• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

//: StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty |OT2| GL HF GG

Status
Not open for further replies.

Striek

Member
Its hard to take Idra seriously when EVERY scenario he came up with was zerg will be behind or even at best. Most other pro zergs admit that if zergs are left to drone for very long they'll be way ahead. But for Idra its if I have to make any defensive units early game I'm so far behind if they don't attack its barely worth playing.
No.

You're just not necessarily far ahead.

And of course it was hilarious when he got called out on his bias in BW as well.

For someone with sick macro and micro like Idra if there wasn't an element of uncertainty that stopped you been able to be super greedy and safe it would be very difficult for any macro plays by terran or toss with how ridiculous drone pumps in SC2 can be even very early in a game.
 
Tetsuo9 said:
It was just facts, zerg players are not winning tournaments. This was discussed in TL some month ago and I remember being quite shocked by this post by idra:

I wasn't too surprised seeing as idra will say what he wants and doesn't care if he catches crap for it-whether that's a good or bad thing i'll leave that you to decide
 

Yoshichan

And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Hahahahha Jinro and HUK fighting over how op marines with tanks are.

He just told Jinro to jump down from the building :lol

edit 2: And now he says terran is the easiest race EVARR!!!
 

Yoshichan

And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Jinro's just trolling now :lol
 
Striek said:
Its hard to take Idra seriously when EVERY scenario he came up with was zerg will be behind or even at best. Most other pro zergs admit that if zergs are left to drone for very long they'll be way ahead. But for Idra its if I have to make any defensive units early game I'm so far behind if they don't attack its barely worth playing.
No.

You're just not necessarily far ahead.

And of course it was hilarious when he got called out on his bias in BW as well.

For someone with sick macro and micro like Idra if there wasn't an element of uncertainty that stopped you been able to be super greedy and safe it would be very difficult for any macro plays by terran or toss with how ridiculous drone pumps in SC2 can be even very early in a game.

so provide a rebuttal for the argument he made regarding early game scouting as zerg. Are you supposed to just repeatedly send in overlords hoping marines/stalkers don't kill it before you might see what they're doing? I agree that idra makes a lot of wild claims but i'd like to see something done about this as zerg's aren't having much success worldwide. Sure idra won the IPL but I think almost everyone can agree that the NA skill level is not at the level of KR or even EU and zerg's are getting manhandled there.
 

Striek

Member
PandaPandaPanda said:
so provide a rebuttal for the argument he made regarding early game scouting as zerg. Are you supposed to just repeatedly send in overlords hoping marines/stalkers don't kill it before you might see what they're doing? I agree that idra makes a lot of wild claims but i'd like to see something done about this as zerg's aren't having much success worldwide. Sure idra won the IPL but I think almost everyone can agree that the NA skill level is not at the level of KR or even EU and zerg's are getting manhandled there.
Every race have these problems though. Protoss will only have basic early scouting information as to what zerg or terran are doing in their base(s) unless they rush for an observer which is risky in itself. Terran will only have basic scouting information as to what zerg or protoss is doing unless they sacrifice a mule and even then they might miss completely.

Zerg definitely was having problems, particularly in ZvP but balance changes with the metagame and zergs have learnt new and better ways to win in the matchup.

Theres no real proof that zergs are getting manhandled in EU. In the weekly cups and big tournaments they're doing fine (if slightly overshadowed by terran). In KR they're doing no worse than protoss in the current GSL and again Terran is still overrepresented at the top end.

As you see from tournament play:

(International)

(Korea)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=218558
Not so bad for zerg recently.
 
Striek said:
Every race have these problems though. Protoss will only have basic early scouting information as to what zerg or terran are doing in their base(s) unless they rush for an observer which is risky in itself. Terran will only have basic scouting information as to what zerg or protoss is doing unless they sacrifice a mule and even then they might miss completely.

Zerg definitely was having problems, particularly in ZvP but balance changes with the metagame and zergs have learnt new and better ways to win in the matchup.

Theres no real proof that zergs are getting manhandled in EU. In the weekly cups and big tournaments they're doing fine (if slightly overshadowed by terran). In KR they're doing no worse than protoss in the current GSL and again Terran is still overrepresented at the top end.

As you see from tournament play:

(International)

(Korea)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=218558
Not so bad for zerg recently.
This was discussed earlier in the thread, but the Korean chart just doesn't have enough data to be reliable with a single lossed game can skew the graph by up to 4%.

