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[Skyzard]

I got my Track IR Pro clip yesterday and spent the day testing things out.

Don't bother with freetrack (not supported by devs for a few years now, causes game crashing and has less functionality than the alternatives (although it has a cool skull thing that shows your head movements when you're setting it up)). Get FacetracknoIR instead and select the point tracking module (which is IR) and it works fantastically. --- There is an option to use Webcam only to track your face - it works better than I thought but I didn't spend long with it.

PS2 eyetoy works decently without modifications - at night or a dark set up perhaps.
PS3 eye (watch out, there are 2 versions and SLEH-00201 is the one needed to be able to remove the built in IR filter) works even better and is set it to 75fps at the same resolution (vs 30 on ps2 eyetoy) - no issues with daylight IR interference - I used floppydisc material to block normal light.

It's fucking sweet for flying games and great for racing games. Been meaning to get into ARMA 3, might get around to it now.

Takes a little while to remember not to look around so much when going fast (you'll crash in SC) but otherwise, so good, not much adjustment at all.
When racing I set deadzones so I can move my head some more while still being able to judge speed well. Can adjust the curves pretty easily, disable axis etc Very nice.

Space games, it's a must. Look around while still being in control, understand the situation you are in, or where you should go - much better.

£3 for the Sony eye (ps3) from C-E-X
£35 for the trackir pro clip, got mine from ebay - you can make your own IR source to wear if you prefer.

It gives you a lot of freedom, well worth the setup:

http://d.maxfile.ro/zgwrgl.webm

^jittering as I hadn't chosen a filter in facetracknoir (low pass sort of thing).

 

[phoenixyz]

I wouldn't call it greed, after all these concept sales will be below the latter prices for the ship. If it was pure greed they wouldn't bother with that discount at all. Also, none of this funding is actually profit, it doesn't go to line anyone's wallets, it all goes into the game's funding. Is it really that wrong to want as big a budget as they can get?

The further they go and the less integrity they show in that regard the more I doubt that they will suddenly stop all that milking-the-playerbase-bullshit as soon as the game goes live.

 

[SnowTeeth]

The further they go and the less integrity they show in that regard the more I doubt that they will suddenly stop all that milking-the-playerbase-bullshit as soon as the game goes live.

It's a crowd-sourced funded game. It always has been. What's your problem?

Your claim that they are showing "less integrity" for making money to make this game is laughable. The game is hugely ambitious and will continue to grow in scope. That requires money - does it not?

As said previously, the money is being used to fund the game, not to line someone's pockets. This "milking-the-playerbase-bullshit" is crap because people are willingly contributing money because they want to support the development of Star Citizen - not because they are mindless money dispensers.

No I'm not being defensive because I've spent a butt-load of money on this game. I have one ship and plan on buying the rest in-game.

 

[phoenixyz]

It's a crowd-sourced funded game. It always has been. What's your problem?

Your claim that they are showing "less integrity" for making money to make this game is laughable. The game is hugely ambitious and will continue to grow in scope. That requires money - does it not?

As said previously, the money is being used to fund the game, not to line someone's pockets. This "milking-the-playerbase-bullshit" is crap because people are willingly contributing money because they want to support the development of Star Citizen - not because they are mindless money dispensers.

No I'm not being defensive because I've spent a butt-load of money on this game. I have one ship and plan on buying the rest in-game.

The wales are contributing money because the want shiny ships, not to "support the development". That's a result, but certainly not the motivation.
Why should CIG not build all kinds of stupid F2P mechanisms into the PU, seeing how much money they make already by selling virtual ships in an early pre-alpha game? That's what worries me.
And yeah, you are not at all defensive, as your well thought out arguments interspersed with words like "laughable" and "crap" show.

 

[SnowTeeth]

The wales are contributing money because the want shiny ships, not to "support the development".

Is that a fact? I've heard a few streamers on Twitch state that they buy ships to support the game. Are they bullshitting? You do realize that people know that they can buy ships in game rather quickly don't you?

Okay sure, some people spend their money frivolously - so what? That's no reason insinuate that CIG are corrupt.

Why should CIG not build all kinds of stupid F2P mechanisms into the PU, seeing how much money they make already by selling virtual ships in an early pre-alpha game? That's what worries me.

