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[Boken]

Right now, all my zerg play is against the very easy AI, but damn, it feels like you're doing a lot at once. Maybe I just got too used to be chronoboosting, making probes and pylons and don't feel it as tough as injecting larva/creep.
And I do find myself skyrocketing in money pretty quickly, but ahn, very easy AI got roaches faster than me. :lol

Tis true, zerg has so much more going on macro wise. *head explodes*

 

[FoxSpirit]

Right now, all my zerg play is against the very easy AI, but damn, it feels like you're doing a lot at once. Maybe I just got too used to be chronoboosting, making probes and pylons and don't feel it as tough as injecting larva/creep.
And I do find myself skyrocketing in money pretty quickly, but ahn, very easy AI got roaches faster than me. :lol

Wait, WHAT? We are talking about the very easy AI? Last time I played it, it was basically sitting around and shaking your hand :lol

 

[Morbid Angel]

The very easy AI has like 8-10 APM :lol

 

[Scrow]

i think the mechanics of spawn larvae should be changed.

maybe something like this... make the ability spawn the larvae instantly, change the number it spawns*, change energy cost*

* more or less depending on balance testing

 

[Haunted]

Hilarious Blizzard. Hilarious. You get rid of Kulas Ravine, the most impossible map for Zerg, only to replace it with Shakuras Plateau. Guess what this map has?

Also apparently if you spawn at the top position on Jungle Basin, you need 4 workers to saturate your gas. BLIZZARD!

Oh cool, new maps! I'm watching more casts than playing myself, so new maps are good. :lol

I hope someone posts pro matchups/diamond ladder matches on these maps in here when they're casted. I will when I see one.

 

[Raelson]

I don't know about Jungle Basin, but Shakuras Plateau seems good now when we know you can only spawn cross position.

 

[Tenks]

I don't know about Jungle Basin, but Shakuras Plateau seems good now when we know you can only spawn cross position.

I think you can spawn horizontally just not vertically as well

So if you're at spawn location '1' (top left)

then '2' (top right)
and '3' (cross)

are available.

 

[Raelson]

I think you can spawn horizontally just not vertically as well

So if you're at spawn location '1' (top left)

then '2' (top right)
and '3' (cross)

are available.

Oh, I see.
Doesn't make a big difference to me. Horizontally would've been ridiculous though.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Kulas Revine isn't challenging for Zerg if you play it right - ie breaking rocks to access high ground (eliminating tank drop problems) and go Muta.

 

[Aquavelvaman]

It seems like the answer to every Zerg matchup is to go muta

 

[Dreams-Visions]

It seems like the answer to every Zerg matchup is to go muta

if that's the answer, Zerg are in trouble.

 

[dimb]

Kulas Revine isn't challenging for Zerg if you play it right - ie breaking rocks to access high ground (eliminating tank drop problems) and go Muta.

I would say my muta harass is above average, and even I have trouble using mutas effectively on Kulas compared to other maps. The bases are tucked in the corner with no chance to hit the mineral line without flying over the entire enemy base, and there's no good escape route like you'll find on other maps. Protoss and Terran can usually wait for heavier units to expand so they can hold off and take the expansion past the rocks rather than the vulnerable one out the front door.

 

[Mardil]

Kulas Revine isn't challenging for Zerg if you play it right - ie breaking rocks to access high ground (eliminating tank drop problems) and go Muta.

Yes but zerglings take foreeeever to destroy rocks, you basically have to sneak an expo so it doesn't get harrased BAD.

 

[slidewinder]

Dustin Browder of Blizzard blogs about 1v1 balance:

Since the release of Wings of Liberty, the StarCraft II balance team has been diligently studying how the game is being played, playing it ourselves, and seeing how evenly the three races match up on the battlefield. While we regularly examine Battle.net player data and statistics from all regions, the information we're examining in this blog was pulled exclusively from the North American region for simplicity's sake.

Protoss are played 38.5% of the time.
Terran are played 38.0% of the time.
Zerg are played 23.5% of the time.

These are overall percentages, but they're mirrored in nearly the same exact separation through each of the leagues. This clearly shows that zerg are played less often than the other races. When we look at things like the Top 200 we like to have this data in-hand so we can ensure that it's proportionate to the amount of each race actually being played. We don't want to have a huge chunk of zerg players sitting somewhere further down unable to rise through the ranks.

Let's take a look at win percentages on a race-versus-race basis. This is something else we look at to see how matchups are faring over many games. These numbers take individual player skill into account, which helps to avoid the 50% win/loss percentage effect that the matchmaking system can impart on straight win/loss ratios.