The chart does show things have gotten alot better for zerg, I guess that shows that the continued buffs to zerg are working but on all the charts it is only in the last month that zerg has approached 50% overall winrate (excluding the start of the korean chart which the Zerg winrate for that could be attributed almost completely by Fruitdealers GSL run).


Also not every race has the same problems, Toss can get an observer (vs terran or zerg) hallu/air unit (vs zerg) out to scout what the zerg is up to. Terran have Scan/Hellion/Reaper/air units. Depends on tech paths and builds but the other races have better ability to both scout and deny scouting than zerg.
 

Q8D3vil

Member
Theres no real proof that zergs are getting manhandled in EU. In the weekly cups and big tournaments they're doing fine (if slightly overshadowed by terran). In KR they're doing no worse than protoss in the current GSL and again Terran is still overrepresented at the top end.
a lot of good players that came from bw already play terran
mvp and nada come to mind.
most of protoss and zergs except july were b teamers ( including idra and mc).

if july showed us anything, its that zerg can keep up with terran even if they have the same amount of economy as long as the zerg know how to micro his units.
watch july vs nada in the previous gsl.

there is also this game between dimaga and incontrol that everyone who said zerg is weak should watch.

zerg's like dimaga, ret and morrow are doing very good in EU ( there is more top terran and protoss in eu so its harder for them).
 

Striek

Member
pieatorium said:
The chart does show things have gotten alot better for zerg, I guess that shows that the continued buffs to zerg are working but on all the charts it is only in the last month that zerg has approached 50% overall winrate (excluding the start of the korean chart which the Zerg winrate for that could be attributed almost completely by Fruitdealers GSL run).
What has happened in the last two months that has seen zerg start doing better, particularly against protoss?

Buff for infestors, nerf to HTs and *pro zergs completely changing the way they play ZvP*. Zergs could've been aggressive with early attacks and drops before any patch. Could've realised the banelings potential in the matchup. They could've built stronger late game compositions than pure roach/corruptor/broodlord. They simply needed time to discover it and they did. That alone is proof that players like Idra can cry imbalance before exploring all options.

And of course you have Idra saying that the new style is working just because protoss players are bad. Yeah ok. Zerg must still be weak. Always.

pieatorium said:
Also not every race has the same problems, Toss can get an observer (vs terran or zerg) hallu/air unit (vs zerg) out to scout what the zerg is up to. Terran have Scan/Hellion/Reaper/air units. Depends on tech paths and builds but the other races have better ability to both scout and deny scouting than zerg.
Zerg have the ability to get overlord speed at around the same time or not long after a protoss will get an observer or hallucinated phoenix in that matchup. Of course the protoss has already revealed his early game strategy because it will be post-expansion. We've seen a shit ton of games recently (GSL/NASL/EU cups) where zerg rolls the protoss nexus with a roach/ling attack simply because theres no way the protoss could know if its coming before committing to putting down cannons. Of course most pros do put down cannons. But its not very good if the zerg is being greedy. But guess what, SC2 is a game of _limited information_.

Zerg has map control in both matchups and can deny reapers with proper control and hellions/air units reveal what strategy they are going for at the same time they see what you are going for. Scans are hit and miss.

Not to mention theres only a limited number of possibilities in both matchups based on what your early drone scouts. Against protoss this is the 4wg, expand or something which is dealt with by spore crawlers (DTs/air). You can usually eliminate one or two of these by scouting the wall with your zergling. For Terran your scout will usually figure out their early game tech path and if not your zerglings will see enough.

Again Zerg would be ridiculous if they could drone up to wherever they're personally comfortable, sacrifice an overlord and be almost guarenteed to see exactly what they need to deal with (ie. full base scout before dying) then build units/tech/drones to precisely counter that. You can't do that so long as zerg has the ability to do massive drone pumps. The other races would be forced out of macro games.
 
Look, the real point is that if a Terran or Protoss player wants to obscure their opening build to a Zerg, they have a very easy time to do so (not to mention that a blue flame Hellion Drop is almost indistinguishable from Banshee play depending on the time to sac an overlord).

Be that through smart building placement or simply by killing the overlord beforehand, the fact is you can absolutely control the information the Zerg player can get out of his scouting.

