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Star Citizen Pre-Alpha: 'Arena Commander' Dogfighting
- Thread starter MrBig
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Most of us, I'm sure. Including the judges, which was mentioned several times, but they had to look at the whole package and there were strict deadlines in place. Honestly, both 4H and Shard deserved to be in the final. Both ships are pretty 'safe' from a design standpoint (as were some of my other favourites), but hey, they asked for a gunship that would fit the SC universe, so I guess anything too crazy wasn't an option. I think we'll see some truly awesome stuff in season 2 of TNGS. You just know there are people working on their designs as we type. Seems like a great way to get noticed in the industry as well.
Mister_Bubbles
Member
I think that's a known bug.
onken
Member
Oh ok, thanks. Great so far though, I just fly around with my jaw on the floor since it runs pretty damn sweeeet on my rig.
If anyone's interested when the multiplayer becomes available, I can host teamspeak on my server. We're up to 114 members in the org now
Room for 115?
Well, judging from reactions like this:
It may frustrate people if they provide manual weapon aiming.
Perhaps a compromise would be manual weapon aiming with some sort of computer-calculated leading cursor, as some suggested.As has also been discussed, "realistically" everything would presumably be computer-enhanced or computer-controlled. But, as with stealth games, making things actually "realistic" would probably make it pretty unpleasant, boring, or not-fun.
The Dear Leader
Banned
Quick question for my fellow Aurora pilots, I know it's not possible to eject out of the Aurora but is it possible to leave the pilot seat to go to the bed or just walk around in the shit area, and what is the button to arm the missiles?
I don't think you can exit the Aurora pilot seat at this time. It's a flaw that needs to be patched. And to target and fire a missile you press the mouse wheel button once to target and again to fire it.
Teknopathetic
Member
"I find it astounding that a good portion of the RSI forums are defending the 'everything is a gimbal now' weapon approach"
My impression (hope, a very strong hope) is that this is temporary. The Scythe doesn't have any gimballed weapons and I hope once that's available to players it *stays* that way.
My impression (hope, a very strong hope) is that this is temporary. The Scythe doesn't have any gimballed weapons and I hope once that's available to players it *stays* that way.
Rudelord
Member
Well, judging from reactions like this:
It may frustrate people if they provide manual weapon aiming.
As has also been discussed, "realistically" everything would presumably be computer-enhanced or computer-controlled. But, as with stealth games, making things actually "realistic" would probably make it pretty unpleasant, boring, or not-fun.
If people are having issue with hitting things, that is an issue with your controls, weapon velocities, or the flight model. Making everything freeaim and autotrack is NOT the way to go.
One can only hope, or this will be a very shortlived game for me.
Didn't know the eject issue was with the Aurora. I thought it was just me.
You can leave the ship, though. Takes some luck but it's possible to land the thing without it glitching. Middle mouse is for the missiles, click to lock-on/arm and another click to fire.
An interview with Travis Day Tales of Citizens did. There's a lot of very good information in it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_SFmrGxnVw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_SFmrGxnVw
What's your rig?!
Every owner of the buggy has the same problem and it's a known bug.
Teknopathetic
Member
That thread is why game skill ceilings have been plummeting for over a decade.
Rudelord
Member
trust me, I read the entire thing and I still couldn't find a single justified reason for gimping the controls down to this level aside from 'muh realism and immersion'
if the devs cannot find a way to make fixed weapons work when so many other space and flight sims have...well.
yep, I couldn't believe that there were people actually defending the current weapon system.
licktheenvelope
Member
That logic does follow a slippery slope, and I agree developers on a whole have been leaning on the easier side of things for awhile.
I think they should make the non-gimballed weapons do more DPS, so it could create a healthy environment of new players who choose gimballed weapons until they are confident enough in their ability to hit to choose the more rewarding non-gimballed weapons.
onken
Member
4770k and a 780 Ti, 16GB RAM. I run 1080p at very high settings - I don't have fps count on but it feels like 45-60fps
Dictator93
Member
That sounds like a healthy approach. Some sort of in fiction like... no gimbal means more room for the capacitors or something.
