pieatorium
Member
That Huk v Ryung game I mentioned half an hour ago just finished with Huk winning, it was pretty epic.
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//: StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty |OT2| GL HF GG
- Thread starter Corran Horn
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obviously, they would lose by making mistakes.zoukka said:
not scouting properly.
having bad mechanics.
poor army positioning.
you know, that stuff. no one wants a free black sheep wall. an OP zerg is just as bad as an UP one.
problem #2, an extra drone and a few spines is rarely enough. even day9 accepted that there is no generalized zerg build that can defend against anything without being behind.
mescalineeyes
Banned
Façade said:
so it's okay for zerg to be the only race that can't really harass or proxy things but and yet have the worst scouting even though for the other 2 races it's perfectly possible.
come on.
mescalineeyes
Banned
I am going to cite a specific example:
you scout the terran, you see 2 gases, a starport in construction and a factory with a tech lab.
what now? blue flame hellion drop? cloaked banshee? 2 port banshee? there is NO WAY to prepare for all of these and not be painfully behind.
that's all I am saying.
you scout the terran, you see 2 gases, a starport in construction and a factory with a tech lab.
what now? blue flame hellion drop? cloaked banshee? 2 port banshee? there is NO WAY to prepare for all of these and not be painfully behind.
that's all I am saying.
Pandaman said:
The race with the best macro mechanics isn't supposed to have an opening that's "completely safe".
I dunno man. I've given much headache to both toss and terran with just speedlings. And once drops/muta are out, the zerg has plenty of tools to harass the fuck out of anyone.
And I'd imagine that if I would play this game every day, I'd learn to position my ovies and buildings so that they help to prevent harassment. No reason to clump them in your main when you can zone hellions with them.
Isn't there a tech lab animation nowadays? That should help. Also with proper ovie/ling placement you can spot drops and banshees quite well before they hit you. Extra queens are necessary in both hellion/banshee harassment in my humble level
mescalineeyes
Banned
ok, let me rephrase that. zerg is the only race with negligible early game potential for aggression (that is not an all-in).
another thing that has to be said, you are vastly overstating zergs capability to drone.zoukka said:That's the price of being able to superdrone
in a reasonable game a toss that chronos econ off a sentry expand can easily match or exceed a zergs worker count. terran also get mules. the starcraft economy itself even hobbles the strentgh of droning by diminishing returns past the 16th drone. so even if a zerg can get 80 drones on 2 base, he's not making much more than a toss with 40 probes.
Pandaman said:
Strong defense we have. A foolproof build in which you can drone up behind would be stupid.
Pandaman said:
Easily? Sure if they build nothing but sentries and zerg techs up. But pure droning... no fucking way man.
He is once the third goes up. Those extra drones aren't giving you much instantly, but are an investment to lategame.
factory techlab eimitting green light with starport in construction = blue flame drop.mescalineeyes said:
1 port banshee is shit and your queens can defend with that. ( 95% of the time terran build 2 port together in the same spot).
not talking about balance but its a general advice that always help me in my tvt.
we dont.zoukka said:
you act like i want defense to be free, obviously a generalized all purpose defense build would have to be weak to econ play from the opposing player. take the spanishiwa opening, which certainly isnt an all purpose defense but hinges on power droning; its commonly accepted that the build is easily countered by econ play from a terran or protoss.
reasonable game. believe it or not, sentries and probes are not a huge mineral sink, so don't act like thats all toss could do while going econ.
are thirds free? are thirds guaranteed? once again you aren't talking about a reasonable ingame scenario. how are you going to hold an early third if you were turtling and droning? you cant. you need map control for that and map control means units, so immediately your scenario has flaws outside of gold league. This is a common flaw of theorycrafting, you sometimes forget that its a two player game.
Toss players on ladder are the saddest bunch of people. This guy tried to early DT rush me. He manages to get my main, but he had no clue how to fucking macro. I had all the bases on xelnaga and he was stuck on his main and his natural.
I asked him, 'What's wrong, don't know what to do after the cheese?' and he just ended up quitting out.
I asked him, 'What's wrong, don't know what to do after the cheese?' and he just ended up quitting out.
you have seriously put forward ther idea that a zerg can purely drone and somehow still take a third in a normal game.zoukka said:
that requires a level of passivity on the part of the protoss or terran that does not ever actually occur.
so as usual, the old offer comes by:
you play zerg, i play toss, we see how much macro advantage you can get over me playing an econ toss.
i remember you from beta, but havent seen you around much so if you're eu this'll prolly be impossible.
mescalineeyes
Banned
I don't think we will ever see Lurkers again. I don't have high hopes for HOTS making this game any better tbh.
Forcefields will still exist.
Forcefields will still exist.
