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[OmnipotentO]

The supply depot change seems a bit weird... but whatever I don't play T so I won't complain lol
wishlist:
They need to change AI so attack priority goes to repairing SCVs.
Make neural parasite last a little bit longer.
Make 1v1 maps bigger
Also shorten burrow time for spines and spores

<3333 that roach buff! FUCKING YES!

 

[HolyCheck]

Corrected that for you. In a team game I built carriers. What do you mean, the auto-building interceptors isn't on?? Isn't it by default? Nope. >.<

I have played protoss

 

[evangd007]

So what they've learned is that 1v1 TvZ is fine and Protoss is dominating all matchups? Who woulda guessed.

Actually, the most imba matchup seems to be Protoss vs Terran (in favour of Toss) right now, so it's a bit strange that they're concentrating on buffing Zerg and nerfing Terran only atm. Probably want to get that total percentage of people playing Zerg up at first.

The Reaper nerf seems aimed at balancing team games.

The one-time killer of all things Zerg is now completely useless. Speed comes too late to be of any use. I'm kind of hoping they'll take them out and replace them with something I'd actually want to use (Predator or Firebat w/ Juggernaut upgrade would be fun).

What makes Protoss so dominant over Terran at lower levels? I'm a baddie myself, and I feel like Terran is extremely accommodating of my lack of skill. Early game multi-gateway pressure is easier for people to execute than MM pushes? Colossuses are too effective at low levels?

Low level play is generally won by whoever can macro better, and Protoss have the easiest macro.

 

[traveler]

Disclaimer: I'm a gold/plat level player, so these observations are based solely on my lower league experiences.

-When would you go rax before depot outside a rush anyways?

-Looks like reapers are basically becoming the terran muta, and players need to utilize them more as such instead of just viewing them as a way to rush a win. Use them as quick scouts, expansion punishers, and counterattack raiders.

-Did not realize the PvT matchup was so off. What makes it so difficult for Terran? (I usually go marauders into vikings in that matchup and it seems to do well, but, once again, this from a random plat level player.)

Edit: Random note based on the surrounding convo- as a less skilled player, I've always found Zerg to have the easiest macro. I still play random, but they are by far the easiest race for me to play for some reason. Protoss are almost as easy but having everything coming out of one structure makes it so much easier for me to pull off interface wise, which is usually my biggest obstacle.

 

[FoxSpirit]

Low level play is generally won by whoever can macro better, and Protoss have the easiest macro.

Then the issue would even be worse against Zerg, who have by far the hardest macro.

In good honesty, for me as low level Zerg Toss is also harder. Zealots are a lot less squishy than marines and collosi/templars give me far more trouble than siege tanks.

 

[Pyke Presco]

The Roach range was definitely needed. Weakest of the three (Stalker, Marauder, Roach) in a straight up fight because the kiting is ridiculous. I'm terrible at micro and even I can stomp an equal number of roaches with minimal losses to stalkers, and you see the pros do it without taking a single hit because of the speed and range advantage.

Agreed on Reapers owning team games. Two Terran's Reaper rushing with like 4 guys (followed by more as they become available) can knock out a single player extremely quickly, or at least set him so far back that he is 5 minutes behind the other players. We'll see if this change actually makes a difference, the nitro doesn't really seem that essential for a team reaper stomp.

The supply depot thing...I understand where they're coming from. Protoss need the power field to build proxies, so this slows down the rax on nonsense like a proxy 8 rax to make things even, but for the average build (9/10 depot, 12/13 rax) it really makes no difference. I don't think it's really an issue unless you love doing your proxy rax all the time.

I was thinking at first the protoss win ratios seem high, but then I reconsidered. I definitely win about 60% of my games (gold, ~80 for 60), because the protoss units are just so god damn powerful and they can afford a couple mistakes a lot easier than delicate zerg and terran units. Ever see a misclicked bio-ball walk into a colossus, or a couple tanks moving past an immortal? Some hydra's wandering around off creep? It isn't pretty. You know what happens when a group of stalkers blunders into the enemy? "Oh shit, blink back. Whew, luckily that only cost me 20% of my guys." The other armies get vaporized at my level if you are caught out of position.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

Low level play is generally won by whoever can macro better, and Protoss have the easiest macro.