What F2P mechanisms are you referring to? The game isn't F2P. What are you actually worried about?

And yeah, you are not at all defensive, as your well thought out arguments interspersed with words like "laughable" and "crap" show.

That is because your argument is in fact laughable and crap. Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzYoaHY_SVE#t=11m07s

 

[phoenixyz]

Is that a fact? I've heard a few streamers on Twitch state that they buy ships to support the game. Are they bullshitting?

Of course. That makes so much sense, since the funding never spikes when there's a sale of some new, obscenely expensive ship... Oh no wait, it does!

You do realize that people know that they can buy ships in game rather quickly don't you?

What F2P mechanisms are you referring to? The game isn't F2P. What are you actually worried about?

That's exactly the kind of gullibility which bugs me. How do you know you will be able to buy the ships ingame rather quickly? How do you know the game will not be balanced for the people who purchase big amounts of ingame-currency for real money all the time, instead of the people who "just play"? I am incredibly excited for Star Citizen, but I think Premium-Real-Money-bullshit is even more dangerous then the ever-present feature creep. Until now we have nothing but promises while CIG acts the total opposite.

That is because your argument is in fact laughable and crap

Wow.

 

[elyetis]

Wow.

Almost feel like being on the official forum.

 

[SnowTeeth]

Of course. That makes so much sense, since the funding never spikes when there's a sale of some new, obscenely expensive ship... Oh no wait, it does!

New ship goes on sale. People like new ship. People buy new ship. Again, so what?

People are obviously getting excited for content and spend money as a result. Is it not reasonable to think that they also want to contribute to the development of more content they like? Why is it a crime to like something a lot?

That's exactly the kind of gullibility which bugs me. How do you know you will be able to buy the ships ingame rather quickly?

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/3232568/#Comment_3232568

I should mention that "rather quickly" meant a week or two. Ben's comment elaborates on that time frame and how it's going to work.

How do you know the game will not be balanced for the people who purchase big amounts of ingame-currency for real money all the time, instead of the people who "just play"? I am incredibly excited for Star Citizen, but I think Premium-Real-Money-bullshit is even more dangerous then the ever-present feature creep.

There's no evidence that this will happen. CIG are no doubt aware of such concerns so to have a game balanced in such a way makes no sense. Why would they do that?

CIG have stated that they will never sell anything that can’t be acquired through honest gameplay and the fact that people who spend real money on stuff doesn't mean that will have an innate advantage over those that don't. It's a skill based game not simply some scam to make Chris Roberts get rich(er).

"Feature creep" is another baseless claim with no evidence to back it up.

Until now we have nothing but promises while CIG acts the total opposite

What? What are you talking about?

Wow.

Oh come on I was being silly. Sorry.

 

[SnowTeeth]

Almost feel like being on the official forum.

Which I never use btw.

I'm just sick of the unwarranted criticism. I see it all over the internet and statements that CIG are being dodgy in some way, which you are claiming, have not an ounce of truth to them. It seems like pure negative speculation and tall-poppy syndrome to me.

The development of Star Citizen has been the most open and transparent in game development history yet people always find a way to hate. It's disappointing, and I'll continue to voice my frustration at those negative comments all day long.

 

[phoenixyz]

First of all, I am neither implying nor insinuating that CR or CIG is a scam, fraud etc. Star Citizen is the game I am most excited about. If that wasn't the case I wouldn't even bother worrying about it.

I should mention that "rather quickly" meant a week or two. Ben's comment elaborates on that time frame and how it's going to work.
[...]
CIG have stated that they will never sell anything that can’t be acquired through honest gameplay and the fact that people who spend real money on stuff doesn't mean that will have an innate advantage over those that don't. It's a skill based game not simply some scam to make Chris Roberts get rich(er).
[...]
What? What are you talking about?

That's exactly what I mean. Until now we have nothing but promises. But there were no concessions whatsoever to the money-making-machine which make those promises believable. You can't tryout ships you haven't bought, you can't try the new hangars (although CR literally said we would be able to), you can't try different weapons etc. You have to pay for everything.

There's no evidence that this will happen. CIG are no doubt aware of such concerns so to have a game balanced in such a way makes no sense. Why would they do that?