Now if your argument is that "wah wah Zerg is QQing again, my race has an equally hard time scouting" consider this: how many different early game plays can you straight up die to (unless you are doing an all-in build like a 4 gate.) fact is, you don't need to know half as well as a Zerg player what your opponent t is up to.
Add to that the fact that you don't need to balance your unit production with your worker production and let's just say it becomes fairly hard to be reactive early game.
I know a ruse is a part of playing an RTS, but when one race can get fucked over so severely within 8 minutes of a game, I feel you have to realize that them having the unarguably worst scouting in the game can't be right.

Idra *has* an actual point here, but just like the boy who cried wolf his excessive complaining had made him in arguably a bit hard to take serious when he is actually right.
 
Striek, at this point you are literally talking out of your ass. I wish I wasn't on my phone right now so I could actually tell you how wrong you are but that's just a load of bullshit right there.

If I need to tech up to lair to scout you properly I have already lost the game.
 

Striek

Member
mescalineeyes said:
Striek, at this point you are literally talking out of your ass. I wish I wasn't on my phone right now so I could actually tell you how wrong you are but that's just a load of bullshit right there.

If I need to tech up to lair to scout you properly I have already lost the game.
I'm sorry let me take advice from a diamond zerg who thinks hes Idra. Yes, thats what I need to do here. You know best.

Oh wait.

You don't need to tech to lair to scout. You get information throughout the early game (drone scout) and with your map control/poking the ramp. Reading comprehension please. And no I have not said you get full information. My whole argument is that zerg DOESN'T get good scouting but NEITHER does protoss or terran.

You involve yourself in an argument that zerg essentially doesn't have an ability to scout before lair and you try to make the argument that if zerg doesn't have that ability they've already lost. Well geez please give me the secrets for a 100% winrate vs. zerg.

You're right in that protoss/terran don't need to know what zerg is doing as much. Different argument to the inability to scout.

What should be argued is what information does zerg get, and can and should zergs do to 'buy' safety in terms of building units and/or teching before they see the enemies composition. SHOULD zergs be forced to blindly do anything? DOES zerg get behind if they have idle units early? IF so how far?

This is stuff that Idra did not make any strong arguments for.

Edit: Bolded for you the important bit.
 

twofold

Member
Is ZvP scouting even an issue? Outside of the Nexus cancel 4/5 gate, I can usually work out what the Protoss is doing pretty easily.
 

zlatko

Banned
My 2 pennies as a newbier player is that the game HAS improved for Zerg from the full retail release to now. Buffs to Zerg stuff, nerfs to T and P, and maps have helped Zerg players out a good deal.

Is Zerg still on an even playing field yet? It's close, but it'd be nice to see something to help out early game scouting. Even in Gold, I can go into a Toss base with a drone, scout for a while seeing the usual opening. Then once the stalker comes out and kills that drone I'll wait a little then sac the overlord in. Usually, since it's Gold, I see a 4 gate being their plan, and I'll prepare for it. The 6 minute mark hits and I've cut drones to prepare spines and speed lings....wait more it still hasn't come. Then I send one ling over to where he is, and he's still on one fucking base up his fucking ramp. :/ At this point a Toss could have got a robo out to send a obs to find out wtf the turtler on 1 base is up to, and a Terran could just drop a scan or depending on their build could have thrown in a drop or a banshee to get the info they need as well as harass.

It's less of a problem right now for me as a low level player, because I can just fall back on good macro to beat out a moron who wants to sit on 1 base forever, but preparing for a 4gate when you Scout it, then it doesn't actually come is frustrating as shit for me to learn the game properly.

Would it really make Zerg Imba to make the overlord have more health, or give overlord some kind of ability to give itself 10-15 seconds of invincibility but once it's up it dies. It'd be great if I could just research this as like a 50m/50g tech off the spawning pool, then I could sack this OL to get proper details easy like an obs or a scan would.

Thoughts?
 
MrMister said:
You don't even know the bad luck I've had lately with technology.

Also, now I remember how long it takes to install SCII.

Just wait till you get to patches.

I booted up SC2 on my partition yesterday, a version I hadn't played really since launch and patching from almost nothing to the current patch took 15-20 minutes, if not more. It may not seem like too long a time, but when some of the patches are only a few MBs, it gets your hopes up. Especially annoying is that it will display 100% in the corner after each individual patch finishes and then reset to 0% soon after to start the next patch.
 

twofold

Member
zlatko said:
My 2 pennies as a newbier player is that the game HAS improved for Zerg from the full retail release to now. Buffs to Zerg stuff, nerfs to T and P, and maps have helped Zerg players out a good deal.