I'm curious why you think this. (Not denying that you're right...)

I find that Zerg easily have the most difficult, but I find Terran and Toss to be the easiest at the base "build probes and pylons" or "build scvs and depots". Their macro mechanic seems balanced as well. Chrono boost can be used to catch up on probe production if you go bonehead, but it needs to be kept up with and has other uses than pure probe building. Mules are similar in the early game and if you forget a couple cycles, you can just call down a few all at once.

I really think it's the strength of 4 gate over the macro mechanic. 4 gate is really strong and provides are very good early army that has a great composition. Terran can do the "equivalent" with a 1/1/1 build where they get MMM, but it is a bit trickier on the timings (I feel, but maybe that's because I play toss a lot more than terran) than a 4 gate--at least in the lower leagues.

 

[Sblargh]

4 gate + tank nerf = instawin in my, I dunno, 4 or 5 games against terran diamond.
I see a reaper, I win, they don't have enough army. I see a tank, I win unless you actually position them right, otherwise, zealots can now reach tanks (where they couldn't before) and my zealots into your tanks means you wasted a fuckload of resources for not that much damage.

I'm playing like shit against terran and still winning, just by making a lot of units and attack/move.

I would call for a Protoss nerf, but terrans destroyed me too much in the past with their "I'll put a ball of tanks anywhere and your units will evaporate" pre-patch game. I'm just enjoying their suffering too much to have any sense of justice.

(I'm platinum, but I'm playing an awful lot of terran diamonds lately)

 

[evangd007]

I'm curious why you think this. (Not denying that you're right...)

I find that Zerg easily have the most difficult, but I find Terran and Toss to be the easiest at the base "build probes and pylons" or "build scvs and depots". Their macro mechanic seems balanced as well. Chrono boost can be used to catch up on probe production if you go bonehead, but it needs to be kept up with and has other uses than pure probe building. Mules are similar in the early game and if you forget a couple cycles, you can just call down a few all at once.

I really think it's the strength of 4 gate over the macro mechanic. 4 gate is really strong and provides are very good early army that has a great composition. Terran can do the "equivalent" with a 1/1/1 build where they get MMM, but it is a bit trickier on the timings (I feel, but maybe that's because I play toss a lot more than terran) than a 4 gate--at least in the lower leagues.

Chronoboost is an easier mechanic to use than MULE/Scan. MULE/Scan is both a macro and an intel ability, which is split up in Protoss between Chrono and Observer (which is easier to use than Scan, especially at low levels where detection poorly utilized). Failing to do one instead of the other at a crucial moment can be disastrous, as Terran intel sucks until they get flying units. Lower level players often will just spam one instead of trying to make an informed decision.

In addition, queuing is more encouraged on the Terran side than the Protoss side thanks to Warp Gates. Low level Terran players will piss away resources making 3 Marauders at once which is patently impossible for Protoss players using Warp Gates, which also has a handy readiness indicator and built-in hotkey. Remember that hotkeying is also more rare the lower you go.

 

[Scrow]

I thought you play Zerg?

naw, i prefer protoss.

Basically, a 4 marauder drop or a few banshess can snipe a tech building a the blink of an eye. And something like a spire/greater spire takes ages to build.
So applaud that.

hmm, i guess. point taken.

 

[vicissitudes]

I have to agree with Protoss having easy macro. Once you get warpgate tech it's so easy to get an army. Chronoboost probes, click w and get instant army anywhere, anytime. Reapers/banshee harass? Summon 5 stalkers right next to mineral line. Expand time? Warp 3 more gateways for instant army production increase. And the stuff you can get out of gateways is insane. Mass stalkers, stalkers/zealots, stalkers/zealots/sentries, stalkers/zealots/high templars, so many good composition armies all with one key. It's like playing Zerg only no spawn larvae needed, they pop out of anywhere with no build time, and no army management (due to fewer units).

 

[Glix]

I haven't played in a month. I'm not good to begin with, but its amazing how bad I got. You really need to be dedicated, geez.

 

[Pandaman]

wow.
the supply depot thing seems unnecessary given the reaper speed nerf.

 

[Mudkips]

Balance changes to achieve desired win ratios is fucking retard.