Because that's the way they are making all their money. Also, all the wales who spend thousands of dollars will be at CIGs throat if, one month after release, everybody will be able to fly the same ships as them.

 

[epmode]

That's exactly what I mean. Until now we have nothing but promises. But there were no concessions whatsoever to the money-making-machine which make those promises believable. You can't tryout ships you haven't bought, you can't try the new hangars (although CR literally said we would be able to), you can't try different weapons etc. You have to pay for everything.

Yep. The hangar thing is pretty telling. I suppose the official explanation is that they don't want to piss off anyone who paid a ridiculous premium for a hangar type before the new system was rolled out. Just provide refunds and stop looking like greedy assholes.

It's also insane that CIG was charging real money for weapons and equipment that were entirely unusable in a game so far off that the developers themselves don't know how worthwhile it will be.

It's reasonable to assume that CIG will continue to cater to this playerbase when the game goes live. Servers don't pay for themselves, after all.

 

[MasterOfPastures]

It's reasonable to assume that CIG will continue to cater to this playerbase when the game goes live. Servers don't pay for themselves, after all.

Too true. But will that mean that they will not allow people to make and host their own servers? Or the offline version of the PU? I believe they'll still release that promise... maybe 6 months after launch.

 

[SnowTeeth]

That's exactly what I mean. Until now we have nothing but promises. But there were no concessions whatsoever to the money-making-machine which make those promises believable. You can't tryout ships you haven't bought, you can't try the new hangars (although CR literally said we would be able to), you can't try different weapons etc. You have to pay for everything.

I'm not sure I understand. I literally don't know what promises you're referring to. Aren't all those thing going to be available in game for anyone to earn and play with?

I just don't see how they're being greedy or having no integrity for utilizing a business model that has proven to be fruitful during the crowd funding campaign. People are buying those items with the understanding that you can earn them in game and that the money earned is spent on developing the game further, it's a win-win. Or so I thought. I still don't get what the problem is (sorry) and I'm sure you have valid concerns but I still see no reason not to trust CIG to come good on most of their promises.

 

[KKRT00]

Because that's the way they are making all their money. Also, all the wales who spend thousands of dollars will be at CIGs throat if, one month after release, everybody will be able to fly the same ships as them.

And they will gain nothing from it.
I'm saying this for like 10th time, look at EVE Online business mode. Space Sims MMOs are not theme park fantasy MMOs, they work in different way, especially in terms of economy and progression.

 

[phoenixyz]

I'm not sure I understand. I literally don't know what promises you're referring to. Aren't all those thing going to be available in game for anyone to earn and play with?

I just don't see how they're being greedy or having no integrity for utilizing a business model that has proven to be fruitful during the crowd funding campaign. People are buying those items with the understanding that you can earn them in game and that the money earned is spent on developing the game further, it's a win-win. Or so I thought. I still don't get what the problem is (sorry) and I'm sure you have valid concerns but I still see no reason not to trust CIG to come good on most of their promises.

Yes everything is gonna be available for everyone for ingame money. That doesn't mean anything game-design-wise though. For many "Freemium" games most content is, in theory, attainable without spending real money. But in those games progession is balanced to only be fun if you spend real money. I am worried that SC will be the same.

And they will gain nothing from it.
I'm saying this for like 10th time, look at EVE Online business mode. Space Sims MMOs are not theme park fantasy MMOs, they work in different way, especially in terms of economy and progression.

If SC will be as grindy as EVE I'll be very disappointed. Also economy-wise you can't compare Eve and SC. CR already said that players won't be able to e.g. assemble ships. The whole economy will be much more NPC/developer controlled in SC.

 

[SnowTeeth]

Yes everything is gonna be available for everyone for ingame money. That doesn't mean anything game-design-wise though. For many "Freemium" games most content is, in theory, attainable without spending real money. But in those games progession is balanced to only be fun if you spend real money. I am worried that SC will be the same.

I get why it is a problem, I just don't think it'll end up that way. If there's evidence to the contrary I haven't seen it yet. What specifically has lead you to think it's likely?