Win % in Diamond (accounting for player skill)
49.6% win rate for Protoss when fighting Terran.
52.8% win rate for Protoss when fighting Zerg.
49.6% win rate for Terran when fighting Zerg.

Win % in Platinum (accounting for player skill)
56.3% win rate for Protoss when fighting Terran.
47.3% win rate for Protoss when fighting Zerg.
44.5% win for Terran when fighting Zerg.

Win % in Gold (accounting for player skill)
61.0% win rate for Protoss when fighting Terran.
61.1% win rate for Protoss when fighting Zerg.
49.5% win rate for Terran when fighting Zerg.

Win % in Silver (accounting for player skill)
63.6% win rate for Protoss when fighting Terran.
50.7% win rate for Protoss when fighting Zerg.
51.6% win rate for Terran when fighting Zerg.

Win % in Bronze (accounting for player skill)
59.0% win rate for Protoss when fighting Terran.
55.1% win rate for Protoss when fighting Zerg.
45.4% win rate for Terran when fighting Zerg.

As you can see there are some issues with Protoss vs. Terran in many of the leagues. From our own play experience, as well as feedback from the community, this matches pretty closely with what we're already aware of. We're working on solutions. What we're also aware of is that while the numbers don't necessarily support the need for zerg changes across all leagues, the feedback from the community as well as our own play experience tells us that improvements are necessary to make zerg matchups feel and play better.

The balance changes in our next patch will primarily focus on improving the zerg.

Here are a few of the changes we currently have planned:

· We're increasing roach range. This will allow roaches to be more effective in large groups, giving the zerg more options in the mid to end game.

· Fungal Growth will now prevent Blink, which will give zerg a way to stop endlessly Blinking stalkers which can be very challenging to deal with in large numbers.

· The Barracks are going to require a Supply Depot, which will impact a lot of early terran reaper pushes.

· The reaper speed upgrade will require the Factory, which is meant to weaken a lot of the early terran reaper attacks that dominate so many matches, especially in team games.

· We're making a number of increases to the health of zerg buildings, which will make the very vulnerable zerg technology structures more resistant to raids. We don’t expect these hit point changes to have a super significant impact on the game, but the current numbers felt way too low.

We want our avid and talented StarCraft II players to know that we're here, we're listening, and that our intent is to continue making careful and measured approaches to balance based on community and fansite feedback, our numbers and data, watching pro players and tournaments, and our own time on Battle.net playing the game alongside you.

 

[LakeEarth]

Roach range increase is great, but the increase plus the reaper speed upgrade nerf is gonna make reapers almost completely useless.

 

[Won]

Like that Fungal change.

Reapers will go back to not used at all. Just redo the unit already!

Barracks requiring a depot sounds a bit weird.

Roach range....we will see.

 

[syllogism]

They are still cheap scouts and frankly even high level players don't currently utilize them properly except for early harass. Reapers were likely nerfed due to their prevalence in 2v2+

e: oh that was even mentioned on the blog

 

[V_Arnold]

Roach range increase is great, but the increase plus the reaper speed upgrade nerf is gonna make reapers almost completely useless.

Speed reapers in large numbers were basically the ONLY type of army which could without a single loss, kill a bad zerg/protoss army composition. This type of additional requirement (150/100 in the form of a "you will use it anyway" factory) will only make sure you ARE investing in the rush, not just go for the mass and face no penalities if you fail with that.

 

[MrCompletely]

· The Barracks are going to require a Supply Depot, which will impact a lot of early terran reaper pushes.

wut. this is bullshit

 

[V_Arnold]

The pest part of the planned upgrade is roach speed buff. They needed it. You could basically have 60-80 of them and only the first 8-16 Roach could shot in tighter chokes, not to mention a regular Metalopolis fighting place, where the problem still persisted. With this upgrade, Roach second and maybe 3rd lines will also present a threat.

wut. this is bullshit

How come? You will not be able to make a barrack first build, that delays the start of the tech lab, and that delays the start of the first reaper in the making.

 

[Won]

Oh and nerf Protoss!

 

[Zzoram]

wut. this is bullshit

Not really. Gateways require pylons.

 

[Boken]

· The Barracks are going to require a Supply Depot, which will impact a lot of early terran reaper pushes.

I suppose this is similar to how gateways pretty much require a pylon to be built... but it's a very strange change.

