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STEAM | May 2015 - Paid Mods? We hardly Nuuvem!

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zkylon

zkylewd
well i tried to in ng and ng+ and wasn't gonna bother with a third rng because i couldn't hit the lizard in time, so that was left in like 95%

i also didnt get 100% in dark 1 cos i created the same weapon twice out of sif's soul and then didn't feel like beating the game in ng++ just to get an achievement

overall i wish the souls series did more interesting things with their achievements. on one hand i actualy kind of like it cos its another incentive to like appreciate all the content in the game, but some of them are so tedious.

like get all the weapons when there's like one that is only dropped in ng++

that's not fun

Would you rather the thread went back to discussing who's animu 'friends' are better? On second thoughts don't answer that.
?

a) im replying to his post so i don't know why you're implying i'm against discussing what he says. i just think it's dumb to complain about something that's free and easily available.
b) i don't know what "animu friends" even means

Our perceptions of value, even for stuff that is free, has the potential to be vastly different from one another. Why do you think frosty has a shit fit when someone comes in asking if 'is x worth y?'. How on earth are we to know what that persons idea of value is. For example I'm willing for drop £50 on a new AssCreed completely blind but others won't even bat an eyelid at -75% off fully well knowing the state of the game and the content included because they hold a different view on value than I do.
it's not even a discussion about value

he literally says "if you make content for the game then have it on the game"

maybe if you were on console i can understand but this is steam, so instead of one download it's two

it makes no freaking sense complaining about something that's free and easily available

what's the alternative? not add it to the game? delay the game?
 

KenOD

a kinder, gentler sort of Scrooge
no one reads my posts ... seriously ... *sigh*

I really should just stop posting altogether ... since apparently no one gives a rat's ass about any of the stuff I post ..... so why bother ....

I read your post. That's why I rushed to buy it, and then Steam wouldn't let me by constantly kicking me out of the cart and emptying it. Which made me question my will to live. Followed by a soothing voice asking me to place my best friend in an incinerator.
 

Arthea

Member
I think my point went straight over your head. I hope you're aware that a developer isn't a catch all jack-of-all-trades person who can do every single roll. There will be peeps who specialise in certain disciplines, some might be multi skilled but there will be points during development when say the character artist has no further work to do, the level planner has finished up all their tasks, character modellers and texture artists has completed their workload but these folks are still contracted employees. Their part in the production may be done, the work they completed was accounted for in the production budget but now they're still being paid to sit around doing sweet fa.

Let's see if I can sum this up in a really shitty analogy. Say if you order a meal at a restaurant, off the menu where you can see the contents of your meal and agree to pay the advertised price for the contents. Your meal what ever it is will take the chef 10 mins in prep, 5 mins to plate up and serve with an overlapping cook time of 25 mins for a total of 30 mins from start to finish. Now somewhere in that time for your meal to be brought to you the chef has approximately 10-15 mins of downtime whilst they wait for you meal to be cooked. Now they could prepare a couple of side dishes, sauces etc in their downtime so at no point in time are they sat twiddling their thumbs but this incurs further costs and ingredients not budgeted for in the meal you ordered and will pay for. Do you think any extra dishes the chef can prepare in the time it take to cook and serve you meal should be free also? Sure some restaurants will offer free accompaniments not specified on the menu for the a specific dish like bread, tables sauces, various seasoning items, even olives but more often than not extras are listed as a separate menu item at an additional cost pretty much in the way DLC is too. Like I said without knowing the cost, budget or workload of those involved it's really hard to make an informed judgement but hey we all value things differently. I just like to do so from a sense of perspective rather than lash out willy nilly because I don't like something (hahaha and I'm not saying you are either but others do).

Now I'm really fucking hungry.

I see your point, I understood it the first time, but if my work is anything to go by, there are no downtimes, and I don't believe there are such in development of games, unless you are sitting without a work and doing anything to go by as tri-Ace did for couple of years, for example. Your example isn't good one too, but it made you hungry, so it had its purpose.
What I mean, they don't hire some team to make dlcs, the team making the game still makes those. Unless I'm wrong here, not that I know for sure, but I always assumed that's the way it is done.

