^^Corran :X While a couple people have told me they're enjoying this thread atm, I'm sure a lot more people aren't too interested in this whole debate, so please feel free to skip over this :X
So to Panda, while I think you've misinterpreted a lot of my arguments or taken them out of the context of early game/scouting, you at least didn't pick out one line, so here goes.
Thats what I'm getting at. All races don't get complete/good scouting but make decisions based on what they do AND don't see.
If your opponent is doing a 4gate after expansion and after robo and/or hallucination, thats pretty much the weakest possible timing. Specifically what you are responding to is when protoss have their nexus completed and scouting tech up, not some nexus cancel.
Where did I mention 2-base vs. 2-base? I said zerg is being greedy. Ie. You have spent money in static defense and zerg is playing passive drone-heavy style. Hes taken a quick third for instance. Those cannons are fairly useless unless the zerg wants to attack into you.
And this is merely an example of how limited information works both ways in but one matchup.
Also the reason zergs don't win macro games on terran and protosses doorstep is because terrans and protoss don't let them play macro games in those positions through constant pressure. And the 'where do I take my third' dilemma.
So I'm left asking the question, where does zerg get ahead if not in a macro game where they have enough information to not worry about committing unnecessarily? Because zergs do get ahead. Idra would have me believe that its purely off the back of terran and protoss mistakes. You have said that zergs advantage is not economy/macro game, but clearly you don't think zerg has great offensive potential. Where then?
This is to bring it all back, the point of contention most people have with Idras statements. Zerg will be behind or even no matter what mentality.
I feel like you guys would be a lot less heated if we were at least arguing the same stuff. At least I don't think it would be as contentious. And I'll quote myself here:
"What should be argued is what information does zerg get, and what can and should zergs do to 'buy' safety in terms of building units and/or teching before they see the enemies composition. SHOULD zergs be forced to blindly do anything? DOES zerg get behind if they have idle units early? IF so how far?"
^Thats the more interesting argument based on Idras statements made on SOTG.
So to Panda, while I think you've misinterpreted a lot of my arguments or taken them out of the context of early game/scouting, you at least didn't pick out one line, so here goes.
Robo? Even Idra (maybe it was Sheth actually) said that he thought robo was the least threatening protoss tech path, IIRC. Also more of a balance whine that relevant to this discussion.Pandaman said:
What upgrades are you forsaking for overlord speed? Why and for how long does zerg stay low-gas/low-tech? Is this before or after robo timings? This whole discussion is rooted in the early-mid game.Pandaman said:
My obs gets there as your spire completes. I went robo. Woe is me. Or I saw the signs earlier. Only lings. Spines. I didn't have complete information at all. But I guessed at muta and went stargate.Pandaman said:
Thats what I'm getting at. All races don't get complete/good scouting but make decisions based on what they do AND don't see.
?Pandaman said:
If your opponent is doing a 4gate after expansion and after robo and/or hallucination, thats pretty much the weakest possible timing. Specifically what you are responding to is when protoss have their nexus completed and scouting tech up, not some nexus cancel.
Talking post-expansion roach/speedling all-ins here, what does that early scouting information tell me about what the zerg is going to do 6 minutes later?Pandaman said:
You're (again) presuming something I haven't said.Pandaman said:
Where did I mention 2-base vs. 2-base? I said zerg is being greedy. Ie. You have spent money in static defense and zerg is playing passive drone-heavy style. Hes taken a quick third for instance. Those cannons are fairly useless unless the zerg wants to attack into you.
And this is merely an example of how limited information works both ways in but one matchup.
SC2 is a game of limited information. You cannot buy all information at all times. It doesn't mean you don't have enough information to make sound decisions. It means you don't have enough information to make perfect decisions.Pandaman said:
Most of your examples are out of the scope of the period we are talking about. And of course you take your cues throughout the game as to what you're next move should be.Pandaman said:
Can't compete in a macro game where zergs have enough information to get far ahead in the early game specifically. Absolutely can and do compete in current games where zergs have to be somewhat honest by default because they don't have enough information to otherwise not be.Pandaman said:
Also the reason zergs don't win macro games on terran and protosses doorstep is because terrans and protoss don't let them play macro games in those positions through constant pressure. And the 'where do I take my third' dilemma.
So I'm left asking the question, where does zerg get ahead if not in a macro game where they have enough information to not worry about committing unnecessarily? Because zergs do get ahead. Idra would have me believe that its purely off the back of terran and protoss mistakes. You have said that zergs advantage is not economy/macro game, but clearly you don't think zerg has great offensive potential. Where then?
This is to bring it all back, the point of contention most people have with Idras statements. Zerg will be behind or even no matter what mentality.
I feel like you guys would be a lot less heated if we were at least arguing the same stuff. At least I don't think it would be as contentious. And I'll quote myself here:
"What should be argued is what information does zerg get, and what can and should zergs do to 'buy' safety in terms of building units and/or teching before they see the enemies composition. SHOULD zergs be forced to blindly do anything? DOES zerg get behind if they have idle units early? IF so how far?"
^Thats the more interesting argument based on Idras statements made on SOTG.
While I would applaud your move to the NA server masters community, be aware I was merely denigrating you based on the content of your post and don't actually dismiss people below masters, it was just convenient for the tone I wanted to convey to you specifically. Just saying so you don't expect to be taken more seriously without actually improving your arguments beyond simply misrepresenting other peoples.mescalineeyes said:
