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Star Citizen Pre-Alpha: 'Arena Commander' Dogfighting

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"I get why people are upset about auto-leading, and they should allow you to turn it off and still use targeting, but I mean wouldn't it be a bit weird for a spaceship not have an auto-leading system?"


Wouldn't it be weird for a future gunship to have a human pilot at all?

Screw "realism" in goofy fiction settings, it's a pox on game design.
 

epmode

Member
It's a bit weird that space sim combat is basically World War 2 instead of automated Newtonian XTREME RANGE standoffs. Space sims are all about concessions made in the name of fun.
 

MrBig

Member
I get why people are upset about auto-leading, and they should allow you to turn it off and still use targeting, but I mean wouldn't it be a bit weird for a spaceship not have an auto-leading system?

I agree, though I certainly feel like I can appreciate the viewpoint. Even if you personally turn it off, the guy you're fighting wouldn't need to, and the difference in having it on is pretty much only positive.

If non-autolocking ITTS markers aren't already coming I'm sure adding them isn't out of the question if they're posted about on their forums.
 

Mik2121

Member
It's probably only a matter of perception. SC uses newtonian physics so rotation and reorientation is very fast even with comstab, g-force-safe and coupled mode. Doesn't necessarily mean your ship will fly in the new direction immediately. You should take a look out for the little pro- and retrograde signs in the HUD.

I see. I will check it out.

I know the game is still pre-alpha, but I'm incredibly surprised at how terribly bad some things work, like the first person camera movement (probably the worst camera I have used ever, including pre-alpha games cameras), the movement of the ship and the lack of any interesting sound (I hope this game is one day at the same level as Elite, the sound in that game is so awesome).

Anyway, guess I was expecting too much from this build. I can't wait until they start to add more interesting content and let me explore space!
 

XEROWUN

Neo Member
"I get why people are upset about auto-leading, and they should allow you to turn it off and still use targeting, but I mean wouldn't it be a bit weird for a spaceship not have an auto-leading system?"


Wouldn't it be weird for a future gunship to have a human pilot at all?

Screw "realism" in goofy fiction settings, it's a pox on game design.

BUT IT BREAKS MY IMMERSION
 

MrBig

Member
probably the worst camera I have used ever, including pre-alpha games cameras

This has to do with the first person body, they're still figuring out how everything works with that for VR support, and smoothing out the motion, for the camera is attached to the head of a fully animated body.
 

Mik2121

Member
This has to do with the first person body, they're still figuring out how everything works with that for VR support, and smoothing out the motion, for the camera is attached to the head of a fully animated body.

Yeah, noticed that.

Still, all games out there with first and third person cameras don't put the first person camera attached to the head of the third person camera character, if only because it can be incredibly annoying. Trying to do slight movements around my ship is always an annoyance.
And the fact that I get to see through my ship every time I leave the pilot seat because my head goes through the roof is just... weird. The fact that it does a lot of small movements is fairly annoying too, and I could see it being way worse with the Oculus Rift.
 
"Would it?"

You need only look at the modern day to see the increased use of remote/automated drone missions over having a real pilot in the aircraft.


"Anyway, I didn't mean for it to sound like a realism>fun argument"

I know, I was just ranting. Too often in threads about games that have something that's arguably bad and/or stupid, the defensive retort is "Well, that's more realistic." SciFi games are already filled to the brim with made up hokey fantasy bullshit, that's part of the whole appeal of the genre.
 
I agree, though I certainly feel like I can appreciate the viewpoint. Even if you personally turn it off, the guy you're fighting wouldn't need to, and the difference in having it on is pretty much only positive.

If non-autolocking ITTS markers aren't already coming I'm sure adding them isn't out of the question if they're posted about on their forums.

Maybe they could reduce the effectiveness of the auto-leading system so that manual leading is in theory more accurate. Like how racing games handle assists.
 
"Maybe they could reduce the effectiveness of the auto-leading system so that manual leading is in theory more accurate. Like how racing games handle assists."

Well, the real issue with the auto-leading system (besides it existing) is that it's *awful*. I'm drastically more accurate avoiding it and leading manually.
 

MrBig

Member
Yeah, noticed that.

Still, all games out there with first and third person cameras don't put the first person camera attached to the head of the third person camera character, if only because it can be incredibly annoying. Trying to do slight movements around my ship is always an annoyance.
And the fact that I get to see through my ship every time I leave the pilot seat because my head goes through the roof is just... weird. The fact that it does a lot of small movements is fairly annoying too, and I could see it being way worse with the Oculus Rift.

