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[Daouzin]

I think Melee's GF got 220k at its peak

Sick! I just jumped on to Instagram and there's a screenshot of twitch showing over 231,000 viewers for Melee.

 

[IntelliHeath]

It's been a long time since I played Smash Bros. on the Wii U. Have they done anything about the ridiculous invincibility frames after rolling? It's the one thing that always bugged me.

I would like to believe that they did change the rolling's invincibility but I'm not sure tho. I know they changed the shield with the patch long time ago.

So Hungrybox won Melee.

Spoiler

Too bad his character will never be good in any new Smash game ever again

I'm very thrilled that he won because I have been rooting for him to win ever since 2013 or so.

 

[jnWake]

I'm happy for HBox. I dislike that Armada switches to Fox for the matchup. As annoying as Peach is it's cool to not see Fox at the top.

 

[BY2K]

Hyuga got the boot from VGBootCamp.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sotikd

 

[chaosblade]

I'm happy for HBox. I dislike that Armada switches to Fox for the matchup. As annoying as Peach is it's cool to not see Fox at the top.

It's an awful matchup for Peach. Counterpicks are becoming extremely important at the top level to keep up with the competition, it's why Mango is picking up Marth.

 

[Professor Beef]

Hyuga got the boot from VGBootCamp.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sotikd

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

 

[BGBW]

What does Hyuga have in common with items?

They're both banned from Smash!

 

[fredrancour]

I'm happy for HBox. I dislike that Armada switches to Fox for the matchup. As annoying as Peach is it's cool to not see Fox at the top.

armada despises puff and believes the puff-peach matchup is unwinnable for peach at his and hbox's level. he spent over a year using young link for the matchup at one point until hungrybox figured out how to effectively deal with running away and throwing projectiles. It still feels crazy to look back and be able to say "at some point hungrybox tried out ness as a young link counterpick."

there was surprisingly little fox this year. one game of frustration-fox from plup, mango all fox in top 8, and armada vs hbox (which put him at 2 sets peach 2 sets fox). no mew2king fox cause he didn't fight hbox. no leffen. no sfat or silentwolf or lucky making it to top 8.

 

[The Last One]

armada despises puff and believes the puff-peach matchup is unwinnable for peach at his and hbox's level. he spent over a year using young link for the matchup at one point until hungrybox figured out how to effectively deal with running away and throwing projectiles. It still feels crazy to look back and be able to say "at some point hungrybox tried out ness as a young link counterpick."

there was surprisingly little fox this year. one game of frustration-fox from plup, mango all fox in top 8, and armada vs hbox (which put him at 2 sets peach 2 sets fox). no mew2king fox cause he didn't fight hbox. no leffen. no sfat or silentwolf or lucky making it to top 8.

Westballz went Fox at some point, I think. Maybe at top 8 against S2J.

 

[Vena]

armada despises puff and believes the puff-peach matchup is unwinnable for peach at his and hbox's level. he spent over a year using young link for the matchup at one point until hungrybox figured out how to effectively deal with running away and throwing projectiles. It still feels crazy to look back and be able to say "at some point hungrybox tried out ness as a young link counterpick."

there was surprisingly little fox this year. one game of frustration-fox from plup, mango all fox in top 8, and armada vs hbox (which put him at 2 sets peach 2 sets fox). no mew2king fox cause he didn't fight hbox. no leffen. no sfat or silentwolf or lucky making it to top 8.

The year is 20PP. None can stand before the might of Puff.

 

[The Last One]

The year is 20PP. None can stand before the might of Puff.

Actually, the year is 666XX /hax$

 

[fredrancour]

Westballz went Fox at some point, I think. Maybe at top 8 against S2J.

he did tons of fox before top 8 but after he went to losers I only saw falco, though i could've just missed it.

 

[NEO0MJ]

So here's the characters that appeared in top 64 and the number of times they showed up.

