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//: StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty |OT2| GL HF GG
- Thread starter Corran Horn
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mescalineeyes
Banned
HolyCheck said:congrats panda and elcheris!!!! this is awesome newsI hope you're both practicing your PvT really hard tonight!
better luck next time chanstaa and holden
unless the P in PvT stands for Panda you mean ZvP, surely?
or is there something we don't know, Panda? :>
i play at 4am like every day. >_>nilbog21 said:give holden a break, he had to play at like 4am - i'd love to see how some of u guys play at 4am
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splinter, i need you to help me fake a zvt match history. i want this guy to think im planning something super safe and then play standard.
Aquavelvaman
Banned
So I had a zerg put an evo chamber in front of my geyser. I'm not sure how to respond to that. I ended up killing it and just kiting the broodlings so they didn't really do any damage but it kept me from scouting for a while when my lings were killing it. I ended up winning but it's such a weird situation.
Pandaman said:Holden
Panda got some god like music for you to practice with:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPE8EesftLg
When's your next game ?
PhoenixDark
Banned
Good luck guys, you've already made us proud
mescalineeyes said:
Not day[9]'s fault that Idra didn't understand his point. Day[9] lost the argument because he argued poorly and was shouted down before he was able to properly articulate his point that clearly went over Idra's head. Shame JP isn't a better host and he didn't moderate the discussion more so both sides could talk about it calmly and actually be able to really talk.
It's pretty clear that Day[9] was making a point on a much higher level than Greg was willing to go to, and unlike Greg, Day[9] wasn't arrogant enough to presume that the final state of the game has already been unlocked.
We saw Greg basically show how close minded he is for the entire StoG to the point when Incontrol was constantly slapping him for it (playfully), I don't think much more needs to be said.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKV195eXg7Izlatko said:
Day9 didn't say anything insightful or useful whole session and going by his standards, we'll never reach the point when we can say there are balance issues. Further, certain aspects of the game can be broken even if nominally balance is fine. He should have just avoided the subject.Zen said:
TheThunder
Member
Didn't expect as many EU pros to play in the ipl qualifier as they did.
Next season should be good.
Next season should be good.
syllogism said:
From Day[9]'s perspective whining about balance issues is toxic to constructive thought and actually improving your game and that's kind of his thing. He may abstract things away from directly referring to balance issues, but it's for a specific point.
He has said for instance when things have been unfair in the game, or made things too hard for one race or another, or when a particular build/unit was too powerful and that's talking about balance without just saying "X is broken, cry cry".
Idra has amazing 'down in the trenches' understanding of the game, no doubt there, but so does Day[9], the difference is how both of them apply their knowledge and what boundaries they set for themselves. Greg is content to blame game design at every turn and call something broken when he has traditionally been very stubborn and inflexible. I don't feel that gives him the authority to speak on the absolute truth of Starcraft II.
It was like his example of 'well if the Terran is going banshee and you haven't scouted it, you die'. You can't just say that as a blanket statement of absolute truth. Day[9]'s point about how when the opponent reveals their tech path, it's a huge tell and severely limits the Terran econ and tactics is absolutely true.
Zerg may not have a ton of opening options right now (and even saying something like that is still highly presumptuous because we clearly haven't seen all the tactics yet) , but look at how many opening options that Terran ended up with in Starcraft Broodwar in the TvZ matchup after years of play (and we still have expansions to come).
Is Zerg 'broken', I don't think so.
As much as people will adapt to Spanishiwa's style, the games I've seen him lose aren't because people really figured out a magical build that BO wins against it. It's more because Spanishiwa has some key weaknesses in his play that people are exploiting.
And it's not like Spanishiwa's Zerg style is the only way to play it, obviously, but I happen to think it's a pretty cool and new so I like to name drop it
, but it's something that Idra wouldn't even have considered a possibility to exist prior to it coming out, where as Day[9] would never have discounted it permutating into existence.
Sniper McBlaze
Member
How the fuck could this game put me in silver league when I lost 4 games big time and accidentally won ONE?! Am I stuck in this league forever?
Aquavelvaman said:
Build the other geyser and expand. You won't be gas constrained in the early game anyway unless you were planning on doing one base muta or something. You can make Roaches or Banelings easily on one base.
Keikaku said:
ZvZ is awesome. Don't hate!
Just don't build Banelings if your micro isn't great. Focus on Roach/Ling and a-move to victory!