If you wanted you could even take it a step further with projectile speed. If you put more power into weapons each shot could pack more punch, but the projectiles would travel slower (do these lasers even obey momentum laws?). It would be a cool mechanic where you want to do the most damage possible when the opponent's shields are down and when you know you will hit the opponent. This could even help solve the entire reason why auto-locking gimballed weapons were created (multiple lead indicators for weapons with different projectile speeds), just let the players tweak the weapon power vs projectile speeds to make sure all their weapons shoot at nearly the same speed... I think I'm getting a bit OT here
.I understand the devs situation a little: in a game where ships are too hard to hit, most players turn to lock-on missiles to do the aiming for them, which creates the missile meta. Relying entirely on missiles takes a large chunk out of the skill needed to pilot these spaceships. Where using lasers for hours can help hone your shooting skill, missiles don't teach the player anything about aiming and leading targets. Only the best players can use the laser weapons to their potential.
However the solution the devs made with auto-locking gimballed weapons could have thrown out that skill-ceiling anyways, so who knows what they are planning.
So people are complaining about that it isn't "future and realism" if the weapons aren't gimballed, but then don't complain about the simple fact that the ships have cockpits or windows? That the larger ships have bridges with huge glass windows looking out? That it simply isn't EVE Online and you just point and click at an enemy, activate a weapon and let it shoot for you while you are inside a huge jelly egg deep inside the belly of your ship hooked into the computers?
I don't think they should cherry pick what they like out of their so called "realistic future".
I don't think they should cherry pick what they like out of their so called "realistic future".
I'm all for options, really.
I can't fly worth shit, but IMHO a gimbal-everything Star Citizen is a vastly less fun Star Citizen.
Sure, in the beginning you won't hit anything. That's what it means to be a newb. That's why we should have moderately weak weapons that do half the aiming for you. When you're good enough at flying you might want to add one non-gimballed weapon for the high risk, high damage occasion. Once you're amazeballs and can fly unassisted through an asteroid field in motion you might even be able to forego gimbals for all your weapons. It's called skill progression. It needs to be in SC, if you ask me.
Oh well.
I can't fly worth shit, but IMHO a gimbal-everything Star Citizen is a vastly less fun Star Citizen.
Sure, in the beginning you won't hit anything. That's what it means to be a newb. That's why we should have moderately weak weapons that do half the aiming for you. When you're good enough at flying you might want to add one non-gimballed weapon for the high risk, high damage occasion. Once you're amazeballs and can fly unassisted through an asteroid field in motion you might even be able to forego gimbals for all your weapons. It's called skill progression. It needs to be in SC, if you ask me.
Oh well.
I don't understand how a concept that worked so goddamned well in TIE Fighter and Freespace is now unworkable in Star Citizen. I've always seen leading a target as a primary skill in space sims and everything is designed around it.
If the ships are too maneuverable to hit anything, maybe the flight model should be tweaked so it's easier. Or balance weapons/shields so that the fastest ships go down faster.
If the ships are too maneuverable to hit anything, maybe the flight model should be tweaked so it's easier. Or balance weapons/shields so that the fastest ships go down faster.
This would be my preferred solution as well. I get where the "fuck gimbaled" folk are coming from, I really do. However I think there's room for both in SC and that it is mostly a balancing issue. Although I'm not exactly sure how do you make gimbaled work in a HOTAS setup.
Reddit made a transcript of the Travis Day interview. It's a must read.
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/145953/transcript-from-the-travis-day-interview#latest
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/145953/transcript-from-the-travis-day-interview#latest
I lean towards this feeling. Plus, if you're realistically in space traveling at crazy speeds and crazy distances, isn't it going to be nearly impossible to land any sort of projectile?
Plus, real life lasers are instant instead of Star Wars plasma-blast blobs.
I think it comes down to people wanting a WWII-style, X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter-esque dogfight mechanic regardless of other factors, and that's understandable.
Buy the Aurora MR+ package (which comes with beta access) and buy the Arena Commander pass and you're good to go.
The aurora LN is the badass version of it, more guns better engine and all that. It costs just a little bit more. You can always upgrade later if you want too.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/store/318-aurora-ln
Upgrade: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/store/306-rsi-aurora-ln-upgrade
Edit: In fact it's only five more dollers.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/store/318-aurora-ln
Upgrade: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/store/306-rsi-aurora-ln-upgrade
Edit: In fact it's only five more dollers.
Cheesyhobo
Member
The point of gimballed weapons is to make the focus of the game on the flight model, instead of as a glorified 3D FPS. This is why the decoupled mode is in the game, but the issue right is that it doesn't seem to have been perfected yet, as it is missing axes and still has momentum issues. Comparing it to casual dogfighters like Freespace and TIE Fighter (a.k.a WW2 in space) that have unrealistic physics models and completely limited axes and movement is completely off the mark. If you've played games with Newtonian flight models and a full range of movement like Independence War 1/2, Evochron Mercenary, the Diaspora mod for Freespace 2, you would realize why autoaim is necessary as your primary focus by far will be on flight maneuvres, and just being able to center on your target consistently is an accomplishment in itself. You would need a third hand to be able to lead targets at the same time.