• Sheik: 8
• Cloud: 7
• Rosalina & Luma: 7
• Sonic: 6
• Diddy Kong: 4
• Bayonetta: 4
• Mario: 3
• Fox: 3
• Donkey Kong: 3
• Meta Knight: 3
• Ness: 3
• Yoshi: 2
• Mewtwo: 2
• Villager: 2
• Zero Suit Samus: 2
• Ryu: 2
• Marth: 2
• Lucario: 2
• Toon Link: 2
• Olimar: 2
• Mega Man: 1
• Pit: 1
• Mr. Game & Watch: 1
• Lucina: 1
• Robin: 1
• Pikachu: 1
• Palutena: 1
• Duck Hunt: 1

Even though Bayonetta showed up a good number of times none of them were in top 32. Half the cast didn't manage to make it as well.

 

[Metal B]

It's been a long time since I played Smash Bros. on the Wii U. Have they done anything about the ridiculous invincibility frames after rolling? It's the one thing that always bugged me.

Here some notable changes from two different patches, which changed a lot of defensive mechanics (including rolling):

Patch 1.1.0

• The duration of invincibility on all spot dodges and rolls have been reduced by one frame. This means that a roll or spot dodge now renders a character invincible for a slightly shorter amount of time.
• Moves with hitlag modifiers greater than 1.0 (for example, Marth's tippers) are now safer on shield than before, dividing the hitlag frames the attacker receives by 1.25.

Patch 1.1.1

• Roll invincibility duration reduced by one frame.
• Shieldstun formula for non-projectile attacks: damage / 2.56 → (damage / 1.75) + 2. This significantly increases shieldstun, making attacks safer on shield, and also makes shields significantly easier to break.
• Shieldstun formula for projectiles is now (damage / 3.5) + 2. This results in more shieldstun for projectiles dealing less than approximately 19% damage, and less shieldstun for projectiles with more damage. (Note, however, that projectiles with low hitlag are hurt by the hitlag change below.)
• Powershielding now reduces the amount of shieldstun received by 25%.
• Powershield timing window: 4 frames → 3 frames. This makes powershielding more difficult, though the above change also makes it more rewarding.
• Shieldstun now overlaps shield lock-in. As a result, a character who shields an attack dealing at least 10.5% damage will be able to drop shield immediately after shieldstun ends, even if they shielded just one frame too early for a powershield. Attempting to powershield an attack is therefore slightly safer than before compared to simply holding shield.
• When a character is in shieldstun from a direct attack, the attacker cannot grab them.
• Hitlag modifiers are now applied to shielding characters when they are hit. This means that attacks with increased hitlag (including electric attacks) are now safer on shield, while attacks with reduced hitlag (such as Marth's sourspots) are less safe (though the universal increase in shieldstun compensates for this).

 

[fredrancour]

So here's the characters that appeared in top 64 and the number of times they showed up.

Even though Bayonetta showed up a good number of times none of them were in top 32. Half the cast didn't manage to make it as well.

only one pikachu maybe if i play my butt off i can have the tournament of my life at Shine and make it out of pools before getting curb-stomped.

do you know if any noteworthy bayonettas were there? it became apparent pretty quickly that the nerf was overkill but i didn't think it was quite this much.

 

[Juni_]

Salem, Saj, and Pink Fresh were at evo. I mean Salem got taken out by ZeRo and I heard that was a pretty close set so it's not like Bayo can't make it top 32.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Tires don exits

Seems about right. I like how Mario jumps all around the tier list, constantly, while never really being changed.

Those Metaknight nerfs hurt. Marth is also a pro at going from the trash can to the big boys, although Mewtwo is still the king of tier jumps. Seeing Mewtwo sit with the kings warms my heart.

It's nice having the game where there's no definitive top tier.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Tires don exits

Seems about right. I like how Mario jumps all around the tier list, constantly, while never really being changed.

Those Metaknight nerfs hurt. Marth is also a pro at going from the trash can to the big boys, although Mewtwo is still the king of tier jumps. Seeing Mewtwo sit with the kings warms my heart.

It's nice having the game where there's no definitive top tier.

Can you explain what some of the chart means? I get the gist, but what's "undefined?"

 

[Metal B]

Tires don exits

Seems about right. I like how Mario jumps all around the tier list, constantly, while never really being changed.