The roach change is good.
All other changes are retarded.

 

[Corran Horn]

wow.
the supply depot thing seems unnecessary given the reaper speed nerf.

I would imagine it will go back after awhile.

 

[Scrow]

I have to agree with Protoss having easy macro. Once you get warpgate tech it's so easy to get an army. Chronoboost probes, click w and get instant army anywhere, anytime. Reapers/banshee harass? Summon 5 stalkers right next to mineral line. Expand time? Warp 3 more gateways for instant army production increase. And the stuff you can get out of gateways is insane. Mass stalkers, stalkers/zealots, stalkers/zealots/sentries, stalkers/zealots/high templars, so many good composition armies all with one key. It's like playing Zerg only no spawn larvae needed, they pop out of anywhere with no build time, and no army management (due to fewer units).

i sense a change in the wind... protoss in the new terran...

 

[TemplaerDude]

Oh for the love of... if GAF starts claiming Protoss to be OP I'm leaving!

 

[Scrow]

Oh for the love of... if GAF starts claiming Protoss to be OP I'm leaving!

every race will have its day as the "OP" race, whether it's true or not is something else entirely.

 

[Ferrio]

Anyone direct me to someplace that has the direct hard/soft counters for each unit?

The stuff I look up is most hard/soft counters to builds which isn't what I'm interested in.

 

[Pandaman]

also procarb will be happy 15hatch is back vs terran. :lol
damn, reaper nerfed AND supply requirement? i'd 15 hatch in every game.

 

[Won]

Oh for the love of... if GAF starts claiming Protoss to be OP I'm leaving!

It's just a matter of time at this point.

Anyone direct me to someplace that has the direct hard/soft counters for each unit?

The stuff I look up is most hard/soft counters to builds which isn't what I'm interested in.

www.starcraft2.com

 

[Pandaman]

Oh for the love of... if GAF starts claiming Protoss to be OP I'm leaving!

protoss already had its time as op.
now they're new zerg.

also did anyone else roll their eyes at the 'accounting for player skill' bit. :lol
smh blizzard.

 

[Ferrio]

www.starcraft2.com

Not very helpful.

 

[Won]

Not very helpful.

There is a game section, with all units and their counters.

 

[Corran Horn]

Yay protoss is OP again. Glad my race got back to the top!

 

[Sblargh]

A lot of terrans in diamond just don't know how to play the game. They are just riding the imbalace wave.
Had a game today where the guy made only 15 SCVs, how do you get in diamond halting SCVs production completely after the first push fail? It's that they got to diamond winning on the first push.

 

[Pandaman]

A lot of terrans in diamond just don't know how to play the game. They are just riding the imbalace wave.
Had a game today where the guy made only 15 SCVs, how do you get in diamond halting SCVs production completely after the first push fail? It's that they got to diamond winning on the first push.

i hate those guys.

they throw down this huge push and get your blood boilin', i get all excited thinking that im playing someone awesome and i check their base to spy their transition and... oh. he doesn't have one. i won the game 3 minutes ago and he was too stupid to gg. sigh, clean up duty.

oh well i always have valenti.
hellion harass okay, hellion into banshee his econ must be fuc- oh, apparently not, shit he's going factory/bio now... wtf more banshee, argh, *ragequit*

 

[vicissitudes]

every race will have its day as the "OP" race, whether it's true or not is something else entirely.

I think Zerg had it the day Fruitdealer won the GSL. Unfortunately it was a joke "OP" day

A lot of terrans in diamond just don't know how to play the game. They are just riding the imbalace wave.
Had a game today where the guy made only 15 SCVs, how do you get in diamond halting SCVs production completely after the first push fail? It's that they got to diamond winning on the first push.

That's horrible :lol

I've also seen people in team games who rush to two void rays and if that fails they don't know what to do with themselves :/

Spoiler

usually start building cannons in their own base

 

[Pandaman]

I think Zerg had it the day Fruitdealer won the GSL. Unfortunately it was a joke "OP" day

zerg had it in beta when 'more roach' solved everything.

 

[vicissitudes]

zerg had it in beta when 'more roach' solved everything.

Oh yeah. I didn't even play back then. Seemed like so long ago...