Reaper speed requiring factory just means that speedlings are now all you need for reapers! yay! These two changes pretty much neuter early reapers (which means you'll just never see them)

Roach change is nice I guess. They're still a rather poor late game unit... (assuming the range is now 4 or something).

Kinda feels too good to be true haha.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

Whoa. Those changes sound bananas. I like them.
It's not like Toss can make a gateway without a pylon anyway.

 

[slidewinder]

What makes Protoss so dominant over Terran at lower levels? I'm a baddie myself, and I feel like Terran is extremely accommodating of my lack of skill. Early game multi-gateway pressure is easier for people to execute than MM pushes? Colossuses are too effective at low levels?

 

[Yoshichan]

WATWATWATWAAATWAT

 

[Raelson]

Great changes.
I've always wondered why fungal didn't stop blink. Just seems logical

 

[HolyCheck]

Not really. Gateways require pylons.

Yes, to produce units.

Not to build which I assume this is..

 

[syllogism]

Super early probes harassing the scv building the first depot could be deadly. I suppose they can just build it somewhere out of sight instead of ramp.

 

[V_Arnold]

Super early probes harassing the scv building the first depot could be deadly. I suppose they can just build it somewhere out of sight instead of ramp.

Luckily you have your own workers too, not to mention SCV's repair.

 

[syllogism]

Luckily you have your own workers too, not to mention SCV's repair.

Yes. I'm a toss and don't particularly like the change, mostly due to it reducing diversity.

 

[Sblargh]

No, you need a pylon to put a gateway, because without the pylon... energy radius (?) ... you can only build another pylon or a Nexus.

And changes are looking good, I almost never see reapers anymore, now they might as well take them from the game completely (won't be missed).

And please don't nerf Protoss ó.ò
Protoss is the balanced race, zerg is too weak, terran is too strong, Protoss is just alright.

 

[IceMarker]

All the changes sound cool except the rax one.

 

[HolyCheck]

No, you need a pylon to put a gateway, because without the pylon... energy radius (?) ... you can only build another pylon or a Nexus.

And changes are looking good, I almost never see reapers anymore, now they might as well take them from the game completely (won't be missed).

And please don't nerf Protoss ó.ò
Protoss is the balanced race, zerg is too weak, terran is too strong, Protoss is just alright.

Ah cool! I'm only bronze so was pretty sure i'd be wrong

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

What makes Protoss so dominant over Terran at lower levels? I'm a baddie myself, and I feel like Terran is extremely accommodating of my lack of skill. Early game multi-gateway pressure is easier for people to execute than MM pushes? Colossuses are too effective at low levels?

I'm guessing 4-warpgate. It's a damn effective strategy that does well against everything and makes a pretty balanced army.

 

[ultron87]

Now just add Concussive Shells to the "Factory required" upgrade list.

 

[clav]

Increase roach range?

Aw. Now I won't be able to see those see-saw micro moments for Zerg in Pro games any more.

 

[FoxSpirit]

Ah cool! I have never played Protoss so was pretty sure i'd be wrong

Corrected that for you. In a team game I built carriers. What do you mean, the auto-building interceptors isn't on?? Isn't it by default? Nope. >.<

 

[Haunted]

oh snap! Been calling Roach range before. 3 is just ridiculous.



Actually, the most imba matchup seems to be Protoss vs Terran (in favour of Toss) right now, so it's a bit strange that they're concentrating on buffing Zerg and nerfing Terran only atm. Probably want to get that total percentage of people playing Zerg up at first.

 

[Scrow]

· We're increasing roach range. This will allow roaches to be more effective in large groups, giving the zerg more options in the mid to end game.

sounds good to me. this was brought up earlier in the thread as something that should be changed. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23667919&postcount=173

· The Barracks are going to require a Supply Depot, which will impact a lot of early terran reaper pushes.

uhh... this feels a bit ham fisted. it also makes no logical sense in terms of the "rules" of the universe. pylon for gateway makes sense because it needs power.... supply depot for a barracks.... why? why unnecessarily limit a player's build options? hope this change doesn't make the cut

Yes, to produce units.

Not to build which I assume this is..

no, to build also. you can't build a gateway without a power field

· The reaper speed upgrade will require the Factory, which is meant to weaken a lot of the early terran reaper attacks that dominate so many matches, especially in team games.

once again, this makes no sense and seems ham fisted.

· We're making a number of increases to the health of zerg buildings, which will make the very vulnerable zerg technology structures more resistant to raids. We don’t expect these hit point changes to have a super significant impact on the game, but the current numbers felt way too low.

i really don't know what this is meant to achieve...