Just to note, the currently live versions don't feature an earlier implementation that was much better in terms of smoothness, with headlook still being free during animations - it's a wip of course. In the case of using a rift, your actual head position overrides local animations.
 
"Maybe they could reduce the effectiveness of the auto-leading system so that manual leading is in theory more accurate. Like how racing games handle assists."

Well, the real issue with the auto-leading system (besides it existing) is that it's *awful*. I'm drastically more accurate avoiding it and leading manually.

Personally I found it much harder. But If that's the case then I'm happy with how the system it works. Let the top end of the skill curve require manual-leading
 

Blizzard

Banned
Yeah, the gimbaled guns are a surprisingly casual mechanic from a developer that says it wants to make a hardcore space sim.

I've been using the autotargeting but I feel like I may as well be mindlessly playing Townville on Facebook or something. When I first got into a Vanduul Swarm game, before I realized the guns were doing the autotargeting thing, I'd been manually leading my targets. I think I might go back to that ... it was more fun. It would be nice to have an ITTS crosshair, though.
Ignorant question, what's an ITTS crosshair? Googling didn't turn up anything obvious besides a reference to Star Citizen and possible military tie-ins.
 
Some relevant information about why aiming works as it does has been posted in the Dogfighting Module Programming Ask a Dev thread around page 9/10 if you want to look in there.

Basically what it comes down to is how you can equip different guns to your ship that all fire at different speeds. They used to have a traditional lead indicators that you aimed at (indeed, this was shown in the previous issue of Jump Point when it talked about the HUD), but because of differing weapon speeds you had to have multiple indicators for each type of weapon. In Jump Point they just had two different lead indicators which wouldn't be so bad, but let's take a Hornet here and say you put 8 different guns on it that all fired at different speeds, meaning you'd need a mess of eight different lead indicators that would clutter the screen and be hard to differentiate.

Now, when you have gimbaled weapons that allows the guns to automatically adjust their convergence, so the computer can calculate at what angle they need to be pointing at so all guns if fired at once will hit one single point at the same time, eliminating the mess that would come from if you had individual indicators for each different weapon of a different speed.

Additionally, Brandon Evans (aka Huntokar) said that it was near impossible to hit targets using just class 1 (fixed) weapons, hence why the Aurora and 300i's wingtip guns have been changed to class 2. The Hornet's nose mounts are still class 1 and you can put guns in them if you want to try out how class 1s work. You get a sort of "reverse lead" for them that trails after your gunsight. You have to maneuver the "reverse lead" on top of the enemy to aim at them. I haven't played around with it much and I'm still not very good at aiming with my X52 Pro so take it with a grain of salt, but it did seem hard to get a hit with my Neutron guns in those nose mounts.

Perhaps they could add different ITTS modes in that allow for different types of targeting. Of course, then that'd just be another thing to try to balance.
 
"Additionally, Brandon Evans (aka Huntokar) said that it was near impossible to hit targets using just class 1 (fixed) weapons, hence why the Aurora and 300i's wingtip guns have been changed to class 2. "


This isn't *exactly* what he's saying. He's saying that class-1 weapons that were weaker than the weapons the Scythes have were useless. But, he goes on later to mention that the Omnisky VI's (What were originally the 300i's class-1 weapons) are REALLY strong. Soooooo maybe they should just be on the 300i's Class-1 hardpoints like they were originally?

Also, in the context of that statement, he's saying that the game isn't impossible to play despite the plasma cannons on the Scythe doing a ton of damage because it's really hard to hit with Class-1 weapons, but that's the AI, not a human player.

And it's absolutely not "near impossible" to hit targets with class-1 weapons.
 

Rudelord

Member
CIG screwed up the Four Horsemen entry when they put it in the hangar according to the team members.

It's missing the lighting strips they had on the design and the top engine nacelle is out of proportion with the lower one.

How the fuck did you do that, CIG?
 
So that's what's wrong with the guns. I was confused as to trying to figure out why my laser shots were not connecting.
Personally, they just need to figure out how to make multiple leads work. Let users personalize them (Color of the lead, the crosshair icon, patterning line), rather than cut down on the personal managing input of the player. It's disappointing, really.
Still, I believe they will change it. Enough people have complained, and more will, so they will do something to fix it. It's what this whole process is for!

