• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

//: StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty |OT2| GL HF GG

Status
Not open for further replies.

ultron87

Member
Pandaman said:
it occurred to me yesterday in the tsl, the idea of the mass sentry is so that you can secure the wide natural against allins, ut on maps with safe rear expansions [with 1 less gyser in crevasses case], it seems to me toss could afford to cut sentries since it has a much smaller area to secure.

>_>

but i still see 'lol i maek 8 sentry'.

Well haven't we seen that sentries can be just as useful on offense as they are at preventing you from dying?

Obviously with the one less gas than on a normal 2-base cutting a few sentries would be a good way to tech at a rate you're used to with 3/4 the normal amount of gas.

Personally I'm trying to make more sentries in general in my games these days because forcefield use is one of my weaknesses so I want to practice using them better.
 

Sethos

Banned
I'm not here to start a full blown discussion, insult the game head-on or be a troll but I decided to buy the game today after watching a lot of "When Cheese Fails" - Made the game look very appealing. Now, I'm a Company of Heroes and Men of War kind-of-guy, RTS games that employ realism / authenticity to some extend and also blurs the Rock / Paper / Scissor system a bit, to make the game more dynamic.

Now, I know I wouldn't be getting realism or authenticity with Starcraft II but my god - This game is so clear cut when it comes to the rock / paper / scissor system, it's basically the holy grail of the game and refuses to steer clear of it. Now, I'm fully aware that's what makes the game popular and a perfect competitive game, even as a sport but to enjoy the game and not the rush you get from the competition, it stinks.

The game just feels too ... basic probably isn't the right word but the variation is all in the general tactic you employ, not in the gameplay, units and combat itself. Perhaps I was just expecting too much ... There's a reason why I didn't buy the game until now.

I'm probably one alone on this but I had to get it off my chest :p
 

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
give us some examples of rock/paper/scissors gameplay.

i mean, we cant really tell where your coming from without it.

it could be something simple like zergling>marine>speedling>stim marine>baneling where it looks obvious but the issue is one of proper unit control.
 

Spl1nter

Member
Sethos said:
The game just feels too ... basic probably isn't the right word but the variation is all in the general tactic you employ, not in the gameplay, units and combat itself. Perhaps I was just expecting too much ... There's a reason why I didn't buy the game until now.

If you mean variation in gameplay as in randomness isnt that a good thing. I think you need to be more specific in what you find basic. COH is based on rock paper scissors as well. From the sounds of it you find the game to be to fast for you or to much to handle. You could try playing team games. That may suite your interests a lot better.
 

Boken

Banned
You're asking too much of him to provide you examples since it doesnt seem as if he's played SCII much (which is also why his analysis of the game is lacks weight and evidence).

Sure there are 'hard' counters in the game such as:

helion > speedlings. But in small numbers and with proper control, speedlings do ok.

sure, banelings > marines. But we've seen that with good micro banelings become very average against marines.

sure, immortals >>> roaches. But immortals come out of robo facilities slowly while I can get 10 roaches out at the same time and focus fire it.

sure, phoenix > mutalisk. But this is micro intensive.

Anyway, if you visualise the game as general level relationships between only one unit and another, perhaps you might see that theres a 'scissors/paper/rock gameplay'. However, the game doesnt limit you to one unit which clouds your contention a lot more.

I mean, speedlings > marines and speedlings > tanks right? So why are terran contains so to hard to bust?

Anyway, I think you should probably try the game at a higher level before you try to visualise for yourself what the multiplayer game is really like in a 'gameplay, units and combat' perspective.

/SCII defence force
 

Sethos

Banned
Spl1nter said:
If you mean variation in gameplay as in randomness isnt that a good thing. I think you need to be more specific in what you find basic. COH is based on rock paper scissors as well. From the sounds of it you find the game to be to fast for you.

Exactly, it's based on, like every RTS but from there it just explodes into a million combinations when it comes to shell ricochet, cover, critical hits, multiple units being strong versus each other, having to turn units the right way before combat, the movement of turrets, the placement of each individual unit etc. I mean these are all things many players would find frustrating, as pure luck and randomness can dictate the game but that's combat for me, the gives each and every battle a unique feel to it.

Starcraft on the other hand, you can remove many of the things I mentioned as every shell / bullet / beam / whatever always hits, you don't have to worry so much about direction placement, don't have to worry about critical hits, penetration values or even shells bouncing off, don't have to worry about putting infantry / light units behind every form of cover etc. etc.

It's a game that is cut down to the bone to make it work in a competitive sports environment and it just feels like a beefed up chess game rather than an elaborate computer game. So the Rock, paper and scissor system just shines that much more when it comes to damage penalties and multipliers, which units are strong against which etc.

