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Star Wars Question (opinions wanted) - OT and PT
- Thread starter Tabris
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Just something to note. It may have been harder without the "chosen one", and it may not have been destined to happen w/o the "chosen one", but there's a good chance the rise of Palpatine, the Empire and crushing of the Jedi order would have taken place without Anakin.
Then where would they have been? Palpatine and the Empire with no Luke and Anakin.
Then where would they have been? Palpatine and the Empire with no Luke and Anakin.
Tritroid
Member
I think Anakin is a fallen hero.
His position in Eps 1 - 3 is understandable; Being overly good at something, or having greater talent than those around you, and being forced to limit yourself because of the very boundaries of those that mentor you leads to utter frustration and anger.
And because of Palpatine's scheming, Anakin was easily overtaken by ideas that he thought was the right way to progress. He was promised greener pastures, and by God, he took it.
Unfortunately, by the time his duel ends with Kenobi, he has no option to turn back. Palpatine's hold over him is complete, and he can't escape it. This is very evident in VI, where Luke confronts Vader about his true identity, and his response is: "It is too late for me, son." Or when Palpatine and Luke are exchanging words in the DSII throne room, and Vader responds with: "It is pointless to resist, my son."
Anakin, or Vader, saw Luke as his only escape from Palpatine, as was evident in the vision that Palpatine had of being overthrown by him. Granted, his mindset was still twisted by the dark side (wanting Luke to join him in ruling the galaxy), but the urge to escape being under the emperor's influence was still there.
The moment where Vader destroys Palpatine is a perfect redeeming point. Instead of letting the emperor kill Luke, who had outright refused to take part in joining the dark side entirely, he chose to save him because he felt compassion for his son.
His position in Eps 1 - 3 is understandable; Being overly good at something, or having greater talent than those around you, and being forced to limit yourself because of the very boundaries of those that mentor you leads to utter frustration and anger.
And because of Palpatine's scheming, Anakin was easily overtaken by ideas that he thought was the right way to progress. He was promised greener pastures, and by God, he took it.
Unfortunately, by the time his duel ends with Kenobi, he has no option to turn back. Palpatine's hold over him is complete, and he can't escape it. This is very evident in VI, where Luke confronts Vader about his true identity, and his response is: "It is too late for me, son." Or when Palpatine and Luke are exchanging words in the DSII throne room, and Vader responds with: "It is pointless to resist, my son."
Anakin, or Vader, saw Luke as his only escape from Palpatine, as was evident in the vision that Palpatine had of being overthrown by him. Granted, his mindset was still twisted by the dark side (wanting Luke to join him in ruling the galaxy), but the urge to escape being under the emperor's influence was still there.
The moment where Vader destroys Palpatine is a perfect redeeming point. Instead of letting the emperor kill Luke, who had outright refused to take part in joining the dark side entirely, he chose to save him because he felt compassion for his son.
Synbios459
Banned
I've always wondered, was Anakin really the chosen one? Seeing as Luke managed to totally resist the dark side and whatnot I'd imagine Luke was? BTW, has it ever been expanded on by books or anything when Luke eventually died, or what happened many years (like thousands) of years later?
But see, he is, Anakin balanced the force.
What most people don't get is that the dark side unbalances the force. There's not supposed to be a dark side. So that imbalance was present during the PT and OT.
"Mace Windu: I think it is time we inform the senate that our ability to use the force has diminished.
Yoda: Only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed the senate is, multiply our adversaries will. "
The imbalance caused a diminishing on their ability to use the force. It was Palpatine's presense that was causing this imbalance.
To bring balance to the force, the chosen one was to kill Palpatine. And in the end, he did that. So he is still the chosen one.
What most people don't get is that the dark side unbalances the force. There's not supposed to be a dark side. So that imbalance was present during the PT and OT.
"Mace Windu: I think it is time we inform the senate that our ability to use the force has diminished.
Yoda: Only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed the senate is, multiply our adversaries will. "
The imbalance caused a diminishing on their ability to use the force. It was Palpatine's presense that was causing this imbalance.
To bring balance to the force, the chosen one was to kill Palpatine. And in the end, he did that. So he is still the chosen one.
Fair enough.
Third question. Do you think he is responsible for his actions? Being both twisted and seduced by the dark side and it's lord. Is he exempt, as would a soldier be when ordered to commit an atrocious act? or is he at blame because he didn't have the willpower (unlike Luke) to resist the seduction of the dark side and it's lord?
Third question. Do you think he is responsible for his actions? Being both twisted and seduced by the dark side and it's lord. Is he exempt, as would a soldier be when ordered to commit an atrocious act? or is he at blame because he didn't have the willpower (unlike Luke) to resist the seduction of the dark side and it's lord?
Kabuki Waq
Member
errr you guys reading too much into Starwars universe cmon the whole luke leia love story thing should have realized lucas just made the story as he went along.
I guess to figure that out is to ask if Palpatine had actual mind control over Vader or was he just a good manipulator? If it was just a matter of manipulation, then yeah, Anakin is 100% responsible. If Palpatine had an actual hold over Vader's mind then he's not. I think it's a matter of manipulation. Vader wasn't really a puppet. He even conspired to get rid of Palpatine and still try and rule the galaxy.
So yeah, Vader/Anakin is totally responsible for his actions.
So yeah, Vader/Anakin is totally responsible for his actions.
Kabuki Waq
Member
dudez the whole incest thing!!!