Edit: there's a proposed solution by one of the users: Have one lead indicator that you choose from one gun and have the rest follow and adjust to that one according to their own projectile speeds. Sounds elegant, and could be a nice compromise. TEST IT!
 

red731

Member
Anyone gat very slow texture loading? Resulting in texture pop in? It isn't so bad outside of hangar module, but inside of it, I can definately tell the textures are loading slowly.
I have the game on SSD.
High setting results in even slower drag of the textures and on the Broken Moon map, the planet textures goes all blury. Very High lowers the ration of that happening, but the hangar module is still plagued by texture crawl.
Anyone with same problem?
 

epmode

Member
I had that problem until I installed my replacement video card. Might be low vram for the current texture resolution.
 

Faith

Member
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/2722695/#Comment_2722695

I wasn't able to make it entirely through this thread, but it was a very interesting debate. I have a few comments.

1) IFCS models a true control system, which means that it asks thrusters to provide an acceleration based on a velocity feedback control. A real control system has limitations on what acceleration it can support based on the damping of the system. Accelerate too much and you have overshoot and oscillation. Accelerate too little and you have a long settle time. Critical damping provides the optimal acceleration to settle as quickly as possible with zero overshoot. So the acceleration curve is a realistic curve given the type of system we're simulating. And there is no difference in the settle time whether you're accelerating to a constant velocity or decelerating to 0. There is a perceived difference because settling into zero velocity is a much more subtle action than accelerating into a constant velocity. You perceive the effect of slide as you come to a full stop. You don't perceive slide as you settle into a non-zero velocity.

2) What IFCS asks of thrusters is not always what it gets. This was a primary design consideration for this system. It's easy to create a system that behaves exactly like you want it to behave. The hard part was designing a system that might not get the response that it asks. That's why I modeled it after a feedback control system. Because at every step in the simulation, it responds to the true state of the system rather than what it expects it to be. And there are many reasons why the thrusters won't give IFCS the thrust it requests. An obvious one is damage to thrusters, IFCS or both. Another is a non-optimal mass distribution, since mass distribution changes from the designed norm, especially in the heat of battle. Another is just non-optimal design. You see this in the Hornet. It has vectored thrusters that potentially support multiple control actions. This isn't a bad thing. It gives ships character. The Hornet performs well, even if it does have some hitches. These hitches come out of its intentional thruster design. The most obvious example of it is when strafing left and right. When you start to strafe left, for example, the top thrusters vector to provide the +X thrust. These thrusters are not balanced by other +X thrusters on the bottom of the ship, so they generate roll torque along with +X translational force. In order to compensation for this, IFCS fires pure torque pairs, which are pairs of thrusters that can generate the needed counter-torque without any residual translation, thus bringing the system to equilibrium. The problem is that the very same thrusters engaged in +X thrust are also used to generate the counter-torque, and it takes a moment for the system to find its natural equilibrium. But it is a natural equilibrium, not a pre-determined state, and that's the point of this system. IFCS isn't "smart" so much as it is "adaptive". At its most basic, it isn't attempting to fly for you (though it can do that, and advanced systems will do more). It's merely attempting to use the thrusters it has, without any assumptions about what it has, to achieve the requested action.

3) The current state of control is not what it will be. Over the past week, I have been refining the response to controller inputs to make the game easier to control without sacrificing realism. I personally cannot play the game as it was released. We had to release it to get the ball rolling, but I'm working on the fix to a lot of these issues as we speak. In fact, I should be working on that instead of reading and responding to this thread.

4) I happen to agree that the amount of thrust we support, and thus the amount of acceleration, is too high. I would love to see more inertia in these ships. The system supports that, it's just a question of what the designers decide. But be warned that the stopping time and perceived slide when turning will be higher with less acceleration.

5) "Main thruster keeps thrusting animation even though you already reached maximum and your cockpit controlls reports no energy waste. (apparently to make it look cool)
-that, i dont like..."

That's not actually true. It isn't thrusting, it's just in a hot state, ready to thrust. When it's thrusting, you see a very different effect. It's like a jet engine that's on, running hot, but not yet thrusting. Maybe we can improve the effect, but that's what we were going for.

6) As for the complaint that there is no mouse mode to point the nose toward the reticle position, there certainly could be, it just hasn't been implemented. IFCS can accurately point the ship's nose at any point in space with optimal thrust.

7) To address the point of the OP, it's not actually the vectoring of the thrusters that you're feeling, but instead a combination of the feedback control response, thruster response time and max thrust available, which, btw, fluctuates based on available power. This is highly tunable and will depend on the quality and even health of the systems involved, so different ships will have very different control response.

JP
 
Ok, so I haven't been following this game that closely and it's been a while since I was in the hangar module.

After hearing that Arena Commander Alpha was out. All of a sudden I have a huge hangar with 3 ships and a 4th training ship...

Can someone give me the quick and dirty? Is this hangar just temporary? Are other ships just there to tease me into upgrading?
 

ASTROID2

Member
Ok, so I haven't been following this game that closely and it's been a while since I was in the hangar module.

After hearing that Arena Commander Alpha was out. All of a sudden I have a huge hangar with 3 ships and a 4th training ship...

Can someone give me the quick and dirty? Is this hangar just temporary? Are other ships just there to tease me into upgrading?

Everyone has the deluxe hangar for now because the winner for the Next Great Starship is being chosen today and they put them in the hangar. The training ships are the ones you can fly in arena commander.
 

Zabojnik

Member
Micheal Morland is gonna have some sort of new Star Citizen show called Galactic Inquiry. He's raising money here:
http://www.patreon.com/michaelmorlan
Really funny video.

Will definitely watch. Does anybody know why exactly was Michael let go? I mean, I know it's because of WH being over, but it looks like they could've used his talents. In LA, if not in Austin. And he clearly isn't over Star Citizen, if he's putting up his own show. Or maybe that's exactly why he left. Dunno, I really like the guy, I wish he could've stayed with the team.
 

P3P5I

Member
The Redeemer's wings are very love/hate it seems, and personally I don't like the gundam feel it's giving. I think the Boomslang fits the Star Citizen universe better. They are both amazingly designed ships, and I'd love to fly either one when they make it into the game.
 

elyetis

Member
In case you need help deciding on which ship to vote for later and can't access the hangar ...

AnythingFPS - Origin AX114 Boomslang Mk4 TNGS

AnythingFPS - Redeemer Class Gunship - Aegis Dynamics
If there is one thing that the Arena Commander has shown me, is that I would like my ship cockpit to actually give me a good visibility ( wich sadly my 300i doesn't ). That enough will probably make me decide for the Origin AX114 Boomslang Mk4 TNGS over the Redeemer ( but to be fair I really think the 2 ships deserve to end up in the game ).

edit: the Redeemer in white look far far better, yeah again make me think that the two ship should end up in the game, even if the put a priority on the winner.
 

ASTROID2

Member
Guys were not killing the Vanduul. The UEE tricked us!
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/137841/the-vanduul-swarm-is-a-lie/p1
0ish.jpg
 

Echo Six

Neo Member
Surprised at all the complaints about the flight model, I've been flying with an Extreme3D stick and thought it was great. What does bother me is that I can't read the radar to save my life, literally. Think it would be better if they reduced the opacity of the sphere and removed the wireframe model of your ship, would reduce clutter and make it easier to judge the positions of enemy contacts, especially when they're directly behind you.

Aside from that though, what's the highest wave you guys have got up to in VS? I hit 11 but got taken out by wreckage.
 

Zabojnik

Member
That white variant of the Redeemer is, in my opinion, the best looking ship exterior in the game thus far. Combined with the great work they've also done on the interior, 4H have got my vote.
 

Daedardus

Member
My take on the Boomslang is that it doesn't feel like an Origin ship. It's too bulky to my tastes and lacks elegance from what you expect to be a luxury company. The only negative about the Redeemer is that I have no idea how it's going to land and take off, so I hope they come with a solution for that.
 
I just can't see the Redeemer losing. Both great ships, but ... yeah. They nailed the presentation.

Yep. The Boomslang final presentation vid that's showing now is really lacking.

Edit: Just as I post that, they show some good presentation stuff! Interior does look very nice.
 

Zabojnik

Member
Yep. The Boomslang final presentation vid that's showing now is really lacking.

Edit: Just as I post that, they show some good presentation stuff! Interior does look very nice.

Yeaaah, but ... I don't know. Too simplistic, too samey and too evenly lit.

Ahahaha, these guys are awesome.

Also, dat Sandi.

EDIT: All these hints. I guess it's pretty much confirmed we're getting both.
 
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