Those Metaknight nerfs hurt. Marth is also a pro at going from the trash can to the big boys, although Mewtwo is still the king of tier jumps. Seeing Mewtwo sit with the kings warms my heart.

It's also interesting, compering it to the results Tier-list:
https://mobile.twitter.com/Pablo_FAITH/status/755061352159412225/photo/1
Let's hope the Smash Developers take notice and give out some needed buffs and some nervs.

It's nice having the game where there's no definitive top tier.

Also the low-tier characters aren't complete hopeless, which gives the game a fine balance. It just needs a little fine tuning (especially for the Main-Zelda characters).

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Can you explain what some of the chart means? I get the gist, but what's "undefined?"

He couldn't think of names for the lower tiers.

He also couldn't place Lucina or the Miis since literally nobody uses them.

 

[PK Gaming]

Tires don exits

Seems about right. I like how Mario jumps all around the tier list, constantly, while never really being changed.

Those Metaknight nerfs hurt. Marth is also a pro at going from the trash can to the big boys, although Mewtwo is still the king of tier jumps. Seeing Mewtwo sit with the kings warms my heart.

It's nice having the game where there's no definitive top tier.

It's definitepy pretty accurate, as much as I grudgingly hate to admit

Corrin is the theory queen at this point

 

[GiantBreadbug]

He couldn't think of names for the lower tiers.

He also couldn't place Lucina or the Miis since literally nobody uses them.

Oooh gotcha, thanks.

 

[random25]

Tires don exits

Seems about right. I like how Mario jumps all around the tier list, constantly, while never really being changed.

Those Metaknight nerfs hurt. Marth is also a pro at going from the trash can to the big boys, although Mewtwo is still the king of tier jumps. Seeing Mewtwo sit with the kings warms my heart.

It's nice having the game where there's no definitive top tier.

After the latest results, I'm doubting about Cloud being there at the top group of the tier list. He's just as good as a secondary at this point. Surprised about the Rosalina drop since she's still basically as strong as she was since the beginning.

 

[NEO0MJ]

After the latest results, I'm doubting about Cloud being there at the top group of the tier list. He's just as good as a secondary at this point. Surprised about the Rosalina drop since she's still basically as strong as she was since the beginning.

Rosalina is still good but is considered more difficult to use, which is why she's in the second group. The same applies to everyone in it. They're just as good if not better but have higher execution barriers or are too fragile.

He couldn't think of names for the lower tiers.

He also couldn't place Lucina or the Miis since literally nobody uses them.

A sole Lucina actually showed up in top 32! She was a secondary, though.

 

[Ahnez]

Marth tier jumping is so inconsistent

Spoiler

Just like his hit/hurtboxes in melee/brawl/pm

 

[PadWarrior]

Tires don exits

Seems about right. I like how Mario jumps all around the tier list, constantly, while never really being changed.

Those Metaknight nerfs hurt. Marth is also a pro at going from the trash can to the big boys, although Mewtwo is still the king of tier jumps. Seeing Mewtwo sit with the kings warms my heart.

It's nice having the game where there's no definitive top tier.

Watching iStudying play greninja I would think he should be higher.

 

[random25]

Rosalina is still good but is considered more difficult to use, which is why she's in the second group. The same applies to everyone in it. They're just as good if not better but have higher execution barriers or are too fragile.

Well the top says "Common and safe at top level". I've seen a lot of Rosalinas at top 32 and even more at top 64 of evo, and Rosalina has been well represented consistently in the top 8 of major tournaments thanks to Dabuz. I'm pretty sure she belongs in there especially when her flaws aren't even easy to exploit against.

 

[Javier]

This is the first time I see Pac-Man so low. He's usually Mid/Mid-Low

 

[NEO0MJ]

Well the top says "Common and safe at top level". I've seen a lot of Rosalinas at top 32 and even more at top 64 of evo, and Rosalina has been well represented consistently in the top 8 of major tournaments thanks to Dabuz. I'm pretty sure she belongs in there especially when her flaws aren't even easy to exploit against.

It probably helps that she isn't touched much in balance patches so not many who mained her jumped ship like with other top tiers.

This is the first time I see Pac-Man so low. He's usually Mid/Mid-Low

Wario and Yoshi are also lower than most lists. Usually they hang out with Falcon.

 

[Nocturnowl]

The gap between standard and competitive play is so weird when you look at tier lists.
My friends best character is Link and one of my best is Dedede yet apparently they struggle in those particular competitive circumstances.

I have to say though, it's fun seeing all the characters jumping around in placement, almost like most of the (huge) roster get their time to shine.

 

[BGBW]

Can we add a note that while we're a Smash community, we're not the same as that other Smash community that thinks sexual assault isn't a big deal.

 

[Nocturnowl]

^I second this notion.

 

[MrSaturn99]

I know it's not an official list, but it breaks my heart to see Kirby, Dedede, Pac-Man and Junior/Koopalings that low. Not that I pay much attention to the metagame but for whatever reason tier lists always get me.

BTW, I always thought Pac-Man was solid. Has that changed over the past year or...?

Can we add a note that while we're a Smash community, we're not the same as that other Smash community that thinks sexual assault isn't a big deal.

Man, if that's seriously going on in the other thread...

Regardless, I concur.

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

Just curious, if I asked for 1v1 matches here would anyone be available and willing to play?

 

[Juni_]

Just curious, if I asked for 1v1 matches here would anyone be available and willing to play?

No

 

[TheDinoman]

chorus kids reveal trailer theme

 

[Neoxon]

The EVO guys heard our complaints about Smash 4's treatment at EVO 2016.

Yo

Hey guys. I’m Tony Cannon (Ponder), the Tournament Director and one of the founders of Evo. Thanks for supporting Evo in record numbers again this year. I know the experience was disappointing for many of you; especially those of you who made it to top-32.
Our goal at Evo is to hold a great tournament for the community. I’ve seen reports that Evo is trying to exploit the community for profit, or skate by with just a “good enough” tournament. Over the next year, we aim to prove to you that this is absolutely not the case. We want everyone to leave the experience thinking “wow, that was an awesome event! I can’t wait to come next year!!”. Obviously we did not achieve that this year.
But to hold a great Smash 4 event, we need your guys constructive feedback and cooperation. I’ve read through all the feedback online and wanted to respond to your specific pain points, explain how they happened, and let you know how we’d like to improve upon them for next year. In no particular order, here’s what I’m hearing from you about your biggest pain points. Please let me know if I’ve missed any; I’d be happy to respond to those, too.


The Convention Center Felt Cramped on Friday and Saturday

There was definitely a lack of space in the convention center at peak hours, which caught us by surprise. We believe we had booked more than enough room for the event. Evo 2015 was held in two ballrooms at the Bally’s Event Center totaling 79,251 sq ft. We were greatly concerned that this would not be enough space for 2016. Evo attendance has historically grown by about 25% year-over-year. We also knew this would be the first year for Street Fighter V, which would certainly spur additional growth.
Last last year we cancelled the contract with the planned venue and booked the 150,000 sq ft venue in the Las Vegas Convention Center, nearly double the space from 2015. Unfortunately, the event grew faster than our most aggressive estimates. Registrations for the Street Fighter tournament grew by over 100% year over year, and Pokken (the first time at Evo) interest was much more than we anticipated. Pokken also required twice as much space as other games, further exasperating the space problem. Finally, over 4x as many people bought day-passes to Evo this year compared to 2015, greatly increasing the number of people actually in the event hall at a time.
The result was that the event felt cramped in spite of our best efforts. We are currently investigating ways to fix this for 2017, including booking a single hall larger than 150,000 sq ft, booking additional tournament halls as we did in 2015, or making better use of the space we have.