Is Zerg still on an even playing field yet? It's close, but it'd be nice to see something to help out early game scouting. Even in Gold, I can go into a Toss base with a drone, scout for a while seeing the usual opening. Then once the stalker comes out and kills that drone I'll wait a little then sac the overlord in. Usually, since it's Gold, I see a 4 gate being their plan, and I'll prepare for it. The 6 minute mark hits and I've cut drones to prepare spines and speed lings....wait more it still hasn't come. Then I send one ling over to where he is, and he's still on one fucking base up his fucking ramp. :/ At this point a Toss could have got a robo out to send a obs to find out wtf the turtler on 1 base is up to, and a Terran could just drop a scan or depending on their build could have thrown in a drop or a banshee to get the info they need as well as harass.

It's less of a problem right now for me as a low level player, because I can just fall back on good macro to beat out a moron who wants to sit on 1 base forever, but preparing for a 4gate when you Scout it, then it doesn't actually come is frustrating as shit for me to learn the game properly.

Would it really make Zerg Imba to make the overlord have more health, or give overlord some kind of ability to give itself 10-15 seconds of invincibility but once it's up it dies. It'd be great if I could just research this as like a 50m/50g tech off the spawning pool, then I could sack this OL to get proper details easy like an obs or a scan would.

Thoughts?

To be fair, the example that you gave has more to do with a lack of experience on your part than issues with scouting.

For example, if I scouted a 4 gate but the Protoss didn't push out/take his Natural, I'd make an extra 5-10 drones, pool larvae, grab a lair, drop a spore and send a ling to the other bases on the map to make sure he didn't grab a hidden expansion elsewhere.

30 workers with two expansions gives a much better economy than having 30 workers on one base.
 

zlatko

Banned
twofold said:
To be fair, the example that you gave has more to do with a lack of experience on your part than issues with scouting.

For example, if I scouted a 4 gate but the Protoss didn't push out/take his Natural, I'd make an extra 5-10 drones, pool larvae, grab a lair, drop a spore and send a ling to the other bases on the map to make sure he didn't grab a hidden expansion elsewhere.

30 workers with two expansions gives a much better economy than having 30 workers on one base.

Yup like I mentioned it's the fact I'm in gold, but it is still an issue with early scouting. I managed to spot a 4 gate push from a Toss, but it never comes because he's a moron.

I thought more about my idea of the 10-15 second invincibility OL ability and it'd lead to some major bull shit, so really I guess the only solutions would be make OL speed faster or have more health, or else/also make spine building time faster.

What do people here think would help fix the early game scouting for Zerg ?
 
zlatko said:
What do people here think would help fix the early game scouting for Zerg ?
Doesn't need to be fixed. Guessing is fine. Sporecrawlers are awesome, they can hold off any potential abuse. As long as you put a spinecrawler next to it. That's only the cost of a hatchery.
Oh they decided for a stim timing instead of going for either cloaked banshees or a blue flame drop. My bad, all my overlord scouted was a tech lab before 2 50 mineral units murdered it just like my drone before that.

Zerg doesnt need better scouting than the other races, take it from our very own NORTH AMERICAN MASTERS LEAGUE Protoss player 3 posts up who is well versed in each and every Zerg related matchup.
 

Zzoram

Member
mescalineeyes said:
Doesn't need to be fixed. Guessing is fine. Sporecrawlers are awesome, they can hold off any potential abuse. As long as you put a spore crawler next to it.
Oh they decided for a stim timing instead of going for either cloaked banshees or a blue flame drop. My bad, all my overlord scouted was a tech lab before 2 50 mineral units murdered it just like my drone before that.

Zerg doesnt need better scouting than the other races, take it from our very own NORTH AMERICAN MASTERS LEAGUE Protoss player 3 posts up who is well versed in each and every Zerg related matchup.

Maybe the trick is to always gas steal the Terran and baneling bust since he won't have tanks ready in time.

Not sure how to handle Protoss, maybe always gas steal then prepare for a 4gate. If he expands instead, attack with the army you prepared to hold off a 4gate since he'll have fewer sentries due to the later second gas.

Basically, attempt to take control of the situation and limit their options by delaying their second gas, then guessing odds improve.
 

zlatko

Banned
mescalineeyes said:
Doesn't need to be fixed. Guessing is fine. Sporecrawlers are awesome, they can hold off any potential abuse. As long as you put a spinecrawler next to it. That's only the cost of a hatchery.
Oh they decided for a stim timing instead of going for either cloaked banshees or a blue flame drop. My bad, all my overlord scouted was a tech lab before 2 50 mineral units murdered it just like my drone before that.