Several questions for best Gaf:
Who here uses Steelseries kb,mice, and headsets? Which would you recommend to me? I have stock items, and the mouse I have has a somewhat shitty wheel that squeeks and doesn't flow well. I was also wondering if anyone knows where a cheap spot to get a good mousepad is, but the kind that are super wide left to right?
My other inquiry is what you guys would say is the biggest difference between a gold and platinum player? What do you think lets them make that jump? I'm curious if anyone who was once gold then jumped to platinum just 'knew' what it was that made their jump to that next level.
Who here uses Steelseries kb,mice, and headsets? Which would you recommend to me? I have stock items, and the mouse I have has a somewhat shitty wheel that squeeks and doesn't flow well. I was also wondering if anyone knows where a cheap spot to get a good mousepad is, but the kind that are super wide left to right?
My other inquiry is what you guys would say is the biggest difference between a gold and platinum player? What do you think lets them make that jump? I'm curious if anyone who was once gold then jumped to platinum just 'knew' what it was that made their jump to that next level.
AdventureRacing
Member
zlatko said:Toss players on ladder are the saddest bunch of people. This guy tried to early DT rush me. He manages to get my main, but he had no clue how to fucking macro. I had all the bases on xelnaga and he was stuck on his main and his natural.
I asked him, 'What's wrong, don't know what to do after the cheese?' and he just ended up quitting out.
My friend who i play with all the time plays toss and is close to giving up the game (i don't think he would hes just frustrated). Out of the last 10 or so pvp's hes played only only person hasn't done a proxy 2 gate on him (and they cannon rushed). The few times he actually gets a zerg or terran they pretty much always go for some form of 1 base all in (at least some zergs try and play macro games).
Hes managed to get up to plat but it just gets kind of frustrating when no one is interested in doing anything but cheesing.
I sometimes feel the same way. Lately i've been facing more and more people who try to just win off one base (or 2 at most) and if it doesn't work they just flounder around till i kill them.
Edit:
zlatko said:
My friend who i just mentioned just made this jump (though on SEA
). I don't think it was just one area though. Every part of his game is just more crisp than it used to be. Hes army positioning and FF's have improved, his expansion timings are slightly better and he is better at building probes. That plus he now actually has a few proper builds/timing attacks down pat.I think probably hes biggest step that allowed him to move up has been defending the cheese i was just talking about. If you can successfully hold off most cheese you will find yourself flying up the ladder.
I'd say one thing i have noticed change is hes confidence. He used to just get stuck in hes base and be too afraid to move out leaving him contained. Now he is much more proactive particularly in regards to keeping up with harassment.
Corran Horn
May the Schwartz be with you
And the image-nazi award goes to.......!Slavik81 said:
relax some. Become a chilltoss like the others.
AdventureRacing said:
Exactly how my ladder time is. I macro and play safe as Zerg. The only match up I get aggressive in and try to win off 2 base is ZvZ, because it's stupid as shit to even bother extending it to mid/late game. I'll go 14gas,14 pool, make a few lings, expand on 20 or 21, poke around to see what he's up to, set up spines, drone, baneling nest, play defensively, get a ton of lings/banes, put down a roach warren as I push out, and then go try to take out his expo. If it works(usually does), every Zerg is a moron and tries to just go for 1 base muta at this point. I just mass roach, push and win.
Oh I had a really good game of ZvZ today where the guy called me a noob/cheeser for doing this on meta on close spawn positions. He even said, "You suck at this game, my APM is higher than yours." I told him, "Great you know how to spam, maybe next time use that APM to actually win."
Ladder sucks for the most part, but I'm doing it in the hopes that if I ever get to masters league then the game becomes more likely to go to mid game scenarios at the least.
Pandaman said:
Well maybe you read my posts in a way that leaves no room for debate then. Of course the zerg needs some army to react or enough larva and bank to react. That's standard. What is good about spanishiwas preach is that not all zergs are playing all linear and moldy. You can get lingspeed and take drones off gas to drone up again until you feel that speedlings alone won't do it.
Get the tech you need, once you need it. I for one often fell to the trap of linear tech just when I had enough gas even though I didn't need a lair or a spire at that point.
And I'm EU, weren't you NA region?
The games I've seen from M/GM zerg streams include a lot of all-ins. People still want to win in ladder no matter the level.
Trickster
Member
zlatko said:Toss players on ladder are the saddest bunch of people. This guy tried to early DT rush me. He manages to get my main, but he had no clue how to fucking macro. I had all the bases on xelnaga and he was stuck on his main and his natural.
I asked him, 'What's wrong, don't know what to do after the cheese?' and he just ended up quitting out.
Generalization much?
mescalineeyes
Banned
It's so cute to see lower level players complain about getting cheesed all the time.
Guess what? In diamond and up, you face just as much cheese, only it's even better thought out
Guess what? In diamond and up, you face just as much cheese, only it's even better thought out
AdventureRacing
Member
zlatko said:
I had a similar incident. I was on close positions on shattered temple. I scouted an extremely late pool so i knew he was quick expanding. I managed to scout it without him seeing me (even though it should have been obvious to him). He tried to defend it with one late spine crawler and 6 slow lings.