Huh? I always thought you were German (or Austrian/Swiss)...
I probably can speak better in Polish (even if I already forgot the language almost completely, due to not using it for a long time) than in German. I actually can say "I don't speak german" in german, according to my german friends so perfectly so that it sounds like mockery. Why do I need to know this? Because half of the world is bent on assuming I'm of german origin,
not even kidding!

No -50%? Maybe a regional thing.

or maybe you are having VIP discount, personally you, I mean. Wouldn't surprise me much, best customer and all that

no discount of any sort here too
 

zkylon

zkylewd
how is there no downtime

person that makes the concept art needs to finish their work before the modelers and animators and shit can take over

these people do a ton of their work during preproduction and production stages, but when it's just qa, polishing and finishing touches they have nothing to do

same goes for most artists and content makers

it takes time to hook shit up into a game, it's not like they can keep adding monsters to the game until the last day, there needs to be programmers that code the ai and level designers that hook them up with scripts and loot tables and shit and also qa testers that make sure everything's working properly. that takes weeks if not months

and once the game's gone gold on consoles you can't just add shit to the disk cos it's already going to printing or whatever. doesn't really apply 1:1 to pc but if a developer's looking for parity (which makes the most sense as you don't want to screw over any of your players) then it's just easier to release it as dlc

it's free

i don't get it
 

Jawmuncher

Member
how is there no downtime

person that makes the concept art needs to finish their work before the modelers and animators and shit can take over

these people do a ton of their work during preproduction and production stages, but when it's just qa, polishing and finishing touches they have nothing to do

Well not if there's DLC & sequel plans. They probably start right on that.
 

Arthea

Member
how is there no downtime

person that makes the concept art needs to finish their work before the modelers and animators and shit can take over

these people do a ton of their work during preproduction and production stages, but when it's just qa, polishing and finishing touches they have nothing to do
Work of animators never ends, like literally, no work is ever finished, that's simply law of nature.
also polishing doesn't count? You aren't telling me that concept artists do dlcs now, or do you?

There is no downtime, until proven otherwise.
 

zkylon

zkylewd
Well not if there's DLC & sequel plans. They probably start right on that.
exactly

it's the same as wasteland 2 and torment

there's no point in having half your staff doing nothing or being forced to work on stuff that you must give away only because it's produced in the middle of another game's development

so you put them to work on something else and sell that too

Work of animators never ends, like literally, no work is ever finished, that's simply law of nature.
also polishing doesn't count? You aren't telling me that concept artists do dlcs now, or do you?

There is no downtime, until proven otherwise.
oh yeah animators keep working, and lots of artists do too, just not as many as they did during production since it's polishing/bugfixing after the game goes gold. the rest of them move on to working on other shit/get fired (thanks vg industry!)

concept artists work on dlc by making the concept art for the dlc. i don't know why you don't think that's normal?

also videgames is a business so work is eventually finished because it's just losing money to keep working on it, again i don't understand what you're trying to say with that law of nature shit
 

Dr Dogg

Member
?

a) im replying to his post so i don't know why you're implying i'm against discussing what he says. i just think it's dumb to complain about something that's free and easily available.
b) i don't know what "animu friends" even means

Hahaha oh come on we're on a discussion forum not a private isolated conservations between one another. You put your thoughts out there not addressing anyone, how do i know who you're talking to.

Also look back the past 2 or 3 pages where the talk was anything but games releated let alone Steam related. At least this topic of conversation is in fitting with the thread's purpose (well sort of).

it's not even a discussion about value

he literally says "if you make content for the game then have it on the game"

maybe if you were on console i can understand but this is steam, so instead of one download it's two

it makes no freaking sense complaining about something that's free and easily available

what's the alternative? not add it to the game? delay the game?

Sorry I should have really expanded upon this Well value isn't just judged by a monetary metric. Time for instances is something you can gauge as value as also someone's opinion. I mean do you value my opinion worth the time to reply to me? This was kind of what I was on about when I brought this topic up that I just don't see any value in The Witcher III DLC's, regardless that they are free as they add little to the game for me and more than likely will not all be available by the time I finish the game and probably not worth the time investment to return to the game for the amount and/or type of content they offer. Cost is kind of irrelevant as I would prefer them to be available from the off rather than slowly drip fed over the course of a couple of months. I understand why that is, more than likely to keep some folks from selling the game by offering support, but I feel like this is the wrong kind of game to use that approach.