The first post here and an interview with Chris here eases most concerns for me, especially as there isn't much else to make me think otherwise. It is clear that the F2P concerns have been heard by CIG, which they acknowledge and are actively against - so again, why would they ignore their previous statements and go full F2P? I agree it is a legitimate concern if it turns out to be true, but it just seems incredibly unlikely.

The whole economy will be much more NPC/developer controlled in SC.

But it won't be according to this and this...


If these are the types promises you are talking about then I get why you would be worried if they were broken. To me it all seems like fundamental design choices built in to the basics of the game. I see no reason to speculate otherwise. I'd love to see evidence that these promises will be broken if you have it.

 

[phoenixyz]

I get why it is a problem, I just don't think it'll end up that way. If there's evidence to the contrary I haven't seen it yet. What specifically has lead you to think it's likely?
[...]
If these are the types promises you are talking about then I get why you would be worried if they were broken. To me it all seems like fundamental design choices built in to the basics of the game. I see no reason to speculate otherwise. I'd love to see evidence that these promises will be broken if you have it.

The way they act now. As I have said, the fact that there have been no concessions whatsoever is not really assuring. Also, there can't be any "evidence" to the contrary at this time (there is no "evidence" that they will abide by their promises either). You have to evaluate what they are doing at the moment because that's imo a better way to make predictions about the future than believing anything the community manager says.

The first post here and an interview with Chris here eases most concerns for me, especially as there isn't much else to make me think otherwise. It is clear that the F2P concerns have been heard by CIG, which they acknowledge and are actively against - so again, why would they ignore their previous statements and go full F2P? I agree it is a legitimate concern if it turns out to be true, but it just seems incredibly unlikely.

If anything this makes me even more uneasy. "Pay for Convenience/Saving Time" are exactly the kind of mechanics that can break a game terribly for everyone who doesn't pay. The game shouldn't feel inconvenient or like a time waster in the first place, but if they need to keep some cash flow coming in they will think twice about making it easy/easier to get better/bigger ships.
Funny thing is, they always claim the game will be fun no matter what ship you fly. But they always say it when it comes to the starter/"cheaper" ships. Although you could turn that argument around and make a case for the easy availabilty of the bigger ships just as easily.

But it won't be according to this and this...

This stuff is ancient. Iirc CR said in one of the 10ftC that players will most likely not be able to influence the economy to an extent we know from e.g. Eve, because if prices/material flows/etc. leave a certain range the NPCs will take over.

 

[KKRT00]

If SC will be as grindy as EVE I'll be very disappointed. Also economy-wise you can't compare Eve and SC. CR already said that players won't be able to e.g. assemble ships. The whole economy will be much more NPC/developer controlled in SC.

EVE is not grindy.
And i havent said that economy will be like EVE, but it will similar. It will much more similar than any other game on the market.

---

Yes everything is gonna be available for everyone for ingame money. That doesn't mean anything game-design-wise though. For many "Freemium" games most content is, in theory, attainable without spending real money. But in those games progession is balanced to only be fun if you spend real money. I am worried that SC will be the same.

Like what games? Give names.

 

[Zabojnik]

Sigh.

 

[Blizzard]

Like what games? Give names.

In League of Legends, for example, you can't even get skins for free in most cases. However, you can in theory unlock all champions.

I've probably played 1000-2000 games at this point, probably over A THOUSAND HOURS that I would have better spent doing something productive. As a result, I have farmed...114 out of 121 champions. It will still probably take me another 4-6 months to get the final 7 (by which time 2-3 more may be released).

 

[Sax Russel]

Sigh.

^ x 1000

 

[KKRT00]

In League of Legends, for example, you can't even get skins for free in most cases. However, you can in theory unlock all champions.

I've probably played 1000-2000 games at this point, probably over A THOUSAND HOURS that I would have better spent doing something productive. As a result, I have farmed...114 out of 121 champions. It will still probably take me another 4-6 months to get the final 7 (by which time 2-3 more may be released).

Completely different kind of game and still i dont think LoL is freemium game [i have over 600h in this game, but i'm through with it ]

 

[Skyzard]

I'm liking the increasing presence of m50s, and ganging up on hornets in battle royale

 

[Daedardus]

Bah, I don't care anyway, reserving a few hundred dollars to pledge for my 890 Jump concept sale!

 

[SnowTeeth]

Apologies for harping on about this but I just saw a thread on reddit today regarding the P2W fears that some of you may have. It's a lengthy, well explained and unbiased post that brings up some really good points:

http://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/2h8p72/a_look_at_the_payment_model_for_star_citizen/


The TL;DR is

* Currently pay to win, won't be in the future.
* Still a big problem, needs to be addressed.

 

[staticneuron]

The TL;DR is

* Currently pay to win, won't be in the future.
* Still a big problem, needs to be addressed.

It is technically not a game at this point but alpha tests. Pay to win, implies the core mechanics of the game is complete and that you would be provided an advantage if you paid more money. Again the game isn't complete and for people like me who are interest in SC for exploration or other aspects such as trading, mining, transport or any other non hostile activity it is more than apparent that the experience we are waiting for isn't even there.

 

[MrBig]

It is technically not a game at this point but alpha tests. Pay to win, implies the core mechanics of the game is complete and that you would be provided an advantage if you paid more money. Again the game isn't complete and for people like me who are interest in SC for exploration or other aspects such as trading, mining, transport or any other non hostile activity it is more than apparent that the experience we are waiting for isn't even there.

While I share your view of AC, that does not mean such issues should be dismissed. AC in itself is its own game inside of SC, and provides a gameplay experience that apparently many people feel is worth their time. If you were to read the linked post you would see the current state of affairs and why this is an issue: people that wish to spend a lot of time actively looking for problems and adapting to changing mechanics are blocked behind a paywall, and the people that want to just spend time shooting things and enjoying that aspect in itself once again find themselves limited by a paywall, leaving only those that have a lot of money to throw at the game, and wish to do so, upsetting the balance.

 

[KKRT00]

Judging the game's model in current state is at least silly. You cant even buy ships for credits yet, come on ...

--

leaving only those that have a lot of money to throw at the game, and wish to do so, upsetting the balance.

What balance? You cant even fly 5% of all ships from the final game, that without even mentioning modules and overclocking.

 

[MrBig]

Judging the game's model in current state is at least silly. You cant even buy ships for credits yet, come on ...

--

What balance? You cant even fly 5% of all ships from the final game, that without even mentioning modules and overclocking.

I'm referring to social perception in the post, as that is what this issue is about. Judging and understanding the current state of SC is vital at this point in time.

 

[elyetis]

http://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/2h8p72/a_look_at_the_payment_model_for_star_citizen/


The TL;DR is

* Currently pay to win, won't be in the future.
* Still a big problem, needs to be addressed.

Completly agree. While I do also agree that the most important thing is the released version of the game, it doesn't make the alpha stage any less "pay to win", and it could be for years ( woudln't be surprised if early PU alpha doesn't allowyou to unlock ship, etc ).

1/ Temporarily unlock all of the flyable ships for all players until there is an in-game way to unlock things without spending real money.
2/ Improve the multiplayer so that people can filter their lobbies by ship type so that they only have to fight other Auroras, or race against other 300is.

Yup.
1/ is a no brainer, and the only reason not to do it is to protect the precious feeling of the whales.
2/ *and variations* ( point system for ships, used to balance teams; etc.. ) should be one of the highest priority if they want AC to be taken seriously. I still don't get why racing was worked on and released before something like that got implemented.

 

[Daedardus]

That Reclaimer... It looks absolutely wonderfu- uhh I mean it's a disgrace that CIG continues to cater to the whale demographic by sucking out all the money in their wallets by continuining to sell these overpriced ships along with the added benefit of LTI which was supposed to be limited just so they can rake in more money even though they should have enough to fund the game but they apparantly don't because they wasted it all on sportscars since the development has been slow since the beginning.

 

[Mister_Bubbles]

Apparently each engine bit is the size of a Constellation... dayum.

 

[Keasar]

Apparently each engine bit is the size of a Constellation... dayum.

The hell is that monster? I can read Aegis on the front.

 

[Dictator93]

The hell is that monster? I can read Aegis on the front.

Harvester? I forget its name.

EDIT: RECLAIMER.

 

[TheVoidDragon]

Completly agree. While I do also agree that the most important thing is the released version of the game, it doesn't make the alpha stage any less "pay to win", and it could be for years ( woudln't be surprised if early PU alpha doesn't allowyou to unlock ship, etc ).
Yup.
1/ is a no brainer, and the only reason not to do it is to protect the precious feeling of the whales.
2/ *and variations* ( point system for ships, used to balance teams; etc.. ) should be one of the highest priority if they want AC to be taken seriously. I still don't get why racing was worked on and released before something like that got implemented.

I would like to be able to at least test other ships but there is a reason for not allowing everyone to use all of the ships without paying at the moment. The game is entirely crowdfunded, people donating to get ships is how they are getting money to make the game. It's got nothing to do with what people who have already given money for ships would think.

 

[Tommyhawk]

Apparently each engine bit is the size of a Constellation... dayum.

I have to say this is imho their best looking ship so far.
It reminds me a lot of a hybrid between the Prometheus and the Nostromo.

That thing is also really gigantic it's even bigger than the Idris.

 

[Mister_Bubbles]

Aye, The Reclaimer. It goes on sale tomorrow, so will be salvaging money from people's bank accounts in large amounts soon no doubt.

I'm interested to see what they charge, as like you say, Kaeser, it's a fucking monster. So whatever the case, it's gonna be a large sum.

 

[Dictator93]

BTW, just thought I would throw it out there that I am extremely jealous of anyone with a hornet. The interior of that ship looks so damn military. I just love it.

 

[elyetis]

I would like to be able to at least test other ships but there is a reason for not allowing everyone to use all of the ships without paying at the moment. The game is entirely crowdfunded, people donating to get ships is how they are getting money to make the game. It's got nothing to do with what people who have already given money for ships would think.

We *should* be past the point where they need to sacrifice players experience ( even during the early access to modules ) for the sake of funding.
Not saying all ships should always be insta unlocked, the link state some good ideas ( unlock ships and weapon in AC *by playing*, so that buying ship would only be a *shortcut* like it will be in PU, but not the only way not to be at a complet disavantage )

 

[Keasar]

THAT'S the Reclaimer!? I knew it was gonna be a little larger than most ships but not three times the size of Serenity. Awesome.

Screw combat piloting, salvaging is where its at.

 

[Zabojnik]

Apparently each engine bit is the size of a Constellation... dayum.

Jesus H. Christ.

BTW, just thought I would throw it out there that I am extremely jealous of anyone with a hornet. The interior of that ship looks so damn military. I just love it.

Can't wait to see some of the S42 ships. Military design ftw.

Spoiler

This is what years and years of playing military flight sims will do to you.

 

[KKRT00]

Apparently each engine bit is the size of a Constellation... dayum.

o_0

 

[epmode]

Retaliator greybox:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc-7Luzbxxg

Best ship.

Also, someone at CIG has good taste in music/films.

 

[The Dear Leader]

I'm trying to imagine the logistics of how the game will perform with like 10 ships on screen of the size and detail of the Retaliator and Constellation. It's going to be insane when actual Star Citizen launches.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Aye, The Reclaimer. It goes on sale tomorrow, so will be salvaging money from people's bank accounts in large amounts soon no doubt.

I'm interested to see what they charge, as like you say, Kaeser, it's a fucking monster. So whatever the case, it's gonna be a large sum.

'Bout three fiddy. $350 (!!!)

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/182088/reclaimer-pricing

 

[Shawsie64]

'Bout three fiddy. $350 (!!!)

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/182088/reclaimer-pricing

Do people seriously but these things for that much money? The post you linked to has people eating up that price tag for breakfast..

 

[epmode]

It's a severely underserved market with a ton of disposable income. Lots of whales. The hope is that CIG doesn't design the finished game and economy around the people who would gladly spend that kind of money.

 

[Keasar]

Do people seriously but these things for that much money? The post you linked to has people eating up that price tag for breakfast..

People bought the Idris for 5000 without hesitation.

 

[Ephemeris]

$350 is cheaper than I thought it would be Lol

 

[Iced_Eagle]

People bought the Idris for 5000 without hesitation.

Idris was $1,000 or $1,250 depending on the model if I recall correctly (two version were available at different times).

There have been people which bought the $10k Wing Commander pledge package though. Pretty crazy for me to comprehend, but it's not my money so they can choose to do it if they wish.