Zerg doesnt need better scouting than the other races, take it from our very own NORTH AMERICAN MASTERS LEAGUE Protoss player 3 posts up who is well versed in each and every Zerg related matchup.

Come on man cool off and come back.

My post was being genuine since I am a Zerg player as well. I was wondering what some of you higher level players think would work for a fix, as I'm not well versed enough to know what would be the fairest thing to help with this.
 

Striek

Member
mescalineeyes said:
Doesn't need to be fixed. Guessing is fine. Sporecrawlers are awesome, they can hold off any potential abuse. As long as you put a spinecrawler next to it. That's only the cost of a hatchery.
Oh they decided for a stim timing instead of going for either cloaked banshees or a blue flame drop. My bad, all my overlord scouted was a tech lab before 2 50 mineral units murdered it just like my drone before that.

Zerg doesnt need better scouting than the other races, take it from our very own NORTH AMERICAN MASTERS LEAGUE Protoss player 3 posts up who is well versed in each and every Zerg related matchup.
Every time you've replied to one of my posts you've taken a small portion of it, like this one (to which you've chosen to respond indirectly, kudos) and the one above, twisted it out of context, and replied to your own argument. It does get tiresome when I write indepth my thoughts and you dismiss them with this method.
 
zlatko said:
Yup like I mentioned it's the fact I'm in gold, but it is still an issue with early scouting. I managed to spot a 4 gate push from a Toss, but it never comes because he's a moron.

I thought more about my idea of the 10-15 second invincibility OL ability and it'd lead to some major bull shit, so really I guess the only solutions would be make OL speed faster or have more health, or else/also make spine building time faster.

What do people here think would help fix the early game scouting for Zerg ?
Serious answer? Scouting a toss is fairly easy. Keeping your drone alive long enough for hin to reveal his combination of a) amount of gases with b) his first post-cyber unit will tell you enough until you can sack your overlord. If you feel unsure get a third queen. DT timings are late enough to get lair in time, which should be your 2nd 100 gas anyway. I hope that answers your question?!
 

zlatko

Banned
mescalineeyes said:
Serious answer? Scouting a toss is fairly easy. Keeping your drone alive long enough for hin to reveal his combination of a) amount of gases with b) his first post-cyber unit will tell you enough until you can sack your overlord. If you feel unsure get a third queen. DT timings are late enough to get lair in time, which should be your 2nd 100 gas anyway. I hope that answers your question?!

What about against a Terran player?
 

twofold

Member
zlatko said:
Yup like I mentioned it's the fact I'm in gold, but it is still an issue with early scouting. I managed to spot a 4 gate push from a Toss, but it never comes because he's a moron.

I thought more about my idea of the 10-15 second invincibility OL ability and it'd lead to some major bull shit, so really I guess the only solutions would be make OL speed faster or have more health, or else/also make spine building time faster.

What do people here think would help fix the early game scouting for Zerg ?

Well, the thing about playing Toss is, they only have a few viable tech choices at that point and it's fairly easy to prepare for them all and still be ahead. If they go DT's, a Spore will take care of that. If they go Stargate, they won't have very many units out and your Queens (or Hydras if they take that long to push out) will deal with them while the Spores help.

Against Terran, the sheer number of openings available boggles the mind, and each requires a completely different response, not to mention how potent SCV all-ins can be.

I feel really comfortable playing against Protoss and Zerg since I can read them very well and know when to drone - against Terran, I feel totally lost.

I posted an example on the previous page - I sent in a sacced Overlord and saw a few marines, two factories, one with tech lab (that was researching) and one with reactor. My Overlord only saw a bit of the base so I didn't know whether he was expanding or not. I thought it'd be a blue flame hellion expand - turned out to be a marine/tank/hellion/scv all in.

It really, really sucks to lose games like that.

I really would love to work out how ZvT works, but the only way to do that is to play against more Terrans. Sadly - there are none on the ladder. Argh!
 
zlatko said:
What about against a Terran player?
Send in an scv, if you can, steal his gas while trying to get a peek at his tech choice in between cancels. While you are doing that, hover an overlord around the edges of their main, trying to get any I formation at all.

Pro tip: if you can steal their gas, they will usually be so busy killing off your extractor that your overlord might actually see something.

