero. Not even in the sense of escalation does that make sense. Destroying the Senate was always the plan, the only question is when that was originally planned to happen.

Adds to the Skywalker mythos? The same mythos they intentionally tarnish in this same movie by telling the audience that Luke's academy was slaughtered and he ran away and hid?

Luke is important. Never said he wasn't. What I've been arguing against was your assertion that Snoke is so deatlhy afraid of Luke and his forming a new Jedi Order (which would probably take a two to three decades to recreate in a really weak format) that everything he's doing is focused on the prevention of Luke and Leia meeting up again.

It's a reach and a gross overestimation of Luke's EVII reputation.

Yes and the Resistance is a lot smaller than the entire Republic. They were still operating legally unhindered. They thought picking up a droid would be easier then it turned out to be. He put his seemingly top people on it though. Would they have eventually fired on The Republic? Yeah probably. Though they might have fired on Luke's planet had they acquired the coordinates from the map, or both. Or they might have wanted to take over the Senate another way. Who knows, that's guess work

But what isn't guess work is why he fired when he did in the movie. We know that because he tells us directly in blatant supervillain exposition. Why do you keep talking to me like I'm making Snoke's intentions all up?

I apparently can't say this enough watch those damn exposition scenes. He could not make it more clear that his intentions to fire on thr Republic when he did was to stop Leia from getting to Luke. He says he's doing exactly that. He could not make it more clear that he's firing on Leia's camp to stop her from finding Luke. He says he's doing exactly that.

The decision to fire when they did was to stop Leia from finding Luke. Why is this so bloody difficult for you to understand. It's literally said out loud in the freaking movie, twice...

 

[Shaanyboi]

Our new generation of heroes, ladies and gentlemen

 

[Statue of Limitation]

I disagree. The OT, for the most part at least, is well written for what it is. The fact that it's a traditional good vs. evil story does not mean it's badly written. It doesn't pretend to be anything but that. Similarly, when you have a needlessly convoluted, complex storyline in a movie, book or whatever, that does not automatically mean that it's well written.

But its not, if it was there would ve larger emotional fallout to mass murder and close family members dying. There wouldn't be silly plot holes like scanning escape pods for life forms or an army of rats beating hi-tech soldiers with rocks and sticks. Death Star II wouldn't be a thing. Star Killer definitely wouldn't be a thing. Then there are scenes which make no sense and exist purely for spectacle such as Han Solo's rescue e.g the most convoluted plan ever. The Rebel Alliance would have further depth and plot and character, and maybe the empire would have motivations other global domination because eeeeeevil.

War and Peace Star Wars is not.

And that is ok. I can't say I have ever read War and Peace, but I sure as shit have seen Star Wars.

 

[LegalEagleMike]

And that is ok. I can't say I have ever read War and Peace, but I sure as shit have seen Star Wars.

I have. Id rather watch Star wars.

But War and Peace is very well written, just not going to read it again lol.

 

[Phamit]

I had the impression that Luke was standing in front of a gravestone. So was it a grave?

 

[Markitron]

I had the impression that Luke was standing in front of a gravestone. So was it a grave?

Can't say I got that impression myself, I believe it's the ruin of an old Jedi temple.

 

[Dragon]

This is long term conditioning and indoctrination that shouldn't have just failed.

Didn't they say in the movie this isn't the first time something like this has happened?

 

[excelsiorlef]

It doesn't excuse the faults with the film in question, but to disregard them completely when they can provide answers to questions that might surface seems a bit silly. Most of the people watching the film couldn't give a shit, but it can help fill in the blanks for those who do want to know more.

I mean that's basically it.

A vast majority of the audience aren't going to ask questions about these fine details of the universe. So it doesn't make sense to pack the movies full answers to questions only a fraction is asking.

For that tiny fraction that is asking though they give you other ways of getting that info.

 

[the black pearl]

Is there any one else who had the passing thought that the planet was Earth?

 

[LegalEagleMike]

Is there any one else who had the passing thought that the planet was Earth?

no...

 

[Bobby Roberts]

No.

Its a galaxy far, far away...

 

[MMarston]

Is there any one else who had the passing thought that the planet was Earth?

welp

 

[WadiumArcadium]

The McDonalds packaging in the helicopter shot gave it away.