IAmtheFMan
Member
Tabris said:
Well, as per what EP:3 has to say about this, he is responsible but he's compelled by the desire to do what he believes is right; he wants to save Padme, and can't let go of these feelings that her doom is coming, and in the end, he ironically becomes the cause of it. He made the deal with the devil in order to try and do what was best, and in the end, it consumed him.
Synbios459
Banned
I have another question regarding "the chosen one". Is the prophecy of the chosen one meant JUST for Anakin, or is it a prophecy regarding just anyone who will be chosen to balance the force when needed? Because sure after RotJ all the known Sith guys are dead, but you know even if it's a thousand years later, that another Sith will come.
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
At the end of RotJ, there is only one Jedi left. Luke. There is a balance in that the Jedi, who had become arrogant and over confident, were overthrown and hunted down, while the Sith (Palpatine and Vader) had their day for a time. But with the death of Vader and the Emperor, it was all brought back to Luke, who could re-create the Jedi Order in a new fashion. Bringing them back to their roots.
It's true that we don't know if another Sith arrives, but remember, at that point, the two Sith Lords had been destroyed. There are only two Sith Lords, Master and Apprentice, and with both of them gone, who is going to train a new Sith Lord? I'm sure, in the Expanded Universe, they would have a fallen Jedi find a Sith Holocron or something, to learn the ways of the Sith, but in the context of the movies, the Sith have been defeated.
Also, the Dark Side of the Force is not what is causing things to be out of balance. The Dark Side will always exist, tempting any Jedi, or anyone who uses the Force for that matter. It's kind of like the Eastern Philosophy of Yin-Yang. The two sides can't exist with out the other, and there is a touch of each in the other as well. Destroying Palpatine doesn't cause the Dark Side of the Force to go away. He was seduced by it at some point, just as Vader was, and they both were tools of the Dark Side, but they didn't create the Dark Side, nor did it exist because of them.
It's true that we don't know if another Sith arrives, but remember, at that point, the two Sith Lords had been destroyed. There are only two Sith Lords, Master and Apprentice, and with both of them gone, who is going to train a new Sith Lord? I'm sure, in the Expanded Universe, they would have a fallen Jedi find a Sith Holocron or something, to learn the ways of the Sith, but in the context of the movies, the Sith have been defeated.
Also, the Dark Side of the Force is not what is causing things to be out of balance. The Dark Side will always exist, tempting any Jedi, or anyone who uses the Force for that matter. It's kind of like the Eastern Philosophy of Yin-Yang. The two sides can't exist with out the other, and there is a touch of each in the other as well. Destroying Palpatine doesn't cause the Dark Side of the Force to go away. He was seduced by it at some point, just as Vader was, and they both were tools of the Dark Side, but they didn't create the Dark Side, nor did it exist because of them.
Tabris said:
You left out the option "whiney bitch." This is in reference to the PT only. Despite his evilness Darth Vader always comes across not only as ruthless but intelligent, and despite the propensity for the dark side to emphasize anger as a tool he is quite cool and collected. There's no way I believe the characterization in the PT of Anakin as this cry-baby, overly histerical man-child, could evolve into that collected, calculating Darth Vader of the OT, and quite frankly aside from his force-abilities I don't even see why Palpatine would want anything to do with him given his behavior in the PT.
teiresias said:
All Palps cares about is his power.
Why the change in the OT? Probably becuase he gets owned by Obi Wan and is a shell of his former self. Anakin is arrogant and impetuous because he can always rely on his power. Once the suit goes on that is no longer the case.
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
He's also young, inexperienced, and impetuous in the PT. 20 years pass until we get to A New Hope. He has grown-up more, learned a lot, not only from the Emperor, but also from his conflict with Obi Wan. As he's aged, he's learned a lot, and the Dark Side has no doubt had an effect on him as well. For instance, as a youth, Anakin wasn't very patient. In the OT he still doesn't show much patience, but now he is in a position to use his power to do something about it. (For example, no patience with Imperial Officers means said Officer is "relieved of command".)
as we find out in ROTS, Anakin is manipulated into Vader. I still argue that there is no "Sign" that he is turning over, even in AOTC. Many people say his fall starts at the Tusken camp, but as we now know from rots, his fall doesn't begin then. even
all of that makes anakin a tragic figure, neither hero nor villain. he is someone who was manipulated into his position, and
as for redemption, on an objective scale, no, killing one man does not make up for killing the probably thousands of people he killed over the years.. however, on an objective scale, bringing balance to the force through self-sacrifice one might argue is enough to redeem oneself from virtually any past actions.
just my thoughts.
when confronted by palpatine and revealed to that palpatine is the sith lord, anakin goes to turn him in. even when mace confronts palpatine, anakin is ok with him being captured and held accountable, just not killed
all of that makes anakin a tragic figure, neither hero nor villain. he is someone who was manipulated into his position, and
as the description of "this is what it's like to be anakin skywalker... forever." shows, he embraces the darkness because at the end, that is all that will accept him
as for redemption, on an objective scale, no, killing one man does not make up for killing the probably thousands of people he killed over the years.. however, on an objective scale, bringing balance to the force through self-sacrifice one might argue is enough to redeem oneself from virtually any past actions.
just my thoughts.
teiresias said:
Actually, there're a number of times he comes off as moronic and clueless.
Tarkin: It is time we used alternative forms of persuasion...
Vader: What do you mean?
--
Emperor: He will come to you, and you will bring him to me.
Vader: HE will come to ME?
Emperor: What did I just say, foo'?!
--
Escape Goat
Member
mrkgoo said:
Reading those quotes made me laugh. :lol
Boogie9IGN
Member
Incognito said:
Prequel Trilogy (I-III)/Original Trilogy (IV-VI)
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