 

[Mutombo]

No one's ever really OP. I mean, I think I'm between bronze and silver right now, only just started climbing but climbing steadily, but the discussion on the battle.net fora is all about HOW DO I STOP THESE MMM BALLS?

To be honest, once the number of the marines, marauders and medivecs becomes a reasonable size, the only thing you can caunter it with is either a colussus or a high templar. High Templars take ages to build and require quite a lot of micro. Colussi can be rushed to and are quite good, but just get sniped by marauders or marines using stim. Not to mention the EMP's by the ghosts, only I've only seen the better players handle those types of combos.

Protoss OP? No.

 

[Yoshichan]

toss OP? Hahahahahhahahahahahhaha

 

[slidewinder]

There is a game section, with all units and their counters.

That info's also available through the in-game help, but only when you're actually playing a melee game as far as I can tell.

There's also the Team Liquid wiki.

 

[kamspy]

Might as well just remove the Reaper unit at this point.

I was kinda hoping Blizzard wouldn't pander to the crying minority. But they did. Probably to appease their forum mods that have to wade through all the QQ.

 

[Fjord]

Colussi just get sniped by marauders or marines using stim

Yeah good luck sniping a collosus with marines, I think using stim would often make it even more bloody.

 

[Pandaman]

Yeah good luck sniping a collosus with marines, I think using stim would often make it even more bloody.

?
pull back from cliff, ai clicks in to follow, stim, run snipe.

i see it often and i dont play protoss or terran!

 

[clav]

No one's ever really OP. I mean, I think I'm between bronze and silver right now, only just started climbing but climbing steadily, but the discussion on the battle.net fora is all about HOW DO I STOP THESE MMM BALLS?

To be honest, once the number of the marines, marauders and medivecs becomes a reasonable size, the only thing you can caunter it with is either a colussus or a high templar. High Templars take ages to build and require quite a lot of micro. Colussi can be rushed to and are quite good, but just get sniped by marauders or marines using stim. Not to mention the EMP's by the ghosts, only I've only seen the better players handle those types of combos.

Protoss OP? No.

Econ harass and DTs will give you a big helping hand in addition to HTs. However, as Day 9 says, work with what your build transitions to a better army, so if you went robo first, then definitely pump out the colossus because it'll be a ton of money and time to spend on the twilight council and then whatever templar building you wish. Some good force field placement + colossus absolutely kills the MMM ball.

Most terrans are greedy and don't want to spend cc magic on scans because they're all about MULE MULE MULE LOLOLOLOL. The only thing low-level players build are marines, marauders, and medivacs. Ravens would require a tech lab switch. Most people end up building more marines than marauders (about 2x-3x).

 

[Yoshichan]

me and my friends can't log in on SC2.. it crashes in the beginning... what's going on? I blame Cataclysm

 

[cubicle47b]

I think the supply depot change before barracks is stupid and probably won't go live but I'm loving the Terran tears. And the Protoss crying that they can't fast expand with a 1 cannon defense behind the gateway wall if the Zerg goes Roaches with a range of 4 (haha, seriously).

 

[pieatorium]

The depot change is propbably as much to do with the early proxy rax marine/maruader pushes we saw a few times during GSL as it has to do with reapers.
Edit: the roach range will be a big help vs cliff riding tanks I believe. Speed Roaches were already pretty good vs mech and and gateway/colossus heavy but sentry light toss (stalkers "counter" roaches but not on anywhere near the levels that maruaders do)

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Balance changes to achieve desired win ratios is fucking retard.

That's like thinking it's okay for one side of the basketball court to have a shorter three-point shot.

When a race is equally superior or inferior on just about every skill level, it's reasonable to be concerned with the race's balance rather than the impact of player skill.

 

[ZealousD]

The reason PvT is so unbalanced in the lower levels is two fold.

1.) Void Rays. People let stuff get massed up in the lower leagues, and mass void rays kill pretty much anything.
2.) Protoss are easier to macro. When players have low APM, having fewer but stronger units really help.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

Chronoboost is an easier mechanic to use than MULE/Scan. MULE/Scan is both a macro and an intel ability, which is split up in Protoss between Chrono and Observer (which is easier to use than Scan, especially at low levels where detection poorly utilized). Failing to do one instead of the other at a crucial moment can be disastrous, as Terran intel sucks until they get flying units. Lower level players often will just spam one instead of trying to make an informed decision.