He even walked out onto the map with his lings which i immediately surrounded and killed. I then rushed into his main with a bunch of lings and slaughtered his base.
He called me a noob who doesn't bother scouting and just all ins blindly. When i explained my reasoning he put me on ignore.
Best part is that was in diamond
.Pandaman said:
Well like I said, you clearly aren't willing to give any space in this discussion. Yes getting speed and droning is freakin standard. The point was that I've seen and experienced a shitload of builds where you get gas "just cuz" and once you have enough you do shit with it even though you'd be better off with just pure minerals.
Clearly this is well below your masters theorycrafting so I'll let you continue with your baneling busting ways.
mescalineeyes
Banned
I thought pulling off of gas to drone was fairly standard. :/
pieatorium
Member
It is, some leave 1 on there to slowly stockpile but it depends on what you are going for. It's actually a pretty big tell for your opponent if you still have 3 drones on gas while researching ling speed.mescalineeyes said:
mescalineeyes said:
Yes. Yes it is.
But when we see spanishiwa getting enough gas for +1 +1 and then pulling drones off gas, and thousands of people heralding him as an innovator, we can see how stagnant the game can be. (not because of game rules, but because of the players and the fact that this is still a fresh game compared to BW).
New question for dat Gaf.
Had a Terran today beat me with a weird army composition. He went heavy on Marauder, had a few hellions early on to try and harass with, and sprinkled in some marines. What should my army composition look like if this is what he's going for? Oh he also had medivacs to keep healing. I feel like if I had just gotten mutas earlier on I would've been fine, but they came out too late.
Had a Terran today beat me with a weird army composition. He went heavy on Marauder, had a few hellions early on to try and harass with, and sprinkled in some marines. What should my army composition look like if this is what he's going for? Oh he also had medivacs to keep healing. I feel like if I had just gotten mutas earlier on I would've been fine, but they came out too late.
mescalineeyes
Banned
I dont think spanishiwa is a good example, as everyone with half a brain can abuse the fuck out of that build.
ofcourse im not, debate isnt run on charity. carve out your own space in my argument.zoukka said:
...
getting resources you dont intend to or cant spend is a general game play flaw that can be applied to just about everyone in this game, it happens and you should try to avoid it. it is not however the same thing as stockpiling resources to exploit specific timings. most notably, stockpiling gas for big muta transitions used to be pretty popular and was powerful because mutalisks viability improves immensely in mass, so getting 1 muta at a ime was inarguably weaker than taking early econ hits to build into a large and powerful midgame mutalisk play.
other examples being roach openings and infestor play, which both have a similair early game but diverge at lair tech where zerg takes 3gysers for roach or 4 for infestor. thats a choice players make to get something, its not 'just cuz'.
so yea, im not going to give you that either. tuning your gas usage to balance econ vs teching is old as dirt, zerg play revolves around it, its not some new neglected idea that's just popped up because of spanishiwa. every zerg build uses this principle whether the people who copy it from liquipedia realize it or not. frankly, the difference between spanishiwa and the standard gas pull opening of zerg is not a huge effect to the economy. the strength and novelty of spanishiwas style is in larvae management.
yes, it is.
mescalineeyes said:
Nothing to do with balance though. If blizzard decide that the game is too luck based with zerg, then they can change the scouting options but they will have to change the other races to equal this out as well.
mescalineeyes said:
That's just part of the zerg race. It just happens that it is far more efficient to drone hard and then produce units, than drone and produce units at the same time.
zoukka said:And I'd imagine that if I would play this game every day, I'd learn to position my ovies and buildings so that they help to prevent harassment. No reason to clump them in your main when you can zone hellions with them.
Isn't there a tech lab animation nowadays? That should help. Also with proper ovie/ling placement you can spot drops and banshees quite well before they hit you. Extra queens are necessary in both hellion/banshee harassment in my humble level
yeah, after playing for a really long time, you might learn the special ovie placement... I could roll terran and perfectly make 2 starports and then make banshes out of them... probably on my first try !!!
Don't you see something wrong with the skill needed to execute the attack being far easier than the defense?
Pandaman said:
This was kinda my point. That mutabuild was so popular against Terran, that everyone learned how to break it in pieces because the zerg would just straight tech to mutas in order to get the harassment done ASAP. Then we see someone in a tourney beat terran with something new and the ladder goes apeshit about it. Same thing with spanishiwa. Moldy builds that wait to get ripped.
its not just one hyper obscure ovie positioning either, because if you asked someone where to put the ovie, the next thing you would hear is 'on what map?' and 'on what spawns?'. so you have about 100 different positioning situations to worry about.Ultrabum said:
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