TheThunder
Member
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441
I knew trying to troll Chill was not a good idea.
I knew trying to troll Chill was not a good idea.
Yes we know that is day9's stance, which is exactly why he simply shouldn't talk about it. It's also completely subjective as to whether whining is "toxic" when you it's still in your best interest to come up with new builds as you are playing for living. Nestea is a good example as he is one of the biggest whiners in Korea and still does well. That banshee example is pretty inane as there are definitely builds that can't reliably be scouted and will kill or cripple you as zerg. Finally, this is not BW and just because BW ended up fine, does not mean the same will happen here and there are actually reasons to believe it won't. Expansions might address some of the inherent flaws, but I'm not holding my breath.
Perhaps once day9 actually has time to play the game he'll recognize the issues. Probably not, at least he won't say so publicly as he actively avoids saying anything controversial
Perhaps once day9 actually has time to play the game he'll recognize the issues. Probably not, at least he won't say so publicly as he actively avoids saying anything controversial
That was one of Idra's key examples.The funny part is, there are a lot of examples of things that use to give Idra trouble that he would cry broken about, and some of them were taken care of in patches, but others happened purely through evolution of the game. That's why I never take Idra 100 percent seriously on his balance discussion, he's stubborn to a fault and very biased, as Incontrol frequently points out.
And Idra's opinion on 'whining' is absolutely subjective as well, so he shouldn't speak on it either, I suppose? Day[9] will talk about 'imbalance' he just has a very different vernacular for doing so, and that shouldn't be an obstacle to discussion.
Obviously StarCraft BW and II are different games, but the fact that both will follow a path of evolution is not remotely questionable.
And Idra's opinion on 'whining' is absolutely subjective as well, so he shouldn't speak on it either, I suppose? Day[9] will talk about 'imbalance' he just has a very different vernacular for doing so, and that shouldn't be an obstacle to discussion.
Obviously StarCraft BW and II are different games, but the fact that both will follow a path of evolution is not remotely questionable.
Keikaku said:I'm a Zerg and you're a god-damned liar, sir
Haha. I used to be like you.. Then I saw the light!
Seriously, try this opening.
14 gas, 14 pool.
Get a Queen + 8 Zerglings.
Drop a Roach Warren asap.
Produce three Drones (should leave you with 16-ish drones)
Expand
It's a super safe opening that'll hold Banelings and can punish practically everything.
If your opponent is on one base, you'll have a bunch of Roaches and Speedlings ready to hold off whatever they're doing.
If your opponent expands, drop an evo chamber, produce 8 Drones and send them to your natural, grab +1 ranged and build Roaches while the upgrade finishes. Once your +1 finishes, send all your Roaches out and reinforce with Zerglings.
Transition into Roach/Infestor if need be, but you'll win most of your games with your +1 push.
If you pull it off right, if your opponent is going Mutas, you can drop a few spores and outright kill them. The only thing that hurts you is if your opponent goes hatch first and econ heavy. If that happens, make sure to harass them a lot with your initial 8 lings to force Zerglings out.
This might not work in the super high levels, but it works very well for me against Diamond/Master players.
zoukka said:
I'm definitely guilty of doing this, but I know deep down that 90% of my losses are due to issues with mechanics and shitty macro more than anything.
I think it was Tyler who said in the last sotg that, unless you're mid-high masters, your losses are probably due to poor mechanics. He speaks the truth.
RE Zerg having crap scouting info: Protoss are in a similar position to Zerg in ZvP as Zerg are in the ZvT matchup.
With the current ZvP matchup, Protoss are favoring Forge expo or 3 gate expo against Zerg, and with both of these you're essentially blind to the Zerg until the 7 minute mark. Unless mess up in some way, the Zerg have early map control with speedlings, and Protoss are in a defensive stance against what ever the Zerg might do. and we've seen Losira and Nestea exploiting that to great effect.
Idra's counter argument is probably that the 200/200 death ball is unstoppable... if you're using a roach/ling/hydra ball. We've seen zergs finding more success against maxed armies by using infestors, banes, ultras or brood lords in the mix. Not to say that picking apart a Protoss prior to his maxing (by using fungals on mineral lines, or what ever) is impossible either, even if the Protoss is sitting on 2 base. It's a tough matchup, sure, but it's constantly evolving.
With the current ZvP matchup, Protoss are favoring Forge expo or 3 gate expo against Zerg, and with both of these you're essentially blind to the Zerg until the 7 minute mark. Unless mess up in some way, the Zerg have early map control with speedlings, and Protoss are in a defensive stance against what ever the Zerg might do. and we've seen Losira and Nestea exploiting that to great effect.
Idra's counter argument is probably that the 200/200 death ball is unstoppable... if you're using a roach/ling/hydra ball. We've seen zergs finding more success against maxed armies by using infestors, banes, ultras or brood lords in the mix. Not to say that picking apart a Protoss prior to his maxing (by using fungals on mineral lines, or what ever) is impossible either, even if the Protoss is sitting on 2 base. It's a tough matchup, sure, but it's constantly evolving.
TheThunder
Member
Pretty much.Won said:
If a gaffer had the same legion of fanboys like Idra and tried to pull this on Gaf's mods, a prema would've come so fast...
pieatorium
Member
Not really no, the zerg is in as much darkness as the protoss in this situation. Most of the time I think the observer/phoenix/hallu phoenix will be out before the Overseer unless the toss is doing 6/7gate agression which you don't really need to know what the zerg is doing because nothing is particularly deadly to a toss going for that unless it's mass hydra but a zerg won't do that blindly against certain openers or they lose straight up to collosus. Burrow move roaches are aout the only other thing that would be trouble for mass gateway at that stage but it's possible to get a robo just for observer for this kind of push.Zen said:
edit: i will admit it's hard for the toss to know if it's aggression or passivity coming out of the zerg but you are giving up scouting and/or map control for your build, especially if forge expanding.
pieatorium said:
The 3 gate expand/forge builds are so easy to see just by scouting the base/seeing the expand go down, making it a huge tell by the protoss as to the their options within the next couple minutes. The reverse is not true for Protoss being able to scout the zerg and accurately tell if the zerg is going for econ or aggression. This is why we might see more 2 gate pressure from Protoss eventually. It is up to the Protoss to tell specifically if the zerg is going for aggression or econ in this situation, but if the zerg is playing properly, the protoss just can't. I think we've seen enough examples of Zergs punishing the protoss for these builds by using that early blindness, that Protoss may start shifting away from it.
AdventureRacing
Member
Zen said:
The difference is the zerg is supposed to be the reactive race. We need that information to know exactly what unit composition/upgrades we should be getting. Unlike protoss we aren't just constantly building our army so we need information in advance to be able to prepare for an attack.
That plus the fact that there is just so many less things a zerg can throw at you than a protoss. One strong timing push is nothing compared to all the things a terran can do to a zerg.
Even if the protoss could scout exactly what the zerg was doing i doubt the unit composition would change very much that early in the game.
Also im not complaining as i love ZvT, i win about 90% of them (it's my ZvP which is holding me back). I just think the situations are different.
Edit:
ribbonlace said:
In the early game when you don't have many overlords it should be easy to manage. In the late game i think upgrading overlord speed could be a big help for you. I used to have a much bigger problem with this but getting ovie speed has helped me a great deal.
mescalineeyes
Banned
I can't wait for the huge metagame shift that will allow zerg to scout.
thank you day9 you fucking moron.
thank you day9 you fucking moron.
mescalineeyes said:
I think what he was saying is that Zerg will get better at learning the right ways to handle what aggression the Terran is doing in the early game with the minimal of investment.
Here's an example.
I've been watching a lot of Nerchio's replays recently since he's been doing really well against Euro Terrans. He opens 14h/14p/16g every game. He drops a Spine at his natural as soon as his natural completes.
If he sees two rax, he grabs metabolic boost when he hits 100 gas. If he sees one rax, he drops a Roach Warren at around 24 food and then grabs 3 Roaches to hold off any Hellion shenanigans. He drops an evo chamber a little later if he suspects a Banshee is coming. Metabolic boost can be taken after Lair if necessary.
This opening feels really strong against the various Terran openings while still allowing you to drone really hard.
Over time, openings like this will get more refined as people learn where they can cut a few corners to get ahead and still be safe.
I don't think we'll ever see Zerg being able to be aggressive in the early game, though, due to the reasons stated by Idra. Even July, the most aggressive Zerg in the world, has to play super passively for the first few minutes of the game.
cubicle47b
Member
Time for Idra to make the equivalent of Opa-age.
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