I see your point, I understood it the first time, but if my work is anything to go by, there are no downtimes, and I don't believe there are such in development of games, unless you are sitting without a work and doing anything to go by as tri-Ace did for couple of years, for example. Your example isn't good one too, but it made you hungry, so it had its purpose.
What I mean, they don't hire some team to make dlcs, the team making the game still makes those. Unless I'm wrong here, not that I know for sure, but I always assumed that's the way it is done.]

Hahaha but that's just guess what developers are up to without really knowing their workload. I don't have a clue what the day to day goings on are for pretty much any developer who worked on a game ever but do understand from my own experiences in various creative roles and environment, especially on collaborative projects, that you will at some point be waiting on another department, staff member or client to finish their role on the work you are doing to progress. For example as I type this now I'm waiting on approval of copy from a client and the moment I get that back I have to send this to compliance and legal to get signed off before it can be cleared for print. Now I could sit around doing nothing and just post on GAF until this lands back on my desk to carry on with work or I could be proactive and pick up some other non scheduled work. Hahaha granted I have mainly gone for the first option as lunch is right around the corner and it's at the low point of the week workwise.
 

zkylon

zkylewd
Hahaha oh come on we're on a discussion forum not a private isolated conservations between one another. You put your thoughts out there not addressing anyone, how do i know who you're talking to.

Also look back the past 2 or 3 pages where the talk was anything but games releated let alone Steam related. At least this topic of conversation is in fitting with the thread's purpose (well sort of).
i mean i don't mind talking about this im just gonna say what i think and i just think it's dumb to complain about free shit only because it's not part of the big download

Sorry I should have really expanded upon this Well value isn't just judged by a monetary metric. Time for instances is something you can gauge as value as also someone's opinion. I mean do you value my opinion worth the time to reply to me? This was kind of what I was on about when I brought this topic up that I just don't see any value in The Witcher III DLC's, regardless that they are free as they add little to the game for me and more than likely will not all be available by the time I finish the game and probably not worth the time investment to return to the game for the amount and/or type of content they offer. Cost is kind of irrelevant as I would prefer them to be available from the off rather than slowly drip fed over the course of a couple of months. I understand why that is, more than likely to keep some folks from selling the game by offering support, but I feel like this is the wrong kind of game to use that approach.

but he's talking about day 1 dlc. free day 1 dlc on a digital download game. i don't know, to me that's just super silly

the drip feeding stuff is kind of shit so i can agree with not liking it, but again it's not a value issue unless you're exchanging something for it (be it time, money, cookies). if it's like a free optional outfit for yennefer then i can't really say that's "complainable". you can obviously say "it's not for me" or "i don't enjoy the release schedule", but i don't think you can give cdpr shit for that

also i just find suikoder's attitude about it annoying, sounds really entitled

sorry
 

titch

Member
just wanted to keep everyone in the loop.

Jeeze take care m8 - hopefully you will get the stress levels down and don't worry about anyone else but you and your own.

Isn't there anything any of us can do to help out - maybe by fielding emails or something?

Just a thought!!
 

The_Super_Inframan

"the journey to a thousand games ends with bad rats. ~Lao Tzu" ~Gabe Newell
do usb microphones exist

third mic i try and they either break or stop working or whatever and this is like less than a month old

im thinking the like slot thing might be busted


I'm using this as my USB mic (and for head tracking purposes in Elite Dangerous)

eFAlMTl.jpg


The micro works really great (more than good enough for voice chat) and you can get them for really, really cheap. I bought three of them for like 20€ :p

You can get PC drivers for them here

https://codelaboratories.com/products/eye/driver/
 

zkylon

zkylewd
I'm using this as my USB mic (and for head tracking purposes in Elite Dangerous)

eFAlMTl.jpg


The micro works really great (more than good enough for voice chat) and you can get them for really, really cheap. I bought three of them for like 20€ :p

You can get PC drivers for them here

https://codelaboratories.com/products/eye/driver/

not a bad idea but they're 60 usd here so not really the price point im hoping for

not sure what to do, if all my mics keep breaking i'm guessing it must be something wrong with my computer?
 

dex3108

Member
First try. I am not feeling it yet but i just started XD Colors are nice for both dark and light GAF theme, it works ok with any screen size and it look ok, colors i used are complementary etc. I just don't think it is functional enough.

