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[Meeru]

well another thing is..EU is gona be at a disdvantage cuz of lag

 

[vicissitudes]

Playing against the AI just trying to practice my macro. Seems like a huge jump in difficulty between hard and very hard. I keep getting crushed by the VH AI's push at ~7:00 where the hard's early push (and everything else, really) is very easy to handle. I take it that's a legitimate army it pushes with though, right? Does the AI ever cheat, or does it always play straight-up?

Only insane AI cheats.

 

[LakeEarth]

Playing against the AI just trying to practice my macro. Seems like a huge jump in difficulty between hard and very hard. I keep getting crushed by the VH AI's push at ~7:00 where the hard's early push (and everything else, really) is very easy to handle. I take it that's a legitimate army it pushes with though, right? Does the AI ever cheat, or does it always play straight-up?

The hard -> very hard jump is too large. There should be a difficulty level in between. The best way to beat it (except for cheese and early rushes) is to macro your ass off, stop the first major push and then take what's left to his base cause he'll have nothing to defend with.

 

[eosos]

Fucking marauders. 125 hp?! You jokin?

 

[VASPER]

I know i can google it, but does anyone have some good preferable pro replays?

 

[Pandaman]

I know i can google it, but does anyone have some good preferable pro replays?

i upload my games to star2.org, you can find em there.

 

[Scrow]

Fucking marauders. 125 hp?! You jokin?

huh? it's not that bad considering comparable units from the other races that you can get at roughly the same time.

roaches have 145 and stalkers have 160 (including shields).

 

[Pandaman]

huh? it's not that bad considering comparable units from the other races that you can get at roughly the same time.

roaches have 145 and stalkers have 160 (including shields).

dohoho.

 

[FoxSpirit]

huh? it's not that bad considering comparable units from the other races that you can get at roughly the same time.

roaches have 145 and stalkers have 160 (including shields).

Maruders AND Stalkers deal bonus damage to roaches. The Marauders so much it obilterates them, especially with stim.

 

[mrgone]

well another thing is..EU is gona be at a disdvantage cuz of lag

SC2 is a synchronized game, meaning that any lag experienced by one player is shared by the other(s). It might be annoying from time to time, but it won't be a balance issue

 

[Zen]

dohoho.

Zerg don't count.

 

[VASPER]

i upload my games to star2.org, you can find em there.

Sweet thanks man.

 

[elrechazado]

i upload my games to star2.org, you can find em there.

he said pro replays

 

[watervengeance]

SC2 is a synchronized game, meaning that any lag experienced by one player is shared by the other(s). It might be annoying from time to time, but it won't be a balance issue

Yeah, I've played on the EU server before and the lag wasn't that bad.

 

[eosos]

huh? it's not that bad considering comparable units from the other races that you can get at roughly the same time.

roaches have 145 and stalkers have 160 (including shields).

yeah.........
edit : marauders fucking obliterate stalkers too. Marauderes also cost like 100 min 25 gas. Oh and marauders have stim. Oh and marauders have concussive shells. Oh and fuck marauders.

 

[watervengeance]

:lol

Yes, everyone hates Marauders.

 

[Vaporak]

:lol

Yes, everyone hates Marauders.

I used to hate them, but I've made my peace now and don't really have problems with them anymore.

 

[eosos]

I used to hate them, but I've made my peace now and don't really have problems with them anymore.

You're just suppressing your rage.

 

[Scrow]

Maruders AND Stalkers deal bonus damage to roaches. The Marauders so much it obilterates them, especially with stim.

yeah, i know that. for a unit that's cheaper and costs less time to make i'd expect them to have disadvantages against units like marauders and stalkers that cost more and take longer to build.

when i say "comparable" i'm not talking about the units going 1-on-1 against each other. sc2 is a game of large armies and that's where the balance between cost/time/unit performance should start showing. when your army of roaches clashes with an army of stalkers/marauders you should have more roaches, which should theoretically balance out their deficiencies somewhat.

also consider that roaches do 16 damage to ALL units; that's fairly high for a unit's base damage, with no bonuses. stalkers do 14 damage to armored units (10 against unarmored). marauders do 20 damage to armored units (10 against unarmored). throw in some unarmored units with your roaches and suddenly that bonus damage counts for zip (down to 10 damage from 14 or 20), while your roaches will still be dishing out reasonably high damage for a relatively low cost.

edit: if anything i'd say the problem with marauders isn't their health pool, but their bonus damage to armored units. seems just a touch too high. their health seems fine to me.