Viewing Experience in the Convention Center was Bad

Smash 4 did not have a projector for a majority of the tournament. This caused a lot of crowding around the tournament stations which made the Smash area feel more cramped than any other tournament. Even when Smash 4 was on the main screen, there was not enough seating for everyone who wanted to watch, resulting in crowding of the isles leading between the two tournament sections.
Many of these problems are caused by the aforementioned space problems, but even in a space-constrained environment we need to do better. For example, we could have setup a dedicated stream-viewing room for spectators in an adjacent hall or conference room.
One thing we certainly need to do for 2017 is to ensure all tournaments have a big-screen somewhere (ideally in the tournament hall, but perhaps in another room if we’re space constrained) where they can view their tournament. This is one of my highest priority issues to fix for next year. Everyone at the event should be able to watch their game of choice without having to restore to looking at a game station monitor.
Finally, games which had their finals in the Las Vegas Convention Center did not have the level of in-house production they had come to expect from Evo. The big screen was much smaller and the main stage much more modest. The seating area for the main stage was also smaller than what we had in 2015. Most of these changes were the result of increased complexity on the production side. This was the first year where Evo produced the Sunday finals in an arena setting and a live television broadcast, simultaneously. Rather than stretching ourselves too thin trying to do everything (and potentially failing at everything), we elected to focus on Sunday to make sure we did a good job there. In hindsight, that was a mistake. Sunday went off well, but people’s Friday and Saturday experiences were too greatly compromised. Next year, we’re going to increase the staff and budget for Tournament Hall production to ensure the level of spectacle is what you have come to expect from Evo.


Friday Night Pools Ran Late While Stations Were Available for Friendlies

This should not have happened. The plan going into Friday night was to use every available station to accelerate Round 2 brackets to finish the tournament as soon as possible. Friendlies were to be allowed only on stations which were not being used for the tournament. I’ve spoken with Bear (the head TO for Smash 4) and have confirmed that they executed that plan to the best of their ability, and that he was personally unplugged joysticks of players who refused to stop their friendly match to make room for a tournament one.
In Bear’s opinion, the biggest reason we ran late was because of poor scheduling and delays caused by paper brackets. Round 2 matches were scheduled to start at 8:00 PM, immediately after the 6:00 PM Round 1 matches. This meant when Round 1 brackets ran late, a significant number of Round 2 brackets were delayed as well. The manual process by which we moved qualifiers from Round 1 into Round 2 delayed the start of some Round 2 brackets even further.
We certainly need to do a better job of scheduling. In hindsight, it would have been much better to start Round 2 on Saturday morning instead of Friday night. This would have given people who finished Round 1 pools early the rest of the day off and given the TOs time to propagate changes from Round 1 to Round 2 overnight. If Round 2 had started Saturday morning instead of Friday night, I don’t think we would have had this problem.
In addition, we need to switch from paper brackets to a fully-online system to eliminate the delay in propagating players from one round to the next. We plan to do this for next year.


The Schedule for Event Competitors was Oppressive

Many Mortal Kombat XL and Smash 4 players were required to play their last match late into the night one day followed by an 8:00 am match the next. That’s just not acceptable and was not our intent. Had everything gone according to plan, both MK XL and Smash 4 would have finished by 10:00 PM and players would have had 10 hours of between matches.
Our biggest mistake here is that we need to do a better job of scheduling to make sure competitors have an ample opportunity to rest even if things do not go according to plan. Even if our schedule is running late, players should have at least 12 hours after they finish their games on one day before we ask them to play again the next. This is something we will absolutely fix for next year.


The Bracket Seeding System Was Limited and Cumbersome

This year we asked each fighting game community to provide the top 32 seeds for their tournament. Once the initial brackets were created, we put them up for public review and asked representatives from the community for feedback to make them better.
By putting the brackets up for review, the community caught an egregious bug in our software which resulted in double jeopardy in late rounds when creating brackets for tournaments featuring between 2048 and 4095 players. This affected both Smash 4 and Melee, and we were able to fix the bug and re-create the brackets before the tournament started.
We also asked for a “swap-list”, which was used to swap two players in the bracket to provide better structure (e.g. fixing seeding problems). The initial swap-list was limited to 32 players, but we continued to accept player swaps throughout the preview week before brackets were locked down. In total, we processed 97 swaps for the Smash 4 tournament, including swaps to realign the seeds after the Round 2 brackets were fixed.
By processing all 97 swaps volunteered by the community, we collectively were able to seed the bracket much deeper than we had originally requested and fix some issues which happened after seeding; including swapping Ally into a seeded position after we accidentally forgot to include him, and swapping PPMD out when we learned he wasn’t going to attend.
Overall, the system we had in place had good results. After all the swaps are processed and the Round 2 issue were fixed, Bear and the community leaders he worked with were satisfied with the structure of the brackets.
The biggest problem here is that the swap system is painful. It’s very, very painful, and the brackets don’t actually look “good” until the very end of it. This makes it difficult for players to know exactly who their opponents will be, and for community to generate pre-EVO content and hype (e.g. top 32 fantasy brackets). Next year we want to revamp the system to take a much longer list of seeded players and streamline the bracket tweaking process so that the brackets look good from the very beginning.


Brackets Take Too Long to Update Online

Evo uses paper brackets to run the event (if you want to know why, scroll down). This means the online brackets are updated much much later than systems like smash.gg or challonge.com. This is bad for players who are scouting their next matchup and bad for people who are following the event; especially those watching on stream. We are planning an overhaul of our bracket making software to address some of the other issues (e.g. seeding beyond top 32). Adding realtime bracket updates is something we want to put in as well.


Best of 3 Is Meh. Best of 5 Would be Better. So would Sunday Finals.

There are 8 other games running at Evo besides Smash 4, and all of them need to make compromises to finish within the allotted time. We’d like to work with you to figure out what the best compromises are. For example, we want all Finals brackets to fit into about 2 hours. Smash 4 finals are currently bo3 until Winner’s finals to fit that schedule. Is that the correct solution? What about changing the stock/timer rules to make matches run faster? What about going to 3/5 and running some losers’ bracket matches off stage (but on a secondary screen)? What about only doing top 6 instead of top 8? You probably hate all those ideas. What are some ideas you don’t hate which can help us have a good event and still meet our time constraints? We want to reach the best format for you guys that fits the constraints of the event. To do so, we need to establish a stronger line of communication between the Evo tournament staff and the Smash community leaders much farther in advance of the tournament.


Outro

Once again, thanks for coming out to Evo again. Hopefully this post has given you a greater understanding of how we want to make things better for next year. We’d like your help in making sure we do the right things for your community. Quite honestly, Tom, Joey and I are not Smash players, which makes it impossible for us to know how best to cater to your event without a lot of input from you. Until now, a lot of that communication has happened on social media (Reddit, Twitter, etc.) and has not been effective. I’d like to find a better channel for us to work on to make sure we deliver an event you’ll be happy with. We can do this in whatever forum you’re most comfortable with (Facebook, Discord, etc.), just let me know. I’m looking forward to making Evo 2017 better for you guys.

Thanks,
Tony Cannon (Ponder) Evolution Tournament Director


Addendum: About those paper brackets

The Evo tournament software was originally written 15 years ago to automate the process of making paper brackets to run the event. In that era, running brackets on paper was the only way to run an event of Evo’s scale; smart-phones didn’t exist, and even if they did internet in a hotel ballroom was extremely spotty.
As technology advanced (say, in 2008), we continued to use paper brackets. They were reliable, flexible, and we were absolutely, 100% sure we could finish the event with them. Hotel internet was spotty, and the risk of a loss of internet causing the tournament to grind to a complete halt was too great.
Around 2012, smart phones were prevalent enough and hotel internet reliable enough that it seemed possible to run a tournament online with a smartphone per bracket, but by now the tournament software was over 10 years old. Paper brackets were still working great, and the value from shifting to all online just wasn’t there.
Fast-forwarding to 2016, Evo is finally at a scale where paper brackets are no longer a viable way to run the tournament. There are now hundreds of thousands of people potentially interested in following the tournament online in real-time and the manual process of moving players between rounds is starting to become a bottleneck. Changing Evo to use online brackets first (falling back to paper brackets only in extreme emergencies) is one of my biggest priorities for 2017.

 

[CronoShot]

Sounds like what I expected: they put so much emphasis and care into Sunday's finals this year that they basically gave no shits about Friday/Saturday, which majorly fucked over games that weren't on Sunday. Smash 4, having by far the greatest number of entrants of any Saturday games, got hit the hardest.