Xcvny4V.png
zf1mhJj.png
YIsTzKC.png


ZYmJGeM.png
qUbP96e.png
Avvg001.png
 

The_Super_Inframan

"the journey to a thousand games ends with bad rats. ~Lao Tzu" ~Gabe Newell
not a bad idea but they're 60 usd here so not really the price point im hoping for

not sure what to do, if all my mics keep breaking i'm guessing it must be something wrong with my computer?

May I ask where you live?

These cameras are really cheap on the different Amazons

http://www.amazon.com/Sony-PlayStation-Camera-Bulk-Packaging-Pc/dp/B0072I2240/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1432726415&sr=8-2&keywords=ps3+eye

http://www.amazon.de/Sony-9473459-PLAYSTATION-Eye/dp/B000W3YQ1Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1432726549&sr=8-1&keywords=ps3+eye
 
Having an issue with using my gamepad, was wondering if anyone here has encountered this before

Basically, Steam and the games I start will recognize there's a gamepad (prompts will change to recognize that), but the games don't respond to the controller. I'm using SCP and a Dualshock 3

It's especially annoying because I played Shadow of Mordor for 4 hours yesterday with the gamepad and it worked fine and now it's not for some reason.
 

Jawmuncher

Member
Having an issue with using my gamepad, was wondering if anyone here has encountered this before

Basically, Steam and the games I start will recognize there's a gamepad (prompts will change to recognize that), but the games don't respond to the controller

It's especially annoying because I played Shadow of Mordor for 4 hours yesterday with the gamepad and it worked fine and now it's not for some reason.

What pad are you using? Are you also on Big Picture mode?
 

zkylon

zkylewd
First try. I am not feeling it yet but i just started XD Colors are nice for both dark and light GAF theme, it works ok with any screen size and it look ok, colors i used are complementary etc. I just don't think it is functional enough.

Xcvny4V.png
zf1mhJj.png
YIsTzKC.png


ZYmJGeM.png
qUbP96e.png
Avvg001.png

not sparkly enough


argentina

importing shit is very difficult here because everything gets heavily taxed
 

Arthea

Member
I really like a new groupees update, one informing that new keys are added. It would be so nice if all bundle sellers did that, except lazy guys, sending e-mail is good enough already.

edited: how am I suddenly a bad guy? It's Doggie that started this talk in the first place, just reminding
 

Dr Dogg

Member
Well looks like FIFA is in the shit but mustn't talk about football.

i mean i don't mind talking about this im just gonna say what i think and i just think it's dumb to complain about free shit only because it's not part of the big download

but he's talking about day 1 dlc. free day 1 dlc on a digital download game. i don't know, to me that's just super silly

the drip feeding stuff is kind of shit so i can agree with not liking it, but again it's not a value issue unless you're exchanging something for it (be it time, money, cookies). if it's like a free optional outfit for yennefer then i can't really say that's "complainable". you can obviously say "it's not for me" or "i don't enjoy the release schedule", but i don't think you can give cdpr shit for that

also i just find suikoder's attitude about it annoying, sounds really entitled

sorry

Oh I totally get what you are saying. Shit's free, you bought the game so you've bought the DLC also. Plus I have no idea if the content is made or not but chances are due to not being announced properly CDPR are still working on it so yet again like you say if it was to be included in the base game what are they to do? Delay it for a third time? That's not happening at all and it's quite clear as a nuget to keep console folks from selling the game on for a couple of months to potentially limit secondhand copies and may catch a few into buying the Season Pass which might be a lot nearer release when the DLC campaign has finished.

My gripe though is how much worth is this content going to have, as in my time to go play this content or ignore it and carry on with the main game. Sleeping Dogs did a progressive DLC plan that all bar the preorder content was made after the game shipped. Now while it was paid DLC I felt that the value, in terms of the contents of the DLC and my time investment and not money at all, was greater than the few bits of Witcher III DLC as it was very well planned out. You had various packs which were either new outfits or vehicles for Wei which bosted his stats as well as gave a different look, plus they got the community involved to make choices on what to offer. This was supplemented by 3 larger story based packs spread evenly through the release scedule so there was always something worth coming back for. But the big plus was that it didn't matter if you had finished the game already or were just starting out as every bit of DLC was usable at any given time.

Now there's only a few bit of Witcher DLC to go by but I have an inkling it's going to be mostly situation dependent. So the first 2 bits were an amour set and a new hair do and beard style. While the later can be used at any time the armour has a defined limit on use. It's available at the starting area and has quite good stats up to about level 8 when you start to find better gear but if you never bothered to look at the merchants inventory until much later then it's use might be worthless. This could be the same with the other content that came out today as one if a different look for Yenifer but you could be past or way before a part in the game when she's available. While the other is a Witcher Contract that could be either too challenging or a walkover for the level you're at or in an area you have long since finished with. As time goes on people are going to be at varying stages of progress through the game so will be interesting to see what the content is like and how accessible it is for peeps regards to their current point in the game when the content launches. So it probably will be great on a subsequent playthrough when it's all out but not everyone is going to finish it once let alone twice.
 

The_Super_Inframan

"the journey to a thousand games ends with bad rats. ~Lao Tzu" ~Gabe Newell
argentina

importing shit is very difficult here because everything gets heavily taxed

I see...

Do you still need to pay taxes if I would send you one as a "gift"?

But even if not, I just checked and the shipping cost would be ~16€, twice the price of the camera itself... still much less than 60$ :p
 
I see...

Do you still need to pay taxes if I would send you one as a "gift"?

But even if not, I just checked and the shipping cost would be ~16€, twice the price of the camera itself... still much less than 60$ :p

We pay taxes on everything (50% of the value of product+shipping) and we need to fill out a form and stuff like that. There's also the chance that some not so nice customs office employees steal the stuff.
 

derExperte

Member
https://www.indiegala.com/mayhem

Divekick (STEAM) + TRADING CARDS
Knock-knock (STEAM) + TRADING CARDS
Qbeh-1: The Atlas Cube (STEAM) + TRADING CARDS
FortressCraft Evolved! (STEAM) + TRADING CARDS
Vessel (STEAM)
Return NULL - Episode 1 (STEAM)
NaissanceE (STEAM)
Viscera Cleanup Detail: Santa's Rampage (STEAM)
 

Lain

Member
I really like a new groupees update, one informing that new keys are added. It would be so nice if all bundle sellers did that, except lazy guys, sending e-mail is good enough already.

edited: how am I suddenly a bad guy? It's Doggie that started this talk in the first place, just reminding

Yeah I like that update to Groupees too.

Also don't worry, we know Doggie is the real bad guy. After all, he's behind the CA avatars.
 

derExperte

Member
Excellent bundle and I feel obligated to point out that Vessel is fucking awesome.

Is Super Hot still coming in June? Haven't heard anything lately.
 

Dr Dogg

Member
edited: how am I suddenly a bad guy? It's Doggie that started this talk in the first place, just reminding

Hey I respect your opinion just as I respect zykon's or anybody else onion that happens to post in here. Though I don't have to necessarily agree with it and provided I'm not being dismissive with out clarifying my stance I don't think that's out of order. I mean it's not a case of who's right and who's wrong, neither is.

Also don't worry, we know Doggie is the real bad guy. After all, he's behind the CA avatars.

Yes I'm the moustache twiddling villain of the Steam Thread terrorising you all from the rafters like some second rate Phantom of the Opera :p
 

Arthea

Member
Excellent bundle and I feel obligated to point out that Vessel is fucking awesome.

Is Super Hot still coming in June? Haven't heard anything lately.

It is? I think I have it, tell me more

edited: I haven't played it, have I?

Hey I respect your opinion just as I respect zykon's or anybody else onion that happens to post in here. Though I don't have to necessarily agree with it and provided I'm not being dismissive with out clarifying my stance I don't think that's out of order. I mean it's not a case of who's right and who's wrong, neither is.

Yes I'm the moustache twiddling villain of the Steam Thread terrorising you all from the rafters like some second rate Phantom of the Opera :p

I would post a pic, but it's pointless with minus it seems, so I'll just say, that's exactly how we imagine you down to moustache twiddling thing! You CA avatar can't fool anyone!
 

zkylon

zkylewd
Well looks like FIFA is in the shit but mustn't talk about football.



Oh I totally get what you are saying. Shit's free, you bought the game so you've bought the DLC also. Plus I have no idea if the content is made or not but chances are due to not being announced properly CDPR are still working on it so yet again like you say if it was to be included in the base game what are they to do? Delay it for a third time? That's not happening at all and it's quite clear as a nuget to keep console folks from selling the game on for a couple of months to potentially limit secondhand copies and may catch a few into buying the Season Pass which might be a lot nearer release when the DLC campaign has finished.

My gripe though is how much worth is this content going to have, as in my time to go play this content or ignore it and carry on with the main game. Sleeping Dogs did a progressive DLC plan that all bar the preorder content was made after the game shipped. Now while it was paid DLC I felt that the value, in terms of the contents of the DLC and my time investment and not money at all, was greater than the few bits of Witcher III DLC as it was very well planned out. You had various packs which were either new outfits or vehicles for Wei which bosted his stats as well as gave a different look, plus they got the community involved to make choices on what to offer. This was supplemented by 3 larger story based packs spread evenly through the release scedule so there was always something worth coming back for. But the big plus was that it didn't matter if you had finished the game already or were just starting out as every bit of DLC was usable at any given time.

Now there's only a few bit of Witcher DLC to go by but I have an inkling it's going to be mostly situation dependent. So the first 2 bits were an amour set and a new hair do and beard style. While the later can be used at any time the armour has a defined limit on use. It's available at the starting area and has quite good stats up to about level 8 when you start to find better gear but if you never bothered to look at the merchants inventory until much later then it's use might be worthless. This could be the same with the other content that came out today as one if a different look for Yenifer but you could be past or way before a part in the game when she's available. While the other is a Witcher Contract that could be either too challenging or a walkover for the level you're at or in an area you have long since finished with. As time goes on people are going to be at varying stages of progress through the game so will be interesting to see what the content is like and how accessible it is for peeps regards to their current point in the game when the content launches. So it probably will be great on a subsequent playthrough when it's all out but not everyone is going to finish it once let alone twice.
i see what you mean and i can relate

i found something similar happen to me with dark souls 2

essentially the issue was that the dlc added high difficulty areas in a game that if you don't play for a while you get awfully rusty

so you load up your old save and try it and just get shit on by everything because you suck out of not playing the game for a couple months

ended up starting a new character to get reaccostumed to the game

on the other side would be new vegas, which had carefully paced dlc that just felt super great to experience over many months since one dlc would set up mysteries to be answered in the others

so yea i don't know how witcha3's gonna be, but definitely the "delivery" of the dlc is not something to be handled loosely. witcha3 being kind of open world i feel like that's not gonna be that much of a problem, tho?

tho i haven't played the game so i can't say if it's segmented into chapters like the other games or if it's switching locations or whatever

I see...

Do you still need to pay taxes if I would send you one as a "gift"?

But even if not, I just checked and the shipping cost would be ~16€, twice the price of the camera itself... still much less than 60$ :p

not sure but there are taxes to be payed for every usd transaction (35%) so all the prices for everything are just higher

i guess i could try a cheap webcam and see how that works. i was gonna do that as per another gaffer's suggestion but i changed my mind when i lost the use i had for eet

but i duno, if my like mic "port" or whatever is broken then i guess that's a decent-ish alternative?

using skype on my shitty cellphone is just too painful

edit: thank you for your kind offer tho. just kind of over my budget.

i would love knowing wtf is wrong with my mics tho
 

titch

Member
https://www.indiegala.com/mayhem

Divekick (STEAM) + TRADING CARDS
Knock-knock (STEAM) + TRADING CARDS
Qbeh-1: The Atlas Cube (STEAM) + TRADING CARDS
FortressCraft Evolved! (STEAM) + TRADING CARDS
Vessel (STEAM)
Return NULL - Episode 1 (STEAM)
NaissanceE (STEAM)
Viscera Cleanup Detail: Santa's Rampage (STEAM)

Sweet a decent bundle and only one not a +1

I just noticed that Experte omitted $1 tier, there are two more games in that bundle

Rooks Keep (STEAM) + TRADING CARDS
Terrian Saga: KR-17 (STEAM) + TRADING CARDS

Just saw that so not quite as sweet at $3.99 as both those will go in a giveaway sometime as I have them both - oh well still worth getting a few wl games
 

Arthea

Member
I just noticed that Experte omitted $1 tier, there are two more games in that bundle

Rooks Keep (STEAM) + TRADING CARDS
Terrian Saga: KR-17 (STEAM) + TRADING CARDS
 
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