Striek said:
Zerg have the ability to get overlord speed at around the same time or not long after a protoss will get an observer or hallucinated phoenix in that matchup.
by the time you have an observer, you've already committed to a techpath that makes zergs day really hard.
it's all well and good to say we can get them at the same time [we really cant], but committing to scouting with any purpose requires us to waive time that would have otherwise been spent on the critical upgrades of whatever path zerg decides to go down. zerg units need upgrades to be viable, the commitment to a zerg techpath is a time commitment due to zergs requirement of a low gas enviroment to match protoss/terran economy.
so sure, a minute or two after you get an obs i can get an ovie that tells me i should or shouldnt have gotten that roach warren minutes ago.
Of course the protoss has already revealed his early game strategy because it will be post-expansion.
bullshit, it's been well established at this point that sentries and a low ground nexus is not proof you wont be 4gated.
We've seen a shit ton of games recently (GSL/NASL/EU cups) where zerg rolls the protoss nexus with a roach/ling attack simply because theres no way the protoss could know if its coming before committing to putting down cannons.
its not the zergs fault protoss players are lax and dont know how to scout. scouting early roach is as simple as seeing a single zergling as opposed to a speedling at certain timings [depending on if you scouted hatch first, 14/16, 14/14, etc]
there's a reason most zerg upgrades manifest visibly, you know.
Of course most pros do put down cannons. But its not very good if the zerg is being greedy.
also wrong, protoss can easily afford cannons without being set far behind [or behind at all] 2base vs 2base. Try it sometime, then compare incomes between games you did and didnt set down cannons.
But guess what, SC2 is a game of _limited information_.
Sc2 is a game that places a premium on information, but to design it specifically to be played in its absence is poor game design.
Again Zerg would be ridiculous if they could drone up to wherever they're personally comfortable, sacrifice an overlord and be almost guarenteed to see exactly what they need to deal with (ie. full base scout before dying) then build units/tech/drones to precisely counter that. You can't do that so long as zerg has the ability to do massive drone pumps. The other races would be forced out of macro games.
you're wrong ofcourse, the games economy does not support zerg to half the extent you think it does. there are natural limitations within the system that hobble early extreme growth from a zerg. perfect scouting or not, a zerg cant just get anything they want up until a last moment, once again you have failed to understand how zerg works. time. is. a. commitment. a serious commitment. we cant just scout you and immediately get what we need to counter it. spires take forever to build, lings are useless without speed, roaches hobbled and easily separated without burrow, hydras cannot naturally deal with forcefield/heavy gateway without range, etc. zergs economy would most certainly not explode in all circumstances. there just wouldn't be any autowins/rollover games anymore.
the idea that Terran and protoss specifically cannot compete evenly in a macro game with zerg is so absurd as to not merit comment. there's a reason zergs dont win macro games on terrans and protosses doorstep.
We gotta fight the good fight. It is too bad Idra is the one who started this argument, if it would have been (for example..)Jinro's opinion, many people would have taken the time to actually think about what he was talking about...