If your dronescout sees 2 barracks just tuck your tail between your legs and go home, pull 2 drones to your expansion and as soon as it pops build 2 spines behind your hatch.
Don't sack the overlord. If no bunker goes up, cancel 1 spine.

If the map is tal'darim just cross tour fingers they are fast expanding.
 

V_Arnold

Member
Striek, you are bullshitting big time. Come back when you actually managed to understand what Idra is saying about scouting vs defense.

In the meantime, chill out, drink some wine and think about how both Terran and Protoss can literally NOT GO WRONG by placing gate/core-rax/factory blindly, with a sentry/bunker for perfect and literally free "oh shit, here they came" defenses. Not to mention wallins.
 

zlatko

Banned
mescalineeyes said:
Send in an scv, if you can, steal his gas while trying to get a peek at his tech choice in between cancels. While you are doing that, hover an overlord around the edges of their main, trying to get any I formation at all.

Pro tip: if you can steal their gas, they will usually be so busy killing off your extractor that your overlord might actually see something.

If your dronescout sees 2 barracks just tuck your tail between your legs and go home, pull 2 drones to your expansion and as soon as it pops build 2 spines behind your hatch.
Don't sack the overlord. If no bunker goes up, cancel 1 spine.

If the map is tal'darim just cross tour fingers they are fast expanding.

Hmm. How come more pro players don't just steal gas then? What if they hide their buildings in good spots? Do I want to let the Extractor finish or just cancel right at the end ?

Edit: Sorry if I'm bugging you with too many questions. ^^; Just trying to learn more to help my own game since last few pages have been just a lot of back and forth about stuff over my head to form a solid opinion on.
 

V_Arnold

Member
mescalineeyes said:
Bro fist my Hungarian brother! <3

:D We gotta fight the good fight. It is too bad Idra is the one who started this argument, if it would have been (for example..)Jinro's opinion, many people would have taken the time to actually think about what he was talking about...
 

Striek

Member
V_Arnold said:
Striek, you are bullshitting big time. Come back when you actually managed to understand what Idra is saying about scouting vs defense.

In the meantime, chill out, drink some wine and think about how both Terran and Protoss can literally NOT GO WRONG by placing gate/core-rax/factory blindly, with a sentry/bunker for perfect and literally free "oh shit, here they came" defenses. Not to mention wallins.
I'm the guy who explains his thoughts carefully and thoroughly and I'm bullshitting. Cue rolleyes.

You two are probably the most whiny players in sc2gaf.
 
zlatko said:
Hmm. How come more pro players don't just steal gas then? What if they hide their buildings in good spots? Do I want to let the Extractor finish or just cancel right at the end ?

Edit: Sorry if I'm bugging you with too many questions. ^^; Just trying to learn more to help my own game since last few pages have been just a lot of back and forth about stuff over my head to form a solid opinion on.
Keep canceling it as often as you can/remember.

I don't know why pro players don't do it as much -- I guess because if he's 2 raxing you (strongest tvz build imo) it's fairly unnecessary.
 

V_Arnold

Member
Striek said:
I'm the guy who explains his thoughts carefully and thoroughly and I'm bullshitting. Cue rolleyes.

You two are probably the most whiny players in sc2gaf.

See, dude? The moment you go to this level, the moment you decide to, in addition to not making sense, declare "whiny zergs" yet again, is the moment you are not taken seriously. Masters or not masters. Hell, after that Idra stream, those allining grandmaster terrans probably knew less about the game than a gold EU random player ;)
 

Striek

Member
V_Arnold said:
See, dude? The moment you go to this level, the moment you decide to, in addition to not making sense, declare "whiny zergs" yet again, is the moment you are not taken seriously. Masters or not masters. Hell, after that Idra stream, those allining grandmaster terrans probably knew less about the game than a gold EU random player ;)
I didn't go to whiny zergs. I said you two. No race mention. Plenty of great zergs in SC2gaf that do and don't think the game is imbalanced. Its irrelevant.

Another misrepresented statement of mine though. Nice.
 
The NA server really is a joke. I decided I will play exclusively on it for the next week just to get to masters there since that seems to be the current threshold where you can make claims based on arguments woven out of thin air.
 