In addition, queuing is more encouraged on the Terran side than the Protoss side thanks to Warp Gates. Low level Terran players will piss away resources making 3 Marauders at once which is patently impossible for Protoss players using Warp Gates, which also has a handy readiness indicator and built-in hotkey. Remember that hotkeying is also more rare the lower you go.

I think you're getting too into balance and not just general macro mechanics. Basically, both races come down to: hit 5 (or whatever your nexus hotkey is), E every few seconds or 5, S every few seconds.

You can make similar arguments for toss or terran as to whether you want to sacrifice econ for faster unit or research production (or sacrifice scouting for a mineral boost) based on the use of your unique macro mechanic. Arguing about the presence of an observer is an adventure into theory craft. Ya, I can have an observer early, but I'm making a strategic decision to get it and constraining the entire structure of my build (2 gate robo instead of 4 gate or early stargate or whatever). Whereas terran can always scan at the expense of a mule--the mineral and gas + time commitment of going robo -> observer is pretty inarguably more intense than popping off a scan. But, as I said, that's all theory craft.

I think the bottom line is that terran and toss are very similar in terms of macro mechanics--arguing the details of warp gates and chrono boost vs mules and tech switching is more granular than the general truth that Zerg requires actual reconnaissance and game time decision making; rather than just watching to make sure your nexus or CC is constantly making a single, non-queued probe/scv and that you are using your macro mechanic often. If you miss a larvae cycle on your queen, you're way behind. If you don't drone enough, you're way behind. If you drone when you should be making units, you're just dead.

 

[greepoman]

I think the win % can be a bit misleading for zerg because the race is played so much less. I would say that there are less bad people playing zerg. I know a couple people who got frustrated easily and switched races.

So even though the win %'s are not to far off 50%, it could just be the fact that a skilled Zerg player is just playing a higher number of less skilled players but still losing more than 50% to equal skilled players.

Not to mention the fact that fewer Zerg players means other players have less practice vs Zerg so that gives them an inherent advantage but does not mean that it is "balanced". This is hinted at when Fruitdealer said he has a low win % against the people he practices with. Since they practice against him they're much more prepared than his opponents at GSL were.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I think the win % can be a bit misleading for zerg because the race is played so much less. I would say that there are less bad people playing zerg. I know a couple people who got frustrated easily and switched races.

So even though the win %'s are not to far off 50%, it could just be the fact that a skilled Zerg player is just playing a higher number of less skilled players but still losing more than 50% to equal skilled players.

Not to mention the fact that fewer Zerg players means other players have less practice vs Zerg so that gives them an inherent advantage but does not mean that it is "balanced". This is hinted at when Fruitdealer said he has a low win % against the people he practices with. Since they practice against him they're much more prepared than his opponents at GSL were.

All of this seems to be taken into account considering how good zerg looks in the numbers, but all the changes are buffs to them anyway. They have stats on everything.

 

[Pandaman]

I think the win % can be a bit misleading for zerg because the race is played so much less. I would say that there are less bad people playing zerg. I know a couple people who got frustrated easily and switched races.

there is some truth to this in that zergs highest relative playerbase numbers start in diamond and goes down to bronze.

compare to protoss's highest being silver and terrans highest being bronze.

All of this seems to be taken into account considering how good zerg looks in the numbers, but all the changes are buffs to them anyway. They have stats on everything.

yea, those magic numbers 'adjusted according to skill'. :lol

 

[Meeru]

lost in the ma finals i let gaf down lol

 

[Wedge7]

lol

 

[Scrow]

lost in the ma finals i let gaf down lol

failure will not be tolerated! you are banished from GAF!

 

[Pyke Presco]

Uggh, just got roflstomped by a bioball because my internet was lagging like a beast. Alt-tab out and sure enough, Steam decided right this instant it should auto-update like 6 different games. My high-templar were so far behind the curve it wasnt even funny. It was like "Oh, there's an army at our doorstep. I see it...I see it....I see it....okay, now we'll storm. Oh, you clicked that 8 seconds ago and they're not there anymore? Our bad, maybe next time chump..."

Curse you Steam! I had that game!