I expect my head to do the job of that third hand.
Well if they ever end up having a good implementation of the oculus rift, which apparently isn't the case yet.
metalshade
Member
I don't see why gimbals need to be balanced for joystick users, I mean, joysticks are for enthusiasts, who are unlikely to need the assistance that gimbals provide?
Yeah forgot about that, laser weapons are not realism either. If anything beam weapons are the closest possible. I think the "realism" argument is just used at this point in lack of any better argument for it because they either A: Want it to be easy or B: Just wanna find a reason to agree with the developers decision cause let's face it, its a official forum, that is what people do there.
The game looks gorgeous, but I can't help but feel that the controls feel kind of clunky. Both joystick and kb/m versions, though the game does seem obviously designed around kb/m first.
It also really bothers me how there is no apparent feedback from taking hits. You just eventually get shield/damage warnings, but there's no sound of you actually getting hit. Unless it's a bug or setting that I'm missing?
It also really bothers me how there is no apparent feedback from taking hits. You just eventually get shield/damage warnings, but there's no sound of you actually getting hit. Unless it's a bug or setting that I'm missing?
It really does. I honestly didn't expect the game to turn out like this. I figured most space sim fans were into the same stuff I'm into, and virtually none of my favorite space sims are playable with a mouse. I figured I'd only have to be concerned with the game being 10 years late or missing features, not with the entire targeting system.
Good thing I didn't pull the trigger on that Warthog HOTAS is all I have to say
No, you're right. Audio design is very lacking and there's almost no visual indication of incoming damage. Alpha is alpha I guess.
Yeah. The good thing is that they have plenty of time to digest all this feedback and work on it. It is definitely a very early alpha and they just wanted to show us something of what they were working on, and htey did accomplish that.
CitizenVectron
Member
I for one am incredibly against any form of auto-aim/auto-leading. If the movement and combat combine to make an un-fun experience, then in my opinion the movement system is the one that needs to compromise, not the other way around.
I have used a joystick for 3D newtonian-style combat before and it wasn't an issue! Heck, there are awesome BSG-themed mods out there for this type of experience, and they are really fun. If the entire reason for this compromise is because a mouse and keyboard can't handle the controls, then I am quite disappointed.
As a person who was most looking forward to the combat in this game, this makes my hype drop by about 50% as it will result in a much more simple experience. And if they are using the reasoning of "well, realistically in space you'd need these sorts of things to hit anything," then I would respond that in real space combat you wouldn't even use manned ships due to g-force constraints, you'd use ai-controlled missile ships that can have turrets that track in any direction at all times. And going a step further, you probably wouldn't even have any ballistic weapons at all due to the velocities and distances involved.
If they want to make the game fun, then they definitely need to dumb some parts of it down, and I accept that. But the combat? I would guess that's what most people are looking forward to, and what a large chunk of the game will be based around. So count me as one of the disappointed in this news that all weapons will be gimballed and manual aiming/skill gimped.
I have used a joystick for 3D newtonian-style combat before and it wasn't an issue! Heck, there are awesome BSG-themed mods out there for this type of experience, and they are really fun. If the entire reason for this compromise is because a mouse and keyboard can't handle the controls, then I am quite disappointed.
As a person who was most looking forward to the combat in this game, this makes my hype drop by about 50% as it will result in a much more simple experience. And if they are using the reasoning of "well, realistically in space you'd need these sorts of things to hit anything," then I would respond that in real space combat you wouldn't even use manned ships due to g-force constraints, you'd use ai-controlled missile ships that can have turrets that track in any direction at all times. And going a step further, you probably wouldn't even have any ballistic weapons at all due to the velocities and distances involved.
If they want to make the game fun, then they definitely need to dumb some parts of it down, and I accept that. But the combat? I would guess that's what most people are looking forward to, and what a large chunk of the game will be based around. So count me as one of the disappointed in this news that all weapons will be gimballed and manual aiming/skill gimped.
onken
Member
Recorded this for a friend and thought I'd throw it in here for the funsies. 1080p60 footage on very high settings. Enjoy!
http://www.gamersyde.com/thqstream_...e_dogfighting_module-VjcXyTuZyAkplyrW_en.html
http://www.gamersyde.com/thqstream_...e_dogfighting_module-VjcXyTuZyAkplyrW_en.html
GHG
Gold Member
Thanks dude.
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