Great changes.
I've always wondered why fungal didn't stop blink. Just seems logical

really? seems illogical to me. blink is a teleport, not movement. i thought the idea of fungal growth was that the units were gooped in slime and so they couldn't physically move. because blink is an instananeous teleport i don't see why fungal growth should effect it.

balance wise it might be necessary though, but it certainly doesn't make any logical sense to me.

overall i don't like the changes, except for increased roach range. hope they don't go too over the top though... 4-5 should be sufficient.

 

[dimb]

Roach range is huge. Should be so much more fun to go roach heavy, or even integrate them into a build with hydras.

 

[clav]

People are going to rage about barracks.

That wasn't a requirement in Starcraft 1.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

Now just add Concussive Shells to the "Factory required" upgrade list.

That's a bit much...

 

[PhoenixDark]

· The Barracks are going to require a Supply Depot, which will impact a lot of early terran reaper pushes.

Seems excessive even to a terran hater such as myself. Will be interesting to dust off 5 Roach rushes on this.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

Seems excessive even to a terran hater such as myself. Will be interesting to dust off 5 Roach rushes on this.

I really don't see this as being true. If you're going rax before depot, you've been planning that well before scouting 5rr. I think 10 depot, 12 rax is standard enough that this shouldn't really be a problem... but I could be absolutely wrong.

 

[Deadman]

Most of them seem kinda fair, maybe a bit harsh to double nerf reapers, the supply depot change does enough to get rid of the super cheese i think.

The lower league stats for PvT are interesting, i imagine entirely because of 4 warpgate being so awesome. Shame that nerfs will come that affect all skill levels though.

Looks like the roach changes will make immortals way more popular instead of collossus in pvz.

 

[watervengeance]

Terran tears :lol

 

[FoxSpirit]

sounds good to me. this was brought up earlier in the thread as something that should be changed. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23667919&postcount=173

i really don't know what this is meant to achieve...

I thought you play Zerg? Basically, a 4 marauder drop or a few banshess can snipe a tech building a the blink of an eye. And something like a spire/greater spire takes ages to build.
So applaud that.

The reaper change seems weird but it's probably because of team issues since they now were fine 1v1.

Roach Range: Oh yeah, let's see how they afre now. Not that it will make Marauders any less deadly.

Seems excessive even to a terran hater such as myself. Will be interesting to dust off 5 Roach rushes on this.

A 5RR is a response to tech, you fend this off with a completely standard opening.

 

[vicissitudes]

If you're going to go for eco against what you know is something that isn't aggression, you should go either 15 or 16 hatch/pool and then the other. The 15 hatch 14 pool was what idra tried to make standard during the beta, ends up being too weak to a lot of early aggression but is fantastic when you see a protoss go forge fast expand or something. I played it almost exclusively during the beta, trying to find a way to get that second hatch up quickly in all scenarios, as all of the beta tournament players can attest to, but I lost to things like hellions and reapers because of it.

16hatch/15pool is way too late, they'll get zerglings/marines/zealots/reapers to your base before your pool is done. If you do 14-hatch/14-pool they finish at the exact same time and in most maps by the time their first marine/zealot/lings get to your base (assuming they build standard and send them right away) your lings/spines will pop right then and there. For reapers, if they send one your queen can deal with it. If they send 2 you'll have spines up by then. Same with hellions.

14gas/14pool versus 14pool/13gas is interesting, I prefer the latter for a quicker pool against early, early rushes (8pool anyone?), and getting speed finished when I have 15 zerglings as opposed to 10 really isn't a big deal to me. But like I said, depending on what type of player you are, the build order will vary.

Here are a few of the changes we currently have planned:

Roach range: awesome change, probably the one everyone will welcome. I still wish they would nerf the roach a bit and reduce the supply back to 1 or even 1.5 but this is a good start.

Fungal growth: didn't know they don't prevent blink, now they do, whatever.

Barracks/reaper speed: kinda weird but not bad changes, although I'm surprised the reaper is such a problem as to require so many nerfs to it.

Zerg building health: the biggest change would be increasing hatchery health, as they are a little too easy to be sniped by marauders now. 2nd biggest change would be increasing spire health, good if you're Zerg against Terran/Protoss, bad if it's ZvZ and you're trying to take it out via harass (which has won me a few games).

 

[ultron87]

That's a bit much...

:lol

Yeah, I know. But maybe if I put that out into the ether someone at Blizzard will pick it up and change something.