I'm just here trying to discuss why I don't enjoy the game, I'm not trying to slate the game for it because it obviously works and it's one of the most popular RTS games out there - I could easily see why people love it but I just had to vent some minor frustration from dropping money on it and getting disappointed.

Although, why would I find the game too much to handle when it's cut down way below my normal gaming threshold? I'd suggest people to look up Men of War and see how much you need to keep track of there and the kind of reaction you need.

=)
 

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
Boken said:
You're asking too much of him to provide you examples since it doesnt seem as if he's played SCII much
well, thats my point.

most of the problems alot of people have with hardcounters are a result of inexperience. thats why everybody below gold hates marauders but nobody above gold is all that bothered by them.

every shell / bullet / beam / whatever always hits
pretty sure this is only true for marines, ghosts, tanks, sentries and infested terrans.

for example, you can dodge emp's and anti caster spells with warpprism micro just as people would micro reavers in brood war. you can dodge collosi shots by canceling the shot before the full sweep. blink can get you away from any missile attack. units with friendly AOE damage have to be carefully managed so they dont kill your own stuff, as a zerg i have to watch how my units move into range of aoe units so my banelings dont take the first shots.
hunter seaker missiles can be outright dodged or driven back into the terran lines.
the point defense drone neutralizes every missile shot period.

unit positioning is also a big deal for nonterran players.
*pokes splinter*
 

Spl1nter

Member
Pandaman said:
well, thats my point.

most of the problems alot of people have with hardcounters are a result of inexperience. thats why everybody below gold hates marauders but nobody above gold is all that bothered by them.

whats the problem with marauders. Hopefully you aint talking about tvz. lol
 

Spl1nter

Member
Pandaman said:
maybe you should read it again.

I want to know why low level players find them imbalanced.

Oh Sethos arent you funny. Ill try to be nice and just say your post is completely incorrect and you clearly have no understanding of the gameplay in sc2.
 

Cheeto

Member
Sethos said:
Although, why would I find the game too much to handle when it's cut down way below my normal gaming threshold? I'd suggest people to look up Men of War and see how much you need to keep track of there and the kind of reaction you need.

=)
Probably because the games you're used to playing are more micro-oriented and don't have the same level of intense multitasking of macro mechanics that sc2 requires.
 

Won

Member
Sethos said:
Exactly, it's based on, like every RTS but from there it just explodes into a million combinations when it comes to shell ricochet, cover, critical hits, multiple units being strong versus each other, having to turn units the right way before combat, the movement of turrets, the placement of each individual unit etc. I mean these are all things many players would find frustrating, as pure luck and randomness can dictate the game but that's combat for me, the gives each and every battle a unique feel to it.

Starcraft on the other hand, you can remove many of the things I mentioned as every shell / bullet / beam / whatever always hits, you don't have to worry so much about direction placement, don't have to worry about critical hits, penetration values or even shells bouncing off, don't have to worry about putting infantry / light units behind every form of cover etc. etc.

It's a game that is cut down to the bone to make it work in a competitive sports environment and it just feels like a beefed up chess game rather than an elaborate computer game. So the Rock, paper and scissor system just shines that much more when it comes to damage penalties and multipliers, which units are strong against which etc.

I'm just here trying to discuss why I don't enjoy the game, I'm not trying to slate the game for it because it obviously works and it's one of the most popular RTS games out there - I could easily see why people love it but I just had to vent some minor frustration from dropping money on it and getting disappointed.

Although, why would I find the game too much to handle when it's cut down way below my normal gaming threshold? I'd suggest people to look up Men of War and see how much you need to keep track of there and the kind of reaction you need.

=)

Sounds like you are not even interested in giving SC2 a chance and dive into its game mechanics.
I get the feeling that you haven't really dived into CoH mechanics either.....
 

Sethos

Banned
Won said:
I get the feeling that you haven't really dived into CoH mechanics either.....

Haha, what? I played that game on tournament level.

Cheeto said:
Probably because the games you're used to playing are more micro-oriented and don't have the same level of intense multitasking of macro mechanics that sc2 requires.

Hmmm, yeah could very well be - I'll definitely give the game another chance, I just got frustrated by my initial impressions. Thanks for the sober response :)
 

Ikuu

Had his dog run over by Blizzard's CEO
NASL invites for today: Rainbow, Ensnare, Squirtle, Ret, Zenio

Pretty much confirms that the groups weren't random at all. Five spots left and still no Morrow, DeMuslim, Boxer, Nada, MC, July or Bomber. So unless some of the Code S people can't make it due to scheduling we're going to have some very good players not being invited. Possible that Demuslim is still injured as well.
 

Won

Member
Sethos said:
Haha, what? I played that game on tournament level.