 

[eosos]

yeah, i know that. for a unit that's cheaper and costs less time to make i'd expect them to have disadvantages against units like marauders and stalkers that cost more and take longer to build.

when i say "comparable" i'm not talking about the units going 1-on-1 against each other. sc2 is a game of large armies and that's where the balance between cost/time/unit performance should start showing. when your army of roaches clashes with an army of stalkers/marauders you should have more roaches, which should theoretically balance out their deficiencies somewhat.

also consider that roaches do 16 damage to ALL units; that's fairly high for a unit's base damage, with no bonuses. stalkers do 14 damage to armored units (10 against unarmored). marauders do 20 damage to armored units (10 against unarmored).

yeah but it doesnt

 

[Won]

Marauders are boring, but also a necessary evil.

 

[pieatorium]

yeah, i know that. for a unit that's cheaper and costs less time to make i'd expect them to have disadvantages against units like marauders and stalkers that cost more and take longer to build.

when i say "comparable" i'm not talking about the units going 1-on-1 against each other. sc2 is a game of large armies and that's where the balance between cost/time/unit performance should start showing. when your army of roaches clashes with an army of stalkers/marauders you should have more roaches, which should theoretically balance out their deficiencies somewhat.

also consider that roaches do 16 damage to ALL units; that's fairly high for a unit's base damage, with no bonuses. stalkers do 14 damage to armored units (10 against unarmored). marauders do 20 damage to armored units (10 against unarmored). throw in some unarmored units with your roaches and suddenly that bonus damage counts for zip (down to 10 damage from 14 or 20), while your roaches will still be dishing out reasonably high damage for a relatively low cost.

the 3 range difference kills the roaches more than anything vs stalkers and rauders untill you can get roach speed and even then you will be up against stim,concussive shell, forcefield and sometimes blink.
edit: i agree the bonus to armored is too high, the building sniping capabilities of a handfull of stimmed marauders is insane.

 

[Scrow]

the 3 range difference kills the roaches more than anything vs stalkers and rauders untill you can get roach speed and even then you will be up against stim, forcefield and sometimes blink.

i'm not going to go into all the other units, abilities, upgrades etc. that you can encounter and whether all those things considered in an army composition makes a single unit "balanced" or not.

but i will agree that the roach's range seems too short.

all i really wanted to say is that the roach is comparable to the marauder. not necessarily better or matched... simply comparable. i mean, what other unit from the zerg would you say is comparable to the marauder? roach is the closest thing i could think of.

both units have high health for infantry level units, medium to high damage, ranged attack, armored, same supply, cost the same gas, build times are 3 seconds apart, same movement speed (ignoring stim or creep multiplier).

yes there are differences between the units (sight, range, concussive shells, fast regen/burrow, burrowed movement, attack speed), and the marauder has a clear advantage against them (20 damage every 1.5 seconds is too much fire power), but i think it's fair to say they're comparable units, especially when only considering their health, which is what started this whole discussion in the first place.

 

[Meeru]

so gaf night?

 

[Yaweee]

Now I'm in a back and forth battle for first in my (unusually shitty) division, around 1350. The old leader has stopped playing (163 BP accrued), and is now in 4th.

My icon finally changed from Random to Protoss, so I think I played exactly 99 games as Random before switching. 114-85.

I'm so horrible in PvZ. It's like the inverse of my ridiculous PvP ratio.

 

[jasonng]

I'm down for a gaf night. Maybe we can get a game of MrMister's map going?

 

[pieatorium]

i'm not going to go into all the other units, abilities, upgrades etc. that you can encounter and whether all those things considered in an army composition makes a single unit "balanced" or not.

but i will agree that the roach's range seems too short.

all i really wanted to say is that the roach is comparable to the marauder. not necessarily better or matched... simply comparable. i mean, what other unit from the zerg would you say is comparable to the marauder? roach is the closest thing i could think of.

both units have high health for infantry level units, medium to high damage, ranged attack, armored, same supply, cost the same gas, build times are 3 seconds apart, same movement speed (ignoring stim or creep multiplier).

yes there are differences between the units (sight, range, concussive shells, fast regen/burrow, burrowed movement, attack speed), and the marauder has a clear advantage against them (20 damage every 1.5 seconds is too much fire power), but i think it's fair to say they're comparable units, especially when only considering their health, which is what started this whole discussion in the first place.

I agree I was just saying that I think that the range difference is a bigger reason for roaches not doing well vs maruaders than the firepower.

 

[Yaweee]

Now I'm in a back and forth battle for first in my (unusually shitty) division, around 1350. The old leader has stopped playing (163 BP accrued), and is now in 4th.

My icon finally changed from Random to Protoss, so I think I played exactly 99 games as Random before switching. 114-85.

I'm so horrible in PvZ. It's like the inverse of my ridiculous PvP ratio.

Dropped to 2nd without playing a game since this post. Fuck!

 

[FoxSpirit]

Just a short math push:

Stalkers: 7/9.7 dps
Marauder: 6.66/13.33 dps
stimmed: 10/20 dps
Roach: 8 vs all

As we can see, non-blink Stalkers are actually pretty even vs Roaches. Marauders on the other hand already deal over 50% more damage for only 25 minerals more, of which Terran is normaly not in Short supply. Stimmed it goes to over 100% which simply spells annihilation. And we didn't even factor in the kiting from consussion.

Fortunately Z/B/inf armies annihiliate MMM balls so very hard. You wouldn't believe how weel Lings take marauder fire.

 

[Zen]

It just doesn't feel right only having 100+posts in this thread. Hopefully we regain equilibrium and maintain the speed we had going in the last thread.

 

[Yaweee]

Now THIS was an interesting game. Both of us went for the fast Warpgate, but a slight variation wins it.

Spoiler

Last time I tried getting a Forge to counter WG I lost to Stalkers, but my later timing led my opponent to not get Gas/Stalkers in time.

Back in 1st =)

 

[Hazaro]

Watching an SC game live is a bit more fun
Sound and video quality so much better. Each mine and tank hit you feel an impact.

 

[starsky]

Hazaro, I'm envious. Watching the best player of StarCraft playing must be awesome. Did you manage to shake hand with Flash or get his autograph?

 

[Sblargh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE7YYuB59f8&feature=player_embedded

Huk is just too awesome.

 

[Hazaro]

Hazaro, I'm envious. Watching the best player of StarCraft playing must be awesome. Did you manage to shake hand with Flash or get his autograph?

:lol No.
Korean coach and personnel hustling and moving him to the back after like he is a valuable commodity

It was nice to be able to see their faces the entire match, but Flash and Kal are both so composed.
Flash didn't even twitch or change his face as 2 shuttles with reavers dropped his undefended main and sniped his 2 armories. MERELY A SETBACK FOR FLASH.

Lost 25 tanks mid battle? Down 40 food with no map advantage? Down a base?
No problem. Flash back up to 105 vs 106 food in 20 seconds. So insane. Glad the games were good and Kal didn't just get stomped.

Also day9 daily is up!
http://www.ustream.tv/day9tv

*Flash! What are you doing!

 

[ZealousD]

Now I'm in a back and forth battle for first in my (unusually shitty) division, around 1350. The old leader has stopped playing (163 BP accrued), and is now in 4th.

My icon finally changed from Random to Protoss, so I think I played exactly 99 games as Random before switching. 114-85.

I'm so horrible in PvZ. It's like the inverse of my ridiculous PvP ratio.

What's your strategy in PvZ? It's usually my best matchup. 4gate wins so many games outright.

 

[TemplaerDude]

Holy crap just played a really good PvZ. I was so sure the guy had me a number of times. I think he got trigger shy 'cause I was definitely pulling shit around the map too often.

Once I saw him going mass roach though I just pumped out some immortals. So close though! Back and forth!

 

[Yaweee]

What's your strategy in PvZ? It's usually my best matchup. 4gate wins so many games outright.

I haven't had much luck after the patch with 4 Gating, but I probably should try. The problem is that I'm not facing people that are doing the nice, slow start fast expansions. When they do that, I often have nice long, good games, and even if I get eked out I know what I did wrong (not enough production buildings, not Collosi fast enough, etc.) I had a lot of luck 3 Gate->1StarGate play. My big problem now is that I'm not good against very early aggression from one-base; 6 pool trying runbys, baneling busts, or Roaches/Links on very small maps. I feel so... constrained and trapped in my base against 1-base lings, and I've been screwed by insufficient scouting.

I've thumbsed down Steppes, so that should help.

Another issue: My PvP win-rate is so ridiculous (likely 80+% since switching to Toss) that it is has boosted my rating so much that I'm playing Zerg well beyond my skill level. I also had a very long stretch where SC2 felt like a 2 race game (probably only 20~25 of 100 Protoss games have been against Zerg.) I'm around 1400 Diamond now, but my PvZ skill feels like it would be hundreds of points lower, or more.

 

[starsky]

Flash HWAITING!

How about Jaedong? I saw him sitting in the audience.

 

[Kunan]

That game that day 9 just covered was sweet. Very much so about being calm when it seems things are over from a rush, and then building back up to possibly win the game

 

[jasonng]

Can we get a gaf game of Nexus Word Wars going? It's quite possibly the best map ever made in all of starcraft enitrely.

 

[keuja]

Maruders AND Stalkers deal bonus damage to roaches. The Marauders so much it obilterates them, especially with stim.

 

[Yaweee]

So, I'm at exactly 200 1v1 Ladder games played. Statistics Time!
115 Wins
85 Losses
99 games as Random
101 games as Protoss
1380 Rating Diamond

57.5% win ratio
World Rank: Barely in the top 5000 (sc2ranks not updated)
Region Rank: 1600?
Was 103rd highest Random player because it hadn't switched icons until now.

I wish there were more statistics stored like they had for WC3... =(

 

[Kenaras]

Just a short math push:

Stalkers: 7/9.7 dps
Marauder: 6.66/13.33 dps
stimmed: 10/20 dps
Roach: 8 vs all

As we can see, non-blink Stalkers are actually pretty even vs Roaches. Marauders on the other hand already deal over 50% more damage for only 25 minerals more, of which Terran is normaly not in Short supply. Stimmed it goes to over 100% which simply spells annihilation. And we didn't even factor in the kiting from consussion.

Fortunately Z/B/inf armies annihiliate MMM balls so very hard. You wouldn't believe how weel Lings take marauder fire.

I don't think these kinds of comparisons are all that valuable in terms of actual game balance, but for some reason I love doing them anyway; it's almost an obsessive-compulsive thing. Anyway:

25 more minerals is 33%, which isn't insignificant. Comparing costs directly is difficult because of the different resources required, but it wouldn't be too far off to say that Marauders cost 20% more overall, while Stalkers cost 60% more.* So for a ballpark comparison:

24 Roaches = 192/192 dps, 3480 health
20 Marauders = 133/267 dps, 2500 health
20 Stimmed = 200/400 dps, 2100 health
15 Stalkers = 104/146 dps, 2400 health+shields

* I'm counting the 2 supply cost as equal to 25 minerals - 1/4 the cost of a supply unit. I'm also counting gas as equal in value to minerals. Neither of these are perfectly true, of course - but trying to weight them differently would just be opening a can of worms.

 

[vicissitudes]

Can we get a gaf game of Nexus Word Wars going? It's quite possibly the best map ever made in all of starcraft enitrely.

<3 Nexus Word Wars

 

[Corran Horn]

Hmm Jaedong on SC2

How do you see the future of StarCraft: BroodWar and will you change to StarCraft 2?
- I will definitely change to StarCraft II as I feel that StarCraft 2 is having a higher status then StarCraft: Broodwar. We will see more international tournaments in SC2 compared to StarCraft: Broodwar and this will make the change natural for me. I want to build my reputation abroad and reach out to the international audience but when I decide to change game I can not say, it can be today, it can be tomorrow it can be in a couple of years.

That would be epic but cant see anytime soon since BW is still so popular in Korea.

 

[Zzoram]

So, I'm at exactly 200 1v1 Ladder games played. Statistics Time!
115 Wins
85 Losses
99 games as Random
101 games as Protoss

57.5% win ratio
World Rank: Barely in the top 5000 (sc2ranks not updated)
Region Rank: 1600?
Was 103rd highest Random player because it hadn't switched icons until now.

I wish there were more statistics stored like they had for WC3... =(

I'm asuming that's for Diamond league since you didn't state otherwise.

 

[Zzoram]

Hmm Jaedong on SC2


That would be epic but cant see anytime soon since BW is still so popular in Korea.

Flash also said that he and Jaedong would be the titans of Broodwar for 5 more years if the game has that many years left.

 

[Hazaro]

Flash HWAITING!

How about Jaedong? I saw him sitting in the audience.

I didn't see him, was on the left side mostly. He came up at the awards ceremony which I did not attend because there were 20 people left and traffic was going to get bad.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Just a short math push:

Stalkers: 7/9.7 dps
Marauder: 6.66/13.33 dps
stimmed: 10/20 dps
Roach: 8 vs all

As we can see, non-blink Stalkers are actually pretty even vs Roaches. Marauders on the other hand already deal over 50% more damage for only 25 minerals more, of which Terran is normaly not in Short supply. Stimmed it goes to over 100% which simply spells annihilation. And we didn't even factor in the kiting from consussion.

Fortunately Z/B/inf armies annihiliate MMM balls so very hard. You wouldn't believe how weel Lings take marauder fire.

i can believe it