Yup. Tekken characters are currently better because you can blindside people with them. Everyone's had SF4 for so long (and before that, all the other SF games), so they know what to look for with most of the SF cast.
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Street Fighter X Tekken v.2013 |OT| More alive than ever!
- Thread starter Horseress
- Start date
If that's the case, then maybe they really did do a good job of porting the Tekken characters over, because that came is so full of shenanigans that most people give up on trying to learn their way around them all.
SUPARSTARX
Member
Yung_Ice31 for Lei. Probably the best one seen so far.
EsotericManiac
Banned
Hwoarang, at least in my experiences, has a lot of 2 frame links. His instant dive kick takes a lot of practice but it's worth it.
His EX hunting hawk is terrible. Really, it is. Switching on the first hit of Heavy Hunting Hawk gives you a free jump attack into combo.
Jin is one of the top 5 characters IMO.
I think Law is good (use him with hwoarang) but his pokes are not good and you really need to be good at whiff punishing with his junkyard tekken string
What's wrong with it?
It's super easy to drive by post about why a game is terribad, but provide some explanations if you could. I don't see how anybody can think this game is as bad as MK4. lol
It's weird that you think VF and Tekken would mix...at all, but I think the Tekken characters translated very well to SF. I think they're a natural evolution of the SF characters. It'll be a really cool way to give SF characters new life in a future SF game. Give them some strings like Tekken characters. Hi/low mixups.
I've played upwards of 200 matches and can't think of a single one where gems were the deciding factor.
stn
Member
The reason why the Tekken characters are so good is because their strings still make you guess each time between a high or low. You have a 50% chance of guessing wrong. The SF cast doesn't have anything that is similar to this.
With the nerfs to zoning the SF cast is definitely worse. There are a few characters that I think will eventually lower in the tiers, such as Dudley, due to not having as good footsies. Then you factor in the amazing Tekken AA's and that's a recipe for success. Paul, Law, Jin, and Yoshimitsu all have better AA's than a majority of the SF cast now, lol. Seriously, what the hell? You're more likely to trade with Akuma, for example, then you are with Jin (i.e. you'll never trade with Jin).
SF footsies are also slightly overrated now. Take Rolento, for example. He has outstanding pokes, yes, but he has zero ways to force chip damage now. If you're good at teching you can block low and wait for an alpha counter or reversal opportunity. Ryu was great at footsies but now Akuma is probably the best shoto in that regard. The problem with Akuma's footsies is that they don't lead into any insane setups or strings, just knockdowns. Its not as strong when you consider that you have a 50% chance to escape after each knockdown.
Totally insane. Oh well, Capcom's force-feeding of the Tekken characters has worked for the most part. But yeah, I'm not convinced of the SF cast's strengths notwithstanding a few characters - and I mean few.
I'm willing to debate this if anyone wants. Cheers.
With the nerfs to zoning the SF cast is definitely worse. There are a few characters that I think will eventually lower in the tiers, such as Dudley, due to not having as good footsies. Then you factor in the amazing Tekken AA's and that's a recipe for success. Paul, Law, Jin, and Yoshimitsu all have better AA's than a majority of the SF cast now, lol. Seriously, what the hell? You're more likely to trade with Akuma, for example, then you are with Jin (i.e. you'll never trade with Jin).
SF footsies are also slightly overrated now. Take Rolento, for example. He has outstanding pokes, yes, but he has zero ways to force chip damage now. If you're good at teching you can block low and wait for an alpha counter or reversal opportunity. Ryu was great at footsies but now Akuma is probably the best shoto in that regard. The problem with Akuma's footsies is that they don't lead into any insane setups or strings, just knockdowns. Its not as strong when you consider that you have a 50% chance to escape after each knockdown.
Totally insane. Oh well, Capcom's force-feeding of the Tekken characters has worked for the most part. But yeah, I'm not convinced of the SF cast's strengths notwithstanding a few characters - and I mean few.
I'm willing to debate this if anyone wants. Cheers.
SUPARSTARX
Member
I still think the SF has plenty of viability even with how nice they buffed the Tekken characters. Once you figure out the Tekken character strings they're not really that scary anymore. SF cast still has good footsie range and attacks while a good portion of the TK cast are a bit shorter ranged. It's just made up by better whiff punishing.
Why? There's a preload gem standard now you can follow instead.
Are they safe? Can they be interrupted? Which strings are a true threat once you know where they hit?
Honest questions. I haven't played much of the game at all, but just from experience, most of these strings can usually be interrupted or backdashed out of, and are not safe once blocked.
I just don't see how that's a deciding factor in how good a Tekken character is. Maybe my mindset is different since I play both games.
EsotericManiac
Banned
I think if you've purchased the gem packs and use ones specifically for your team, you can do some completely unfair things.
My buddy showed me this combo with 3 meter gems. if he gets the first hit with alisa, his combo gives him a level 3 in the first 6 seconds.
pretty ridiculously stupid, but this is more of an exception as opposed to the norm
My buddy showed me this combo with 3 meter gems. if he gets the first hit with alisa, his combo gives him a level 3 in the first 6 seconds.
pretty ridiculously stupid, but this is more of an exception as opposed to the norm
Shouta
Member
EX Hunting Hawk gives Hwoarang 400-450 damage solo combo from a simple hit confirm. It's not meant for switching characters.
SUPARSTARX
Member
I know Nina, Law, Bryan have tiny 2-4f gaps in some of their strings you can interrupt with jabs or just reversals though. They're built in frame traps to punish button mashing but you can just block it. This is similar on some other characters. Then there are some that are blatantly defended by just blocking the last hit as a high or low because there's no interruption between strings. There's nothing really complicated after you learn some of them.
The only difficult to block characters is maybe Alisa chainsaws? Christie strings?
But if you can't figure out or adapt to anything after being hit by them a few times just alpha counter/cross cancel them off.
Yeah those are probably the motivation or resolution gems that give you like 1 to 1.5 bars. They also multiply by % when you get some of the other cross gauge boost gems. It's more of a smart combination of gems too. The damage and meter gems scale together so you can have like those +400 meter over 5 second gems multiplied by the 20-60% meter gain gems.
Teknopathetic
Member
"Are they safe? Can they be interrupted? Which strings are a true threat once you know where they hit?"
Quite a few aren't safe, most can be interrupted.
"You're more likely to trade with Akuma, for example, then you are with Jin (i.e. you'll never trade with Jin)."
If you're trading with Akuma's Shoryu as AA, you're using the wrong strength, by the by.
"SF footsies are also slightly overrated now. Take Rolento, for example. He has outstanding pokes, yes, but he has zero ways to force chip damage now."
How does this make Rolento's footsies overrated?
I've said it before, but the SF cast is only "worthless" if you believe people can't be opened up without a high/low mixup and 20+ years of SF history proves that's just not the case.
Quite a few aren't safe, most can be interrupted.
"You're more likely to trade with Akuma, for example, then you are with Jin (i.e. you'll never trade with Jin)."
If you're trading with Akuma's Shoryu as AA, you're using the wrong strength, by the by.
"SF footsies are also slightly overrated now. Take Rolento, for example. He has outstanding pokes, yes, but he has zero ways to force chip damage now."
How does this make Rolento's footsies overrated?
I've said it before, but the SF cast is only "worthless" if you believe people can't be opened up without a high/low mixup and 20+ years of SF history proves that's just not the case.
Especially if the argument is, "Just alpha counter and get away," when you can say that about any Tekken character's string before you have to worry about the high/low.
FindMyFarms
Member
I dunno why ppl are sleepin on hei. I think hes top tier, has the deadliest high low in the game
Teknopathetic
Member
"I dunno why ppl are sleepin on hei. I think hes top tier, has the deadliest high low in the game"
Look at this guy, haven't seen you around in awhile.
I don't think anyone's sleeping on Heihachi, he's been a known quantity since 2012. Big damage, nasty high/low. I think people are just reacting more to the characters that have changed significantly since 2012 or were DLC characters (since most people didn't play long enough to experience the DLC chars), whereas Hei's remained largely unchanged.
Look at this guy, haven't seen you around in awhile.
I don't think anyone's sleeping on Heihachi, he's been a known quantity since 2012. Big damage, nasty high/low. I think people are just reacting more to the characters that have changed significantly since 2012 or were DLC characters (since most people didn't play long enough to experience the DLC chars), whereas Hei's remained largely unchanged.
FindMyFarms
Member
Yea, works been keepin me busy. I've been relegated to casual/stream monster status lol.
True enough on hei I guess, I just never see anyone play him lol. Luckily, they actually buffed his damage output on top of his improved AA!
True enough on hei I guess, I just never see anyone play him lol. Luckily, they actually buffed his damage output on top of his improved AA!
I don't really know enough about him to say he's top for sure, but between the mixups and the derp DPs for good damage I think I might put him in the spot I typically give Hugo on my team.
Who do you pair him with and why?
Shouta
Member
Of the free ones, you'll still get a decent variety of them. Power or Meter gems are generally the way to go but defensive gems are also very good because you can get away with being a little more messy or give time to your back character to heal if you use it on a character you can play neutral well with. Best advice is to consider what you're doing in the match and which ones will activate the best for you.
I have hit 5 normal moves, hit 4 special moves, and activate super art for my Kuma which fits perfectly into the combos I use with him. If I have 2 bars, I can end a match on my second f.lp with him.
stn
Member
I'm aware Tekken strings can be interrupted but how practical is it unless you predict? You can technically interrupt a cr. mk xx hadouken from Ryu but that barely happens. My argument towards Rolento is he can't chip you at all. Unless your character has good footsies then the best game to play is either keep him out or counter/reversal when he gets in. He also has awful damage. If you're good at teching then he'll have a hard time getting damage on you. For what its worth, Infiltration may have dropped him for Jin. He also dropped Ryu. Dieminion also, from the looks of it, dropped Guile for Hwoarang and Raven.
With regards to the comment on Akuma's SRK, none of them have full invincibility except for the EX. You have to hit deep to be successful. But how is that fair when Paul's Shredder, for example, has ST-like invincibility? You don't have to time it beyond reacting to a jump. That gives me great comfort when I use Paul. Its ridiculous when you realize that SF is the fighter where special command AA's originated from, and yet now Tekken characters have better AA's in some cases. I don't like it at all.
With regards to the comment on Akuma's SRK, none of them have full invincibility except for the EX. You have to hit deep to be successful. But how is that fair when Paul's Shredder, for example, has ST-like invincibility? You don't have to time it beyond reacting to a jump. That gives me great comfort when I use Paul. Its ridiculous when you realize that SF is the fighter where special command AA's originated from, and yet now Tekken characters have better AA's in some cases. I don't like it at all.
Whoa. Okay, time to hit up the training room and see what I can come up with. I'd like to get out of my comfort zone with this game. I generally like rekka style characters, so want to do something different.
Teknopathetic
Member
"I'm aware Tekken strings can be interrupted but how practical is it unless you predict? You can technically interrupt a cr. mk xx hadouken from Ryu but that barely happens. My argument towards Rolento is he can't chip you at all. Unless your character has good footsies then the best game to play is either keep him out or counter/reversal when he gets in. He also has awful damage. If you're good at teching then he'll have a hard time getting damage on you. For what its worth, Infiltration may have dropped him for Jin. He also dropped Ryu. Dieminion also, from the looks of it, dropped Guile for Hwoarang and Raven."
It depends on the string, but most have a significant delay before the overhead. Bryan has some string where he can end in either a low or a launching overhead, and you can easily react to either option with a dp due to the delay. Julia's overhead options out of both her roll and her command dash can be jabbed out of or neutral jumped on reaction.
I'm still not seeing how you're coming to the conclusion that the SF cast's footsies are overrated with your Rolento example. Rolento having safe rekka on the first hit in 2012 was a bonus, but ultimately wasn't why he was strong and why he was strong wasn't really altered. Your whole argument against him is basically "if you don't let him hit you, he can't hurt you." That's the same for every character in the game.
It depends on the string, but most have a significant delay before the overhead. Bryan has some string where he can end in either a low or a launching overhead, and you can easily react to either option with a dp due to the delay. Julia's overhead options out of both her roll and her command dash can be jabbed out of or neutral jumped on reaction.
I'm still not seeing how you're coming to the conclusion that the SF cast's footsies are overrated with your Rolento example. Rolento having safe rekka on the first hit in 2012 was a bonus, but ultimately wasn't why he was strong and why he was strong wasn't really altered. Your whole argument against him is basically "if you don't let him hit you, he can't hurt you." That's the same for every character in the game.
stn
Member
All I'm saying is that the Tekken cast has superior footsies overall. My argument against Rolento is that you technically can down-back him. You can't do that against, say, Heihachi, where you have to guess every time between his F+FP or F+MP variations. The patriot circle was a great way to force pressure and mind-games. To me he's become more one-dimensional since now the best way to play him is to fish for counter-hit boosts with st. jab.
Either way, I don't think anyone can claim that the safe rekka wasn't a loss. Ryu's normals got nerfed, Zangief and Hugo got nerfed, Rufus got nerfed, and so forth. These characters were some of the strongest in 2012. Not much so now (especially Hugo, who was very one-dimensional but people lost to him because they lacked knowledge). Vega's pokes got nerfed. There's NO WAY Guile is better now with the meter nerfs. Etc...
Don't get me wrong, I'm listening to what you're saying. Just trying to play devil's advocate as much as I can. Let me know what you think...
Teknopathetic
Member
"All I'm saying is that the Tekken cast has superior footsies overall. My argument against Rolento is that you technically can down-back him. You can't do that against, say, Heihachi, where you have to guess every time between his F+FP or F+MP variations. The patriot circle was a great way to force pressure and mind-games. To me he's become more one-dimensional since now the best way to play him is to fish for counter-hit boosts with st. jab. "
They really don't though. Footsies has nothing to do with a character's high/low game or their strings.
The best way to play Rolento was *always* to fish for counter hits. That's how that character has always played in every game he's in. His stick mixups are still there (albeit nerfed), but that's just gimmicks. Rolento has always been a one-dimensional character that's about annoying the shit out of the opponent until they flinch and then you counter hit them for a bit of damage. Rolento's neutral game is still strong. Comparatively, Heihachi's awful mobility leaves him quite disadvantaged when he's not in someone's face pressuring them.
"Either way, I don't think anyone can claim that the safe rekka wasn't a loss. Ryu's normals got nerfed, Zangief and Hugo got nerfed, Rufus got nerfed, and so forth. These characters were some of the strongest in 2012. Not much so now (especially Hugo, who was very one-dimensional but people lost to him because they lacked knowledge). Vega's pokes got nerfed. There's NO WAY Guile is better now with the meter nerfs. Etc..."
Safe rekka was a loss, but it wasn't so important that it changes the character significantly. I mean we can go down the list of characters that were buffed/nerfed and I think you'll find that both sides got a bit of each.
They really don't though. Footsies has nothing to do with a character's high/low game or their strings.
The best way to play Rolento was *always* to fish for counter hits. That's how that character has always played in every game he's in. His stick mixups are still there (albeit nerfed), but that's just gimmicks. Rolento has always been a one-dimensional character that's about annoying the shit out of the opponent until they flinch and then you counter hit them for a bit of damage. Rolento's neutral game is still strong. Comparatively, Heihachi's awful mobility leaves him quite disadvantaged when he's not in someone's face pressuring them.
"Either way, I don't think anyone can claim that the safe rekka wasn't a loss. Ryu's normals got nerfed, Zangief and Hugo got nerfed, Rufus got nerfed, and so forth. These characters were some of the strongest in 2012. Not much so now (especially Hugo, who was very one-dimensional but people lost to him because they lacked knowledge). Vega's pokes got nerfed. There's NO WAY Guile is better now with the meter nerfs. Etc..."
Safe rekka was a loss, but it wasn't so important that it changes the character significantly. I mean we can go down the list of characters that were buffed/nerfed and I think you'll find that both sides got a bit of each.
FindMyFarms
Member
Hei is for sure a secondary character, due to his mobility he pairs better with a quick character that has good footsies so I use Lars.
ihearthawthats
Banned
not his double palm string, unless you mean using an invincible reversal. some of the charas i play don't have reliable reversals, so back dash is the safest option next to cross counter.
other strings, yes you can interrupt, especially if you have a 3-frame. but i was originally talking about unfamiliarity (heihachi was just an example), and backdash is safer in that case. mashing jab when you don't know the matchup is begging for a counterhit. of course it depends on the character, but in general i find counterhit setup usually leads to more damage than punishing a backdash. namely due to the bound, crumple, juggle, etc properties of counterhits. reversals are great, but if blocked it easily gets punished by a max damage bnb.
of course all these things are dependent on how good your jab is, how good your backdash is, or how good your reversal is, etc. hugo is ass in all these regards, but without meter, backdash is his best alternative to just sitting there and blocking.
FindMyFarms
Member
True, but that move is pretty garbo, there's no reason for heihachi to ever do a double palm string (outside of f+lp -> lp) unless it's on a combo. But if for some reason you do use it (which you shouldn't), you can delay the overhead option to get a bounce on the back dash.
This is true. Rolento also has one of the best whiff punishers in the game with st. mk, which is why I'll also pair him up with heihachi sometimes, because 99% of players will whiff buttons the second you're near them. Getting 400 damage and then a stupid mixup off a whiff punish is really good. Also rolento has a bunch of buttons that he can hit confirm off up close to punish techs.
I made a video for Dudley. I put together a bunch of easy to execute combos for common situations like comboing off a launcher or an overhead. I also included stuff like anti-airs and comboing off of air to airs. It's meant to give you a solid starting point when picking him up for the first time, so there's no super advanced stuff. See the description for extra notes. Tell me what you think 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-L1dBL2C68
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-L1dBL2C68
I feel like the SF characters are still better. Chun Li, to me, is the best in the game free. I've been playing her myself and shes just too good. Dudley, Sagat(he is insane in this game, people just don't know), Guy, Ken are all amazing. The Tekken characters are very good now, but a lot of it is due to unfamiliarity.
I made a video for Dudley. I put together a bunch of easy to execute combos for common situations like comboing off a launcher or an overhead. I also included stuff like anti-airs and comboing off of air to airs. It's meant to give you a solid starting point when picking him up for the first time, so there's no super advanced stuff. See the description for extra notes. Tell me what you think
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-L1dBL2C68
I'm sure I'll find it useful. Will watch later. Thanks.
About to pick up Dudley. So sad Rose is not in the game, as she's my fave in AE, and would be perfect as a partner. I guess Lili is the next classiest to pair with him.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Go play some of the sf characters I listed then get back to me they for the most part shit on almost every single tekken character.
For the most part the design is SF characters have faster normals, TK characters have more mix ups.
Guess which one is better.
Christe and Chun are about on par almost to be honest. Chuns a bit easier to get bigger damage off though.
I actually use Hei on point. His low mobility doesn't mean he should be the second character. Hei has very good normals (primarily f.mp and st.lk) and his EX Rising Uppercut can whiff punish people from half screen easily. His f.mp can often put you in the right distance to begin your high/low mixup as well. The only issue I've had with Heihachi's low mobility is when people attempt to run away when there's only a few seconds left. I think as long as you're patient, Heihachi can be a great point character.
FindMyFarms
Member
Don't get me wrong, hei can for sure get in, esp with forward moving normals that are plus on block (f. Mp, f. Lk) and comboable, along with a stupid jump, but id rather have someone I can just roll with and then get hei in quick.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Good is an understatement.
The games combo system in general let's him play more towards his design as well.
Cloudius12
Member
Anyone want to play a few games on PS3? PSN Cloudius12
/agreed
I didn't like him in SSF4, but I just played through arcade as him...and I just feel like he "clicked". I wasn't doing anything impressive or fancy, but I felt like his whole combat design worked better in this game than in SSF4. He's a lot more fun, for sure.
Just sent you a friend request. If you're up for some matches later, I'm down. Goes for any PSN gaffers tonight.
PSN = itwasfunny
FindMyFarms
Member
That and being the only char that can jump cancel on block, not just hit lol...
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Yeah no clue how the fuck they overlooked that
Shouta
Member
Didn't I beat you up last night? I was playing King/Kuma or Bob/Kuma.
FindMyFarms
Member
damn its like that lol?