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
Striek said:
Zerg have the ability to get overlord speed at around the same time or not long after a protoss will get an observer or hallucinated phoenix in that matchup.
by the time you have an observer, you've already committed to a techpath that makes zergs day really hard.

it's all well and good to say we can get them at the same time [we really cant], but committing to scouting with any purpose requires us to waive time that would have otherwise been spent on the critical upgrades of whatever path zerg decides to go down. zerg units need upgrades to be viable, the commitment to a zerg techpath is a time commitment due to zergs requirement of a low gas enviroment to match protoss/terran economy.

so sure, a minute or two after you get an obs i can get an ovie that tells me i should or shouldnt have gotten that roach warren minutes ago.

Of course the protoss has already revealed his early game strategy because it will be post-expansion.
bullshit, it's been well established at this point that sentries and a low ground nexus is not proof you wont be 4gated.

We've seen a shit ton of games recently (GSL/NASL/EU cups) where zerg rolls the protoss nexus with a roach/ling attack simply because theres no way the protoss could know if its coming before committing to putting down cannons.
its not the zergs fault protoss players are lax and dont know how to scout. scouting early roach is as simple as seeing a single zergling as opposed to a speedling at certain timings [depending on if you scouted hatch first, 14/16, 14/14, etc]

there's a reason most zerg upgrades manifest visibly, you know.

Of course most pros do put down cannons. But its not very good if the zerg is being greedy.
also wrong, protoss can easily afford cannons without being set far behind [or behind at all] 2base vs 2base. Try it sometime, then compare incomes between games you did and didnt set down cannons.

But guess what, SC2 is a game of _limited information_.
Sc2 is a game that places a premium on information, but to design it specifically to be played in its absence is poor game design.

Again Zerg would be ridiculous if they could drone up to wherever they're personally comfortable, sacrifice an overlord and be almost guarenteed to see exactly what they need to deal with (ie. full base scout before dying) then build units/tech/drones to precisely counter that. You can't do that so long as zerg has the ability to do massive drone pumps. The other races would be forced out of macro games.
you're wrong ofcourse, the games economy does not support zerg to half the extent you think it does. there are natural limitations within the system that hobble early extreme growth from a zerg. perfect scouting or not, a zerg cant just get anything they want up until a last moment, once again you have failed to understand how zerg works. time. is. a. commitment. a serious commitment. we cant just scout you and immediately get what we need to counter it. spires take forever to build, lings are useless without speed, roaches hobbled and easily separated without burrow, hydras cannot naturally deal with forcefield/heavy gateway without range, etc. zergs economy would most certainly not explode in all circumstances. there just wouldn't be any autowins/rollover games anymore.

the idea that Terran and protoss specifically cannot compete evenly in a macro game with zerg is so absurd as to not merit comment. there's a reason zergs dont win macro games on terrans and protosses doorstep.
 

V_Arnold

Member
Pandaman said:
you're wrong ofcourse, the games economy does not support zerg to half the extent you think it does. there are natural limitations within the system that hobble early extreme growth from a zerg. perfect scouting or not, a zerg cant just get anything they want up until a last moment, once again you have failed to understand how zerg works. time. is. a. commitment. a serious commitment. we cant just scout you and immediately get what we need to counter it. spires take forever to build, lings are useless without speed, roaches hobbled and easily separated without burrow, hydras cannot naturally deal with forcefield/heavy gateway without range, etc. zergs economy would most certainly not explode in all circumstances. there just wouldn't be any autowins/rollover games anymore.

the idea that Terran and protoss specifically cannot compete evenly in a macro game with zerg is so absurd as to not merit comment. there's a reason zergs dont win macro games on terrans and protosses doorstep.

This is pretty much the most important part of your post. Sometimes it seems like in some player's minds, Zerg have all their arsenal up and readied, they have all the upgrades at what? 4:00? 5:00? Speed roaches, speed banes, burrow, speed overlords, a spire just in case, some infestor den, some basic upgrades? What else?

The reality is that if a Protoss does not scout an 5rr, he can STILL survive with pure force fields, but if he messes up scouting (via using a SINGLE PROBE! If the probe is caught off-creep by speedlings, then roaches are NOT coming - that is it. Another sign is the lack of hatchery, cause that is usually put down behind attacking roaches ;) But otherwise, sticking to a standard build will do you nothing wrong, if you have the proper scouting behind it. Even if your opponent wants to all-in you, the natural number of sentries can simply nullify it. Nullify. For any other tricky build, he has to commit HEAVILY. And that is scoutable.
 

Corran Horn

May the Schwartz be with you
rc6e7m.gif
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom