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//: StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty |OT3| GL HF NO GG

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Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
Jeff-DSA said:
The fact that Infestors are getting a nerf is telling enough. It's a fact that Infestors are overpowered as they are right now.
so thors with energy and thors without energy are up and op respectively?

You're going to be in for a rude awakening when you're still losing every tvz after the patch because nobody you have ever played has ever done anything properly with infestor/broodlord.
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
Pandaman said:
so thors with energy and thors without energy are up and op respectively?

You're going to be in for a rude awakening when you're still losing every tvz after the patch because nobody you have ever played has ever done anything properly with infestor/broodlord.

How many Thor rushes have you seen since they nerfed the Thor being able to use that strike cannon so quickly? They're essentially non-existent these days.
 

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
Jeff-DSA said:
How many Thor rushes have you seen since they nerfed the Thor being able to use that strike cannon so quickly? They're essentially non-existent these days.
the lack of energy was a buff to the speed of strike cannon...

But yes, thanks for discrediting the 'its been patched so its imba' argument for me. :p
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
Pandaman said:
the lack of energy was a buff to the speed of strike cannon...

But yes, thanks for discrediting the 'its been patched so its imba' argument for me. :p

Come now, it's the same reason they're nerfing the blue flame upgrade. It's too strong against worker units. Don't act like there's not an issue with the Infestor against bi--er, everything.
 

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
Jeff-DSA said:
Come now, it's the same reason they're nerfing the blue flame upgrade. It's too strong against worker units. Don't act like there's not an issue with the Infestor against bi--er, everything.
I can promise you that you have never ever lost a game because of infestors.

I can also tell you that the nerf as it currently is known will only lower the overhead damage on current infestor fungal counts. almost every single unit will still die to the same amout of fungals.

medivacs will still only be able to save one marine/marauder/ghost each in a chain fungal. your marines will still die just as easily.
 

Striek

Member
PhoenixDark said:
So sc2 gaf, what is your personal state of the game looking like?
TvT: I enjoy it. Quickly getting better at it. In the last few days my capabilities have gone from decent one-base to decent macro game all around. More dynamic with my army movements. Macro is far better, I can now produce out of 5-6 factories on 3 base (mech) where before I was intermittently producing out of a couple rax and 1 factory and floating 2k/2k by the 12min mark.

TvZ: I enjoy it. I'm horrible at it though. Making progress with harass but I still have no sense of timings. Have no idea how to deal with infestor-based armies without EMP, so incorporating ghosts into my build will be a key thing I look to do in the next week.

TvP: I enjoy it. I mostly focus on MMM+Viking, but once again my macro is a lot better. I can pretty much get to 200/200 without having too much money if the game goes that long. Need to use ghosts more (again), I get rolled by colossus+templar armies occasionally.

ZvT: I enjoy it. I play ling/bling/muta. Always hatch-first. Defending 2-rax is very easy. Still weak to drop harassment and mass thors. Will work on using infestors in the matchup. Also need to tech to broodlords a lot faster. I get stuck in mass-muta mindset.

ZvZ: I enjoy it. I typically go 14/13 into ling/bling, occasionally roaches. Have some problems against mass ling builds where I'm going greedy on drones (I always assume my opponent is playing heavy macro by default). If its roach/infestor vs. roach/infestor I usually win with superior macro.

ZvP: I enjoy it. I've tried a bunch of new strategies lately. The standard roach/infestor, mutalisks, fast drops etc. I spend most of my time spreading dat creep though. Working on creating multiple army groups (Army 1, Infestors 2, Lings for counter 3 etc.).

PvT: I enjoy it. I play super standard mostly. 1/1/1 is a bitch, but anything else I can usually stop dead. Most terrans at the low-mid masters level aren't harassing very well and I'll easily win a macro game, but you occasionally get some dude with really awesome drops who I just can't deal with.

PvZ: I enjoy it. VERY hard matchup though. Every viable build you have feels super vulnerable or super all-in. I usually forge FE into blink stalkers. Taking a third is super hard. If it goes to the late game I need to work on getting more HTs to counter infestors.

PvP: I enjoy it. Have a pretty good winrate with a defensive 4gate into blink. The majority of my opponents simply do a standard 4gate and fail. Occasionally I'll lose to a better blink player/defensive blink player.
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
Pandaman said:
prove me wrong.

Prove to you that I've lost games because of Infestors? How am I supposed to do that? Screen capture a bunch of matches? Upload a bunch of replays? It's not worth the time to debate a point that I already know I'm right about. I've lost many games because of Infestors and that ridiculous root effect that fungal has.

I'm sorry if you don't think the counter to everything unit isn't responsible for changing matches. It kind of confuses me that you wouldn't expect it to be doing so.
 

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
Jeff-DSA said:
Prove to you that I've lost games because of Infestors? How am I supposed to do that? Screen capture a bunch of matches? Upload a bunch of replays? It's not worth the time to debate a point that I already know I'm right about. I've lost many games because of Infestors and that ridiculous root effect that fungal has.
Bullshit.
As someone that has had some experience in gaf with helping people improve their play, i can tell you that the thought process that typically occurs at your level is utterly alien. i dont even try to understand what people like you are doing in the context of my own experiences because it never makes sense.

hell, look on the last page where i was going over the replays of a platinum zerg.
look at the last game.

this is a player that outranks you who gets double evo but is 0/0 when the hive completes. gets the hive, but never uses any of its tech options. holds an attack and expands, but doesn't drone at all. climbs his resources into the 5 digit range but doesn't have 200 available supply and leaves a game. I see a protoss player who intentionally forces a speedling opener, the exact counter to a 4gate and then 4gates. I see terrans who open 2rax double techlab to research one upgrade at a time while attempting marine pressure. i see planetary fortresses in naturals and 2 hellion openers that suciide into a spine and die to mass ling. i see a zerg that seeing sentry/chargelot and says on zergling infestor and then bm's when he losses! i see this same zerg burrow baneling mines and infestors on creep where terran will almost certainly scan!

and these are all players that are platinum league, higher than you. These players do things that make no sense whatsoever to me. Things that betray a complete misunderstanding of the dynamics of the game. I watch some of these games and most of the time, i can't tell you what is happening because i cant predict the irrational.

So you're going to sit there and tell me you're losing games in gold league because of an imbalanced unit? and appeal to a patch that changes almost no dynamics of zvt? I say again bullshit.

Im not trying to be elitist here because most of my games are alot of blind metagaming with better supply timing, i'm telling you that:
pylon blocking a zerg and then 4 gating does not make sense.
2raxing with double techlab and one research at a time does not make sense
burrowing units beside creep tumours does not make sense

and these things are all frightfully common where you currently are. I challenge you to post an example replay of you losing 'because of infestors' where stuff like the above doesn't happen.

--
here's a question for you.
two nights ago during gaf night i played wedge who is just slightly higher than you on the ladder. At the end of the game, I won with infestor/broodlord. i had 18 more apm than him. go watch it and tell me why wedge lost.
starts at 45minutes:
http://www.twitch.tv/corran666/b/293968035

corran bet on wedge! he of little faith. :p
 
Jeff-DSA said:
The fact that Infestors are getting a nerf is telling enough. It's a fact that Infestors are overpowered as they are right now.

I think Panda has covered this adequetly. There is no way at your level (or mine or probably pandas) that you're losing because of balance.

Also the nerf infestors are getting isn't really that massive. If you're struggling against them as much as you say then you will struggle with them post patch.

If you truly want to make the claim that you are losing because of OP infestors how about you post a replay? Maybe you could actually get some help instead of just screaming imba.
 

MrKnives

Member
I agree. If someone is going to go and claim something is OP and he is losing to that he should post a replay of a game he thinks that's most obvious example of that unit being OP.
 

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
Q8D3vil said:
good to know that the only way to win in shattered temple close position is double bunker rush the ramp
you know how people said you cant do the milkyway ramp block trick on shattered?
c5R32.jpg


they lied.
 
Awesome Animals said:
Where is SlayerS_Eve?

EDIT: And I know more about balance than all of you, and I'm only Silver, so you can all STFU.

Knowing about balance and blaming balance for your losses are two different things. I think you'll agree that balance really only matters the the top echelon of play and for 99% of people "get better" is more important than balance.
 
ShallNoiseUpon said:
Knowing about balance and blaming balance for your losses are two different things. I think you'll agree that balance really only matters the the top echelon of play and for 99% of people "get better" is more important than balance.

I was mostly just being sarcastic. I forgot that is a hard thing to do through the interwebz. But yea, I do agree with you more or less. I think balance issues can be different things at different levels though, but that doesn't mean I think Blizzard needs to nerf any units, or buff any units, etc, to make each league balanced.

But Blue flames should one shot kill all tier one units, and Thors should pretty much be invincible.
 

ElyrionX

Member
Newbie here. Just a quick question, been playing and reading and playing and reading even more. WHen people say hellion drops, do they mean rushing the hellion straight into the supply line via the ramp? Does that mean that drops refer to all kinds of surprise attacks and not just those involving air transports?
 

Keikaku

Member
Jeff-DSA said:
Prove to you that I've lost games because of Infestors? How am I supposed to do that? Screen capture a bunch of matches? Upload a bunch of replays? It's not worth the time to debate a point that I already know I'm right about. I've lost many games because of Infestors and that ridiculous root effect that fungal has.

I'm sorry if you don't think the counter to everything unit isn't responsible for changing matches. It kind of confuses me that you wouldn't expect it to be doing so.
Jeff, you're completely in the wrong here. Infestors are as much a "counter-to-everything" unit as High Templars are. If I don't EMP both, then I'm the guy at fault.

Additionally, Infestors gain max utility when combined with either mass, mass lings or Brood Lord either of which I, as Terran, should be able to scout fairly easily. Scans are impossible to counter :3
Pandaman said:
blizzard has to keep terran down to give the rest of us a fighting chance vs you awesome.
:3
SGnBn.jpg
 

Keikaku

Member
ElyrionX said:
Newbie here. Just a quick question, been playing and reading and playing and reading even more. WHen people say hellion drops, do they mean rushing the hellion straight into the supply line via the ramp? Does that mean that drops refer to all kinds of surprise attacks and not just those involving air transports?
Nope. If they say "Hellion drop", it usually means dropping Hellions out of Medivacs right into the mineral line.
 

Keikaku

Member
ElyrionX said:
Interesting. How important is the blue flame upgrade for this?
Pretty important in that the damage output will result in a lot more roasted workers. You may be slightly later with the drop given that you have to research the BF upgrade which takes about 2 in-game minutes. Overall though, it may not matter too much, especially on larger maps.
 

WedgeX

Banned
Pandaman said:
--
here's a question for you.
two nights ago during gaf night i played wedge who is just slightly higher than you on the ladder. At the end of the game, I won with infestor/broodlord. i had 18 more apm than him. go watch it and tell me why wedge lost.
starts at 45minutes:
http://www.twitch.tv/corran666/b/293968035

corran bet on wedge! he of little faith. :p

I just got used in a discussion about balance?

I'm speechless.

Also, poor bunched up marines against banelings :(((
 

TheCrow

Member
Sliver said:
Is there a thread for Project A with Yellow? MKP was on today for christ's sake!
I'm waiting until the series is over so I can just watch it all in one sitting. Have they said how long the show will run?
 

HolyCheck

I want a tag give me a tag
TheCrow said:
I'm waiting until the series is over so I can just watch it all in one sitting. Have they said how long the show will run?
given that the premise of the show is to train yellow for the upcoming GSL qualies, that are next weekend.. the same day (saturday) the next episode airs.. I'd just watch them all on friday:)
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
ShallNoiseUpon said:
Wait, Jeff-DSA is gold? Holy shit. Dude shut up about balance level your game up.

I can't ladder 4 hours a day, sorry. I get maybe, MAYBE 2 hours if I stay up real late. Having a kid, a wife, and job that often has me doing work late, I get 1 or 2 matches in a day at best. Rare nights I get to play 4-5. Not only that, I play more 2v2s than anything since when I do play I prefer to play with my friend. I could easily get up and out of Gold with more time.

And I think you guys missed what I was saying earlier. I said I've been losing to a composition issue. Infestors are the common element in the composition issue. In a composition, Infestors are indeed the counter to everything. They're powerful against mech, bio, and air. I can't think of any other unit that is even remotely as versatile when given some basic support around it.
 
Jeff-DSA said:
I can't ladder 4 hours a day, sorry. I get maybe, MAYBE 2 hours if I stay up real late. Having a kid, a wife, and job that often has me doing work late, I get 1 or 2 matches in a day at best. Rare nights I get to play 4-5. Not only that, I play more 2v2s than anything since when I do play I prefer to play with my friend. I could easily get up and out of Gold with more time.

And I think you guys missed what I was saying earlier. I said I've been losing to a composition issue. Infestors are the common element in the composition issue. In a composition, Infestors are indeed the counter to everything. They're powerful against mech, bio, and air. I can't think of any other unit that is even remotely as versatile when given some basic support around it.

The Marine?
 

Q8D3vil

Member
you know how people said you cant do the milkyway ramp block trick on shattered?
i ran out of options, i can't seems to be able to deal with zerg when the game go longer than 10 minutes because its harder to push when there is creep in your base so i decided to end it while i can with 2 rax and mech it up.
 
Well said, Panda. I'll never understand gold/platinum etc. level players claiming that balance is having an affect on their ability to win or lose a game. There are SO many factors that go into the success of matches at our level. I can think of a million reasons why I lose some games and balance is never something to complain about at my level.

I think it can certainly contribute in some cases, but if you were already going to lose a game because you've fucked up on so many other things, it's a moot point. The mechanics of the game are much deeper than "unit A beats unit B." Low-mid level players tend to get so stuck on it and it really prevents you from being able to clearly see your faults and how you can improve.
 

BigAT

Member
Jeff-DSA said:
I can't ladder 4 hours a day, sorry. I get maybe, MAYBE 2 hours if I stay up real late. Having a kid, a wife, and job that often has me doing work late, I get 1 or 2 matches in a day at best. Rare nights I get to play 4-5. Not only that, I play more 2v2s than anything since when I do play I prefer to play with my friend. I could easily get up and out of Gold with more time.

And I think you guys missed what I was saying earlier. I said I've been losing to a composition issue. Infestors are the common element in the composition issue. In a composition, Infestors are indeed the counter to everything. They're powerful against mech, bio, and air. I can't think of any other unit that is even remotely as versatile when given some basic support around it.
leg3ghosts.jpg
 

Keikaku

Member
Jeff-DSA said:
I can't ladder 4 hours a day, sorry. I get maybe, MAYBE 2 hours if I stay up real late. Having a kid, a wife, and job that often has me doing work late, I get 1 or 2 matches in a day at best. Rare nights I get to play 4-5. Not only that, I play more 2v2s than anything since when I do play I prefer to play with my friend. I could easily get up and out of Gold with more time.

And I think you guys missed what I was saying earlier. I said I've been losing to a composition issue. Infestors are the common element in the composition issue. In a composition, Infestors are indeed the counter to everything. They're powerful against mech, bio, and air. I can't think of any other unit that is even remotely as versatile when given some basic support around it.
Anything below Masters and people lose due to issues of timing and macro. Composition is a distant, distant 3rd.

Like I said earlier, Infestor's are as much a "counter to everything" as HT's are. They have as many spells and where Infestors have the root effect, HT's hit for twice as much damage. Additionally, HT's can also merge to create one of the best melee tanking units in the game and it comes with splash damage so . . . . If you see the tech out on the field and you don't get Ghosts and get the EMPs off, then it's your fault. Infestor's without energy are worthless supply hogs and do nothing for the Zerg army. Without Infestors, you should roll over the rest of their army really easily.
 

Q8D3vil

Member
Keikaku
problem with infestors is the chain fungals not the damage.
as panda said, nothing will change with the next patch so just suck it up and play if you are a terran and pray they don't go infestors.
 

Keikaku

Member
Q8D3vil said:
Keikaku
problem with infestors is the chain fungals not the damage.
as panda said, nothing will change with the next patch so just suck it up and play if you are a terran and pray they don't go infestors.
Chain fungals do suck. I still maintain that EMPs are the answer, especially since they have one additional range and can come from a cloaked unit.

On another note, here is Prime watching (and going apeshit) over Fenix's victory
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG6ybAbmc8c

EDIT: This is a proposed documentary from one of Tasteless' friends about Tastosis. Last night, it was at around $2000. After a post on TeamLiquid and SC2 Reddit: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1751892223/the-sons-of-starcraft
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
Keikaku said:
Anything below Masters and people lose due to issues of timing and macro. Composition is a distant, distant 3rd.

So you're saying that I can win by going straight MMM even if my opponent is going Zergling/Baneling and transitions into Zergling/Infestor if I simply macro better? That's the claim? I just don't buy that. I thought I had to get Ghosts out, now I'm hearing I just need to beat them on the macro game.

What is it, GAF, because if it's honestly one or the other, I can focus on that. I don't see any compelling reasons to believe it's only macro, however.
 

Q8D3vil

Member
Chain fungals do suck. I still maintain that EMPs are the answer, especially since they have one additional range and can come from a cloaked unit.
i need to get 3 bases running until i can get ghosts :/
but yeah emps are good if you have the money for ghost.
best answer so far is 2 base tanks into 3 base ghost ( 2 or 3 are good ).
 
Jeff-DSA said:
So you're saying that I can win by going straight MMM even if my opponent is going Zergling/Baneling and transitions into Zergling/Infestor if I simply macro better? That's the claim? I just don't buy that. I thought I had to get Ghosts out, now I'm hearing I just need to beat them on the macro game.

What is it, GAF, because if it's honestly one or the other, I can focus on that. I don't see any compelling reasons to believe it's only macro, however.

If you really think that, then that's why you're losing games. It's not just one thing or the other, it's everything. To consistently win games you need to play as perfectly as you can every time. Having a shittier army composition can be the reason that you lose a game, but that's not because of imbalance. It's because of not scouting the opponent to see what composition they're going, not having the correct timing to defend or push an attack, not spending resources effectively based on the build that you and/or your opponent are going with, etc.

If you see your opponent going ling/baneling and transitioning to infestor, and you still go straight MMM, then you deserve to lose if he overpowers you. That's not because the units/composition he went with is imbalanced, it's because you didn't think to go for a more effective composition to oppose his build, or you didn't take steps to delay/prevent him from getting his pushes out in a timely fashion.
 

Keikaku

Member
Jeff-DSA said:
So you're saying that I can win by going straight MMM even if my opponent is going Zergling/Baneling and transitions into Zergling/Infestor if I simply macro better? That's the claim? I just don't buy that. I thought I had to get Ghosts out, now I'm hearing I just need to beat them on the macro game.

What is it, GAF, because if it's honestly one or the other, I can focus on that. I don't see any compelling reasons to believe it's only macro, however.
Obviously composition is important but when I say "macro" I don't mean "make more of whatever you want faster than the opponent". No one does. Macro encompasses everything "big picture" you do to win the game: strategy, overall plan, build order, economy management. Composition is one aspect of macro and not as important as your economy management. If you want to go MMM, then you should know that you should be pressuring your opponent before he hits either Mutas or Infestors. You should be dropping, pressuring him, etc., etc. If you let the Spire or Infestation Pit come up, you should prepare for that.

I would argue that your composition is holding you back only when you can safely say that you planned and adapted your strategy to the opponent as necessary, you executed said strategy flawlessly, your econ management was perfect and you never, ever got supply blocked. From what you're saying, your argument seems to be "I let the Zerg get to Infestors in such a large quantity that they could fungal whatever army I had and win. Hence, Infestors OP." To me, that's a bullshit argument when you undoubtedly have far bigger holes in your overall game.

I'm a Gold League Terran and I too don't play more than 2-3 games a day. At most, I'll play 5-6. Every time I watch one of my replays, I see supply depots missed, SCVs not being built, scouting not being done, pressure not being applied and upgrades not being researched. I see places where I completely misread what the opponent is doing and attack timings that I whiffed. All of those hurt me more than just simply saying "Well he had Infestor's so, clearly, he was going to win." At my level, that has no effect. The supply depot that stops my push hurts me way more. The SCVs not being built slows down my econ. Those are far bigger in my opinion.

Honestly, I think you're missing the forest for the one tree that simply doesn't exist right now.

EDIT: PaiPaiMaster know's what's up.
DOUBLE EDIT: @Devil: I can agree with that. But once you have the Ghosts out . . . . :D
 
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