Sorry man, it's just that I think CoH revolves a lot more around hardcounters than most RTS out there, especially Starcraft 2. That's what makes CoH so great. Its mechanics require a completely different approach to combat.
 
Sethos said:
Starcraft on the other hand, you can remove many of the things I mentioned as every shell / bullet / beam / whatever always hits, you don't have to worry so much about direction placement, don't have to worry about critical hits, penetration values or even shells bouncing off, don't have to worry about putting infantry / light units behind every form of cover etc. etc.
Sounds like you're just looking for a different style of RTS. Like Dawn of War 2, perhaps?
 

Procarbine

Forever Platinum
Sethos,

I think the big thing your missing is that starcraft is about so much more than battles. The thing that separates players in this game is the ability to both micro manage your army and macro manage your economy at the same time. Watching "When cheese fails" only gives you a look into one small aspect of starcraft, most games are decided with macro and critical attack timing.

No, sc2 doesn't have cover, no it doesn't have things you need to point in certain directions, but to say that positioning doesn't matter because there aren't built in factors just says to us that you haven't played enough to understand how the game works. Unit positioning is absolutely critical for no other reason than fighting your opponent in the most efficient way possible. And yes, there is no randomness in the game because it is intended to be competitive. Playing a game for a 6 digit prize when something can be decided off of RNG would be stupid and immensely frustrating.
 

HolyCheck

I want a tag give me a tag
omg o_O

Pandaman 954
Corran Horn 638
HolyCheck 455
mescalineeyes 413
Spl1nter 337
Deadman 319
MrMister 305
Hazaro 299
Meeru 280

I had no idea I posted in here that much. holyshit.
 

zlatko

Banned
Procarbine said:
Sethos,

I think the big thing your missing is that starcraft is about so much more than battles. The thing that separates players in this game is the ability to both micro manage your army and macro manage your economy at the same time. Watching "When cheese fails" only gives you a look into one small aspect of starcraft, most games are decided with macro and critical attack timing.

No, sc2 doesn't have cover, no it doesn't have things you need to point in certain directions, but to say that positioning doesn't matter because there aren't built in factors just says to us that you haven't played enough to understand how the game works. Unit positioning is absolutely critical for no other reason than fighting your opponent in the most efficient way possible. And yes, there is no randomness in the game because it is intended to be competitive. Playing a game for a 6 digit prize when something can be decided off of RNG would be stupid and immensely frustrating.

All good points. I think Sethos should try to watch the game at a pro level and not at a cheese fails level. We could recommend him some replays to check out of pros that show case just how deep the game gets.

One of the reasons I respect SC2 so much is that there is no randomness factor. It's one of the things I hate the most about other multiplayer games in general. When I lose I want it to be my fault and that alone, because then I can fix that/improve it to prevent it in the future. I also think this is one of the most deep and thought based games ever...maybe not THE deepest, but it has to be in the top 5 ever.

The positioning thing mentioned is weird, because almost every pro gamer encounter in SC2 boils down to unit control and placement. If all your hydras are out in front of your roaches against a Collasi you are in trouble. Positioning hellions against workers when they get blue flame is a crucial thing if you want to make your harassment worth something. Muta control is another super important unit where if you don't micro them well it's almost a waste to get them in the first place. You can use them to harass your opponent and keep them at bay while you tech up, expand, etc.

It's always awesome to see someone who is so outnumbered on units against a serious push, but then they come out on top thanks to micro like in the case of blink stalkers, while at the same time not messing up their macro back at home, so that when this intense encounter ends you are poised for the next part of the game.

<3 Starcraft 2. Sethos you should pick Zerg, and play 500 games on ladder 1v1. :D
 

scogoth

Member
HolyCheck said:
omg o_O

Pandaman 954
Corran Horn 638
HolyCheck 455
mescalineeyes 413
Spl1nter 337
Deadman 319
MrMister 305
Hazaro 299
Meeru 280

I had no idea I posted in here that much. holyshit.

Blink Blink Blink Blink


+1 Post Count
 

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
HolyCheck said:
omg o_O

Pandaman 954
Corran Horn 638
HolyCheck 455
mescalineeyes 413
Spl1nter 337
Deadman 319
MrMister 305
Hazaro 299
Meeru 280

I had no idea I posted in here that much. holyshit.
bow before your moemoe pony conquerors.
 

HolyCheck

I want a tag give me a tag
Cheeto said:
moe this and moe that... on my way to Panda's post count
moe moe?
littlemoesyzlak7ul-1.jpg
 

zlatko

Banned
I just died of laughter when Huk freaked at Jinro for spitting larvae onto one of his hatcheries throwing of his queen energy/timings. LMAO!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom