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Street Fighter V |OTVIII| New Delayed Generation - Controversial Inputs

E

ElFly

Member
sixghost said:
So how does Zangief beat Dhalsim? I never played this matchup before today but it seems basically impossible if the Dhalsim can anti-air properly.
Click to expand...

it is p hard, yeah

basically, gotta use v-skill to advance and get near. gotta learn which normals trade with dhalsims. theoretically you could grab dhalsim's standing roundhouse with gief's new move, but that will still leave you far away so it is hard to recommend
 
M

Mizerman

Member
Nephtes said:
This is mind boggling to me that anyone could say that.

Street Fighter's story is such an easy fix.
The answer is right in Capcom's face and they're too stupid to leverage it.

Look at all the pre-SFV hype Capcom put out.
It was all about the thrill of the fight and the competition (centered around E-sports). People tuned in to EVO in the hundreds of thousands not to watch some stupid anime about fighters banded together to take on a super villain moon base plot ... They tuned in to watch competition between the best SFV players in the world to see who is the best.

Street Fighter needs to dump the attempts to outdo the 1990s live action movie camp and needs to present Street Fighter's story as one of competition between fighters to see who is the best.

This is why the Mortal Kombat movie worked and the Street Fighter one did not. Mortal Kombat was about saving the world at the high level, but at its core it was about a tournament.

Realign Street Fighter's story around that of a tournament. One where there are multiple a year (kind of like the Capcom Pro Tour). Each character in this vein could tell a story of them winning one of those tournaments. Tournaments hosted by SIN or Shadowloo or the Illuminati or whoever... But at it's core.. the game's story would be widely more effective if it mimiced a tournament.

More Bloodsport or Enter the Dragon... Less... Saturday Morning Cartoon.
Click to expand...

1. Not every story needs to be gritty to be considered "good" much in the same vein that anything campy considered is "bad."
2. MK stopped being about the pure tournaments long ago. Both original and reboot. It has embraced the "saving the world" aspect ever since MK3. They'll bring back the tournament aspect if it's convenient, but the saving the world will always take priority. Same with KOF, SF, Tekken and even VF.

Hyun Sai said:
A story doesnt need a big budget to be fixed. It just needs a decent writer.
Click to expand...

True. Which is why I was disappointed with Tekken 7's effort. I mean, I've been disappointed with its story for years now. I wish it returned to T4's style.
 
T

Turbanator

Member
They should model a game's story like 1:1 after an irl SF tournament.

CapCup 2015 and EVO 2017 are great contenders.

Skilletor said:
What do we bitch about now that the nostalgia outfits are coming?
Click to expand...
25309-324-1-jpg.jpg
 
N

Nephtes

Member
Mizerman said:
1. Not every story needs to be gritty to be considered "good" much in the same vein that anything campy considered is "bad."
2. MK stopped being about the pure tournaments long ago. Both original and reboot. It has embraced the "saving the world" aspect ever since MK3. They'll bring back the tournament aspect if it's convenient, but the saving the world will always take priority. Same with KOF, SF, Tekken and even VF.
Click to expand...

No one said "gritty", I certainly didn't.
But it does need to be about the spirit of competition at its core.

Street Fighter's "saving the world" story has gone way overboard. It's not even really silly any more, it's just sad.

There's a way to keep it light hearted and not going too bleak or coming close to something like Mortal Kombat whilst not being embarrassing to watch...
 
L

Lulubop

Member
The should make a story mode lack the old smackdown story modes. Create a character, compete at tournament, money matches, side, socialize with Justin Wong, get jumped by Mankind in a boileroom
 
P

Pompadour

Member
Instead of doing a "Cinematic Story Mode" they should just bring back Arcade Mode and add a few extra cutscenes between fights using the money they saved not making a boring, 4 hour game mode that you rarely get to actually "play".

When you boot the game up a prompt will ask you if you like Story Modes or Arcade Modes better in fighting games. Whatever you pick will be the permanent name of this mode.
 
M

mbpm1

Member
I agree with nephtes. All they have to do to make a good story is just cannibalize some of our own fgc tournament history, take some shonen ideas, and mix for a decent story mode.

Also agree with the person above on tekken. Why did tag 2 have way better endings for like 53 characters than t7 could manage with like 4 in its story mode? Like each character got their own story in their own style that represented them well.

Weird
 
N

Nephtes

Member
Pompadour said:
Instead of doing a "Cinematic Story Mode" they should just bring back Arcade Mode and add a few extra cutscenes between fights using the money they saved not making a boring, 4 hour game mode that you rarely get to actually "play".

When you boot the game up a prompt will ask you if you like Story Modes or Arcade Modes better in fighting games. Whatever you pick will be the permanent name of this mode.
Click to expand...


^this would be okay too...

But also the cutscenes should be written by someone capable of tying their shoes (whoever wrote current story mode is clearly incapable of this feat).
 
M

MCD250

Member
One of the first FANGs I ever fought, I almost lost because I kept cracking up. This dude would spam the slide and hearing FANG constantly making that NYAAAAAAAGH sound kept making me laugh.
 
M

Mizerman

Member
Nephtes said:
No one said "gritty", I certainly didn't.
But it does need to be about the spirit of competition at its core.

Street Fighter's "saving the world" story has gone way overboard. It's not even really silly any more, it's just sad.

There's a way to keep it light hearted and not going too bleak or coming close to something like Mortal Kombat whilst not being embarrassing to watch...
Click to expand...

I just want better writing, period. It being light hearted or dark means nothing to me if it's not enjoyable to me.

Pompadour said:
Arcade Mode, probably.

Man, it just dawned on me that if we get Arcade Mode they'll just start bitching about Extra Battle.
Click to expand...

It'll be something else to bitch about. There is always something to bitch about.

Lulubop said:
The should make a story mode lack the old smackdown story modes. Create a character, compete at tournament, money matches, side, socialize with Justin Wong, get jumped by Mankind in a boileroom
Click to expand...

Narrated by J.R.

mbpm1 said:
Also agree with the person above on tekken. Why did tag 2 have way better endings for like 53 characters than t7 could manage with like 4 in its story mode? Like each character got their own story in their own style that represented them well.

Weird
Click to expand...

Tekken 7's cinematic story kinda pissed me off. They were working on this game for a few years, and that was the effort to show for it?

To say nothing of the "character stories" as well. You thought SFV's character stories were a waste of time, Tekken 7's went "hold my beer" and showed the correct way of doing it wrong.
 
T

TheSpoiler

Member
Fighting game stories are blowups because making something cohesive is difficult. Tekken failed on a plot aspect because it had years of plot points to cover and didn't address many of them at all. It's better that these games just make them and don't care about reception or just not make them, because for years we've been imagining how things will be addressed and none of it is going to fit everyone's already-situated perception.

Nephtes said:
This is mind boggling to me that anyone could say that.

Street Fighter's story is such an easy fix.
The answer is right in Capcom's face and they're too stupid to leverage it.

Look at all the pre-SFV hype Capcom put out.
It was all about the thrill of the fight and the competition (centered around E-sports). People tuned in to EVO in the hundreds of thousands not to watch some stupid anime about fighters banded together to take on a super villain moon base plot ... They tuned in to watch competition between the best SFV players in the world to see who is the best.

Street Fighter needs to dump the attempts to outdo the 1990s live action movie camp and needs to present Street Fighter's story as one of competition between fighters to see who is the best.

This is why the Mortal Kombat movie worked and the Street Fighter one did not. Mortal Kombat was about saving the world at the high level, but at its core it was about a tournament.

Realign Street Fighter's story around that of a tournament. One where there are multiple a year (kind of like the Capcom Pro Tour). Each character in this vein could tell a story of them winning one of those tournaments. Tournaments hosted by SIN or Shadowloo or the Illuminati or whoever... But at it's core.. the game's story would be widely more effective if it mimiced a tournament. This would also cut down on garbage reasons the game gives for the fighting in that 50% of the time it's "grr! Let's fight now!"
Give the characters tournament about fighting, and tah day, reason built in.

More Bloodsport or Enter the Dragon... Less... Saturday Morning Cartoon.

Another big step Capcom could take cleaning up the story?
Learning to respect their characters.

The way they've personified characters like Laura or Ibuki or pretty much anyone not Ryu is embarrassing. Their personalities in the story mode do not match the competent fighters displayed in the actual gameplay.

Take Laura for instance. Prior to story mode, I thought she was like Makoto, a practicioner of a martial art, looking to spread it to the world. But in story mode? She's an air headed idiot that doesn't know friend from foe and constantly riffs on and on about her brother needing a girlfriend? What is this shit?

Before story mode, I thought maybe she would be in the vein of a Rhonda Rousey or other female MMA fighter, but the writer of SFV said, "nope, let's camp this shit up."

In closing Capcom needs to:
1. Ditch the gathering of fighters saving the world schtick left over from the 1990s live action Street Fighter
2. Center the story around something Capcom does well (tournaments, spirit of competition, etc.)
3. Respect the characters
Click to expand...

SF has rarely had a working tournament. SF2 was the last time the tournament ended in a decent way. I'd say 3, but Gill was all over the place.

SF has always been campy. That's literally the tone of the entire series. It doesn't need to be serious. I needs to flesh out its characters, but in two hours, you aren't going to get much time for that.

And besides Necaili, most characters got respect. Karin, Rashid, FANG, Juri, Vega, etc all got good showing. The only ones who got dumped on were Necaili, Chun, and maybe Cammy in terms of fights, but at least they expanded their stories. Shit, even Birdie got development. Sim became important as well, which he should be.

Capcom hasn't made a straight tournament story in a long time. SF3 was kind of that, but it was all over the place and only a few fights got documented. What you want is NRS on Capcom, which is not the style they are going for lol
 
N

Nephtes

Member
TheSpoiler said:
SF has rarely had a working tournament. SF2 was the last time the tournament ended in a decent way. I'd say 3, but Gill was all over the place.

SF has always been campy. That's literally the tone of the entire series. It doesn't need to be serious. I needs to flesh out its characters, but in two hours, you aren't going to get much time for that.

And besides Necaili, most characters got respect. Karin, Rashid, FANG, Juri, Vega, etc all got good showing. The only ones who got dumped on were Necaili, Chun, and maybe Cammy in terms of fights, but at least they expanded their stories. Shit, even Birdie got development. Sim became important as well, which he should be.

Capcom hasn't made a straight tournament story in a long time. SF3 was kind of that, but it was all over the place and only a few fights got documented. What you want is NRS on Capcom, which is not the style they are going for lol
Click to expand...

Go read some of my other supplemental posts on story in this thread.
I don't want super serious content or NRSing the story, I just want something that isn't embarrassing, is well written, and fits with the theme of "fighting tournament" and "spirit of competition". It doesn't even have to have flashy cut scenes or cost $$$.

And you're wrong. Many of the characters were dumped on in terms of the story mode we got... Ibuki and Mika being lackeys of Karin? That slap fight the two of them have while Rashid is going on about the chess piece with Karin... Ugh.

This was the part where my wife who was in the room while I was playing suggested that I could no longer make fun of her for watching soap operas.

And you know what? I can't disagree with her...
I think I'd rather watch the Young and the Restless than watch the SFV story mode again.
 
S

Scotia

Banned
TheSpoiler said:
SF has rarely had a working tournament. SF2 was the last time the tournament ended in a decent way. I'd say 3, but Gill was all over the place.

SF has always been campy. That's literally the tone of the entire series. It doesn't need to be serious. I needs to flesh out its characters, but in two hours, you aren't going to get much time for that.

And besides Necaili, most characters got respect. Karin, Rashid, FANG, Juri, Vega, etc all got good showing. The only ones who got dumped on were Necaili, Chun, and maybe Cammy in terms of fights, but at least they expanded their stories. Shit, even Birdie got development. Sim became important as well, which he should be.

Capcom hasn't made a straight tournament story in a long time. SF3 was kind of that, but it was all over the place and only a few fights got documented. What you want is NRS on Capcom, which is not the style they are going for lol
Click to expand...

Eh, SF3's tournament is simple enough to understand if you look hard enough. Alex obviously won, but there's only three or four fights that you need to know to get the gist of what happens. You can break it down to:

Oro beat Ryu

Ken left the tournament because Ryu got beat and that was the only person he came to fight

Alex was meant to fight Oro but Oro no-showed

Alex fought Gill and won, but Gill is implied to have held back

Alex leaves satisfied that he beat the guy who beat up Tom

Gill becomes interested in Alex.

That's it really. There are other side-stories going on but most of them are either non-canon, don't matter or happen after the tournament.
 
Shadoken

Shadoken

Member
kirblar said:
Punk still uses Nash vs big bodies though, so this is a good overall move for a secondary.
Click to expand...

Yea but apart from Gief and maybe Birdie , what other big body is even relevant?

If anything Nash should be the secondary , since Karin performs better in most matchups.
 
J

JusDoIt

Member
TheSpoiler said:
SF has always been campy. That's literally the tone of the entire series. It doesn't need to be serious. I needs to flesh out its characters, but in two hours, you aren't going to get much time for that.
Click to expand...

This is the issue with NRS campaigns and even movies like The Avengers too.

Which is why it would be wise for fighting game devs to avoid overarching ensemble story modes.

They could split the difference between a story and arcade mode, tho. Treat the tournament as an ongoing thing and don't put any narrative stakes on who wins. Give each character an arcade ladder with random opponents, but put cinematic chapters and special battles at the beginning, middle, and end. Everybody has their own story arc that may or may not intersect with the rest of the cast. Kinda like Alpha 3 did, but with modern cutscenes.

Done and done.
 
N

Nephtes

Member
JusDoIt said:
This is the issue with NRS campaigns and even movies like The Avengers too.

Which is why it would be wise for fighting game devs to avoid overarching ensemble story modes.

They could split the difference between a story and arcade mode, tho. Treat the tournament as an ongoing thing and don't put any narrative stakes on who wins. Give each character an arcade ladder with random opponents, but put cinematic chapters and special battles at the beginning, middle, and end. Everybody has their own story arc that may or may not intersect with the rest of the cast. Kinda like Alpha 3 did, but with modern cutscenes.

Done and done.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Why is it so hard for Capcom to realize this is the correct way to do a fighting game story?
I mean, I get it, Street Fighter characters have fought actual super heroes... But we don't need them saving the world.
They can just be friendly neighborhood fighter-mans... (And women).
 
T

TheSpoiler

Member
Tbh, the world saving thing has been a thing since SF2. Bison is a terrorist and Guile is going to stop him. Ryu wants to fight strong dudes and has a sense of good in him to (retcon) stop Bison as well along the way. Same with stopping Akuma, even though he wasn't really a national threat. Alpha fleshed that stuff out, with Chun going after Bison even moreso and the like. SF3 also has Gill, who at some point WILL be a jerk but we don't really know. The tournaments have just been a front for the most part. 4 was ESPECIALLY about saving the world against SiN.

Nephtes said:
Go read some of my other supplemental posts on story in this thread.
Click to expand...

V literally isn't a tournament though. I agree the actual story needs work, but tonality is fairly in line with the rest of the games. And in terms of Ibuki, what has she done to warrant anything? In 4 and 3, she does nothing but try to find a boyfriend, succeed, and impress Gill enough that he hands files over for her mission. That's it. Mika is sponsored by Karin, so that one makes more sense. Their little slap fight is just immature teenagers acting like teenagers and is in line with their characters. Maybe that could have been handled less cringey, but that's what they are.

Again, this is a problem of "not enough time" especially when the characters haven't been fleshed out since ever. Not saying SFV's story was perfect, but it was alright. The next story coming up with Ed can be way more serious since Bison's return could mean some shit is going down, so hopefully they improve at least upon that aspect.

Scotia said:
Eh, SF3's tournament is simple enough to understand if you look hard enough. Alex obviously won, but there's only three or four fights that you need to know to get the gist of what happens. You can break it down to:

Oro beat Ryu

Ken left the tournament because Ryu got beat and that was the only person he came to fight

Alex was meant to fight Oro but Oro no-showed

Alex fought Gill and won, but Gill is implied to have held back

Alex leaves satisfied that he beat the guy who beat up Tom

Gill becomes interested in Alex.

That's it really. There are other side-stories going on but most of them are either non-canon, don't matter or happen after the tournament.
Click to expand...

That's my point. They don't do much with the other characters. For a story mode, they need to include a bunch, not just the main dudes, and SF has skimped on that since forever. That was like three editions worth, too, while other people were doing fuck all.

JusDoIt said:
This is the issue with NRS campaigns and even movies like The Avengers too.

Which is why it would be wise for fighting game devs to avoid overarching ensemble story modes.

They could split the difference between a story and arcade mode, tho. Treat the tournament as an ongoing thing and don't put any narrative stakes on who wins. Give each character an arcade ladder with random opponents, but put cinematic chapters and special battles at the beginning, middle, and end. Everybody has their own story arc that may or may not intersect with the rest of the cast. Kinda like Alpha 3 did, but with modern cutscenes.

Done and done.
Click to expand...

This is probably the best option for everyone.
 
J

JusDoIt

Member
Nephtes said:
Exactly. Why is it so hard for Capcom to realize this is the correct way to do a fighting game story?
I mean, I get it, Street Fighter characters have fought actual super heroes... But we don't need them saving the world.
They can just be friendly neighborhood fighter-mans... (And women).
Click to expand...

Keeping up with the Joneses. NRS made a big splash with their story mode and casuals and the media ate it up, creating a whole new expectation for AAA fighting games. Capcom tried to X-Copy the formula and it compromised the game. Capcom should have been looking to the past tho. Alpha 3 style arcade and World Tour modes would have been doooope in SFV.
 
S

Scotia

Banned
TheSpoiler said:
That's my point. They don't do much with the other characters. For a story mode, they need to include a bunch, not just the main dudes, and SF has skimped on that since forever. That was like three editions worth, too, while other people were doing fuck all.
Click to expand...

I agree with you there, though 3 is definitely not alone in this nor is it the worst. SF4's S.I.N tournament was way fucking worse for this than SF3 was.
 
M

Mizerman

Member
JusDoIt said:
This is the issue with NRS campaigns and even movies like The Avengers too.

Which is why it would be wise for fighting game devs to avoid overarching ensemble story modes.

They could split the difference between a story and arcade mode, tho. Treat the tournament as an ongoing thing and don't put any narrative stakes on who wins. Give each character an arcade ladder with random opponents, but put cinematic chapters and special battles at the beginning, middle, and end. Everybody has their own story arc that may or may not intersect with the rest of the cast. Kinda like Alpha 3 did, but with modern cutscenes.

Done and done.
Click to expand...

See, now this would be an improvement. To be frank, you don't need to go the NRS route to make a competent story mode. They have their path, let others do their own.
 
L

lucebuce12

Member
I've posted it in the OT before but I always disagreed with the choice to have the story mode be rendered in-game rather than taking heavy use of pre-rendered videos.

It has it's advantages and disadvantages but you have a lot more freedom to show some crazy shit when you don't have to worry about the strength of the hardcore that the game is running on.

IJ2's story mode has stuff like Brainiac's ship invading earth, the whole of Krypton and other stuff that just would NOT be possible if it was all in-game.

The Capcpom team should at least have had the game run at 30 fps(on the PS4 version at least) during the story cutscenes so that they could go bolder with the particles and general effects. Like the scene where Ryu "powers up" against Necalli, the scene between Guile and Nash and others. Just go fucking ham with the particle effects to really let the anime shine through.
 
N

Nephtes

Member
TheSpoiler said:
V literally isn't a tournament though.
Click to expand...

It should have been.
Look at all the pre-release marketing for the game.
It focuses on the competetive fighting game community scene.

Capcom should have leveraged that spirit for the game's story creating a synergy (God I said that...) between the actual product and the marketing.
 
E

ElFly

Member
Lulubop said:
The should make a story mode lack the old smackdown story modes. Create a character, compete at tournament, money matches, side, socialize with Justin Wong, get jumped by Mankind in a boileroom
Click to expand...

I think VF had a mode like that, where you were a player that went to different arcades

no mankind tho
 
S

Scotia

Banned
Nephtes said:
It should have been.
Look at all the pre-release marketing for thr game.
It focuses on the competetive fighting game community scene.

Capcom should have leveraged that spirit for the game's story creating a synergy (God I said that...) between the actual product and the marketing.
Click to expand...

Unless they pulled a tournament out their ass like they did in 4, they couldn't have done another Street Fighter tournament because the next one in the SF canon is the one in SF3, which Alex won and was set after V, so they couldn't do one unless they fucked over the narrative. And not every SF game has to be a tournament, look at Alpha.

TheSpoiler said:
SF4 was terrible. So many plot points left hanging.
Click to expand...

Agreed. The story in SF4 is one of the many reasons I dislike the game.
 
N

Nephtes

Member
Scotia said:
Unless they pulled a tournament out their ass like they did in 4, they couldn't have done another Street Fighter tournament because the next one in the SF canon is the one in SF3, which Alex won and was set after V, so they couldn't do one unless they fucked over the narrative. And not every SF game has to be a tournament, look at Alpha.
Click to expand...

We should realize as a community that Capcom will never let Street Fighter move past SFIII in continuity and move on.

SFIII is infinity and all games in the Street Fighter series after III approach infinity but never actually get to it.
Like in calculus.

Ironically, Marvel vs. Capcom is actually going to Infinity with their next game... So...

Anyway, prove me wrong Capcom. Make SFVI happen after III in the timeline.
I dare you.
 
S

Scotia

Banned
Nephtes said:
We should realize as a community that Capcom will never let Street Fighter move past SFIII in continuity and move on.

SFIII is infinity and all games in the Street Fighter series after III approach infinity but never actually get to it.
Like in calculus.

Ironically, Marvel vs. Capcom is actually going to Infinity with their next game... So...

Anyway, prove me wrong Capcom. Make SFVI happen after III in the timeline.
I dare you.
Click to expand...

I have faith Capcom will move on eventually. I mean, when they were showing off the story mode at E3 last year I remember they said that it was going to be the bridge between SF4 and SF3.
 
Shadoken

Shadoken

Member
JusDoIt said:
This is the issue with NRS campaigns and even movies like The Avengers too.

Which is why it would be wise for fighting game devs to avoid overarching ensemble story modes.

They could split the difference between a story and arcade mode, tho. Treat the tournament as an ongoing thing and don't put any narrative stakes on who wins. Give each character an arcade ladder with random opponents, but put cinematic chapters and special battles at the beginning, middle, and end. Everybody has their own story arc that may or may not intersect with the rest of the cast. Kinda like Alpha 3 did, but with modern cutscenes.

Done and done.
Click to expand...

This is a good choice , but problem is even in Alpha 3 everyone just fought Bison at the end.

I wish they made the story so that every set of characters have their own Sub-arcs and motivations. I really hate how Necalli was dragged into the Bison plot line , him Akuma and Ryu should have been their own Arc while Guile,Nash,Chun deal with Bison.


I liked the part where Juri,Nash,Kolin and Rashid team up , it was the only redeeming part of the story.
 
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