Still doesn't really explain why S4's finals were given such a shitty time slot on Saturday.

 

[DecoReturns]

I'm surprise the guys at Evo didn't ask for input from Smash 4 players or rather people who can tell them how effectively run a tournament, seeing how they said they are not Smash 4 players, which showed.

Hopefully next year is better, I still think the Viwership for Smash 4 would've been greater with a better time slot and such. This year was much for entertaining. The only top 8 match that I didn't enjoy was Winners Finals.

 

[Professor Beef]

Still doesn't really explain why S4's finals were given such a shitty time slot on Saturday.

That's on Wizard, always has been.

 

[Vena]

Still doesn't really explain why S4's finals were given such a shitty time slot on Saturday.

Easy to explain: Wizard doesn't like Smash but he'd piss of a hornet's nest if he tried to pull the same shit with Melee. Sm4sh is still new and fluid (and trying to establish itself) so its harder for the community to ram it up his ass like the Melee community would.

 

[Neoxon]

Easy to explain: Wizard doesn't like Smash but he'd piss of a hornet's nest if he tried to pull the same shit with Melee. Sm4sh is still new and fluid (and trying to establish itself) so its harder for the community to ram it up his ass like the Melee community would.

Or, in a less controversial point of view, maybe they thought that Smash 4 would die down like Brawl did, but they didn't. But by the time they noticed that Smash 4 wouldn't go the way of Brawl, it was too late to make any major changes. That plus Nintendo doesn't really contribute to the prize pool.

Basically, I'm not sure about the chances of Smash 4 being a Sunday game next year (since there's a ton of other games that would provide diversity to the Sunday line-up & actually have devs who support their respective games in a big way), but a prime-time Saturday time slot would be well-appreciated & a good compromise between the Smash scene & the rest of the FGC who may not be fans of the Smash games.

 

[TheDinoman]

Like I said in another thread, I just think Smash 4 has some sort of stigma against it, especially from Melee players. I've seen a lot of negative comments against it like "BRAWL 2.0", "TR4SH", etc, lot of people thinking the game is extremely boring and slow to watch in comparison to Melee, etc.

 

[Vena]

Or, in a less controversial point of view, maybe they thought that Smash 4 would die down like Brawl did, but they didn't. But by the time they noticed that Smash 4 wouldn't go the way of Brawl, it was too late to make any major changes. That plus Nintendo doesn't really contribute to the prize pool.

Basically, I'm not sure about the chances of Smash 4 being a Sunday game next year (since there's a ton of other games that would provide diversity to the Sunday line-up & actually have devs who support their respective games in a big way), but a prime-time Saturday time slot would be well-appreciated & a good compromise between the Smash scene & the rest of the FGC who may not be fans of the Smash games.

Anyone with eyes could have told you that Sm4sh wasn't going to go like Brawl, and if they did seriously think it then they just weren't paying attention (which wouldn't surprise me, they clearly didn't pay attention to how to run Pokken). The continued (since launch and competitive balancing) support guaranteed it, and the reactions (and growing "hype") to new characters should have made it very clear that people weren't just going to disappear.

All of this was happening as early as the last EVO, so, really, that conclusion is nonsense, frankly.

This EVO was about SFV + the ESPN deal + the Stadium "hype" on Sunday, everything else was thrown by the wayside if it ended up on Saturday. If Melee had been on Saturday, it probably would have been treated just as badly.

Like I said in another thread, I just think Smash 4 has some sort of stigma against it, especially from Melee players. I've seen a lot of negative comments against it like "BRAWL 2.0", "TR4SH", etc, lot of people thinking the game is extremely boring and slow to watch in comparison to Melee, etc.

At this point, I think the communities as a whole have more or less come to terms with one another. Its more that the trolls are just left over now. I think the biggest fear was that Sm4sh/Nintendo would try to muscle out Melee but the former found its own grove and the latter ended up just supporting both.

 

[Neoxon]

Anyone with eyes could have told you that Sm4sh wasn't going to go like Brawl, and if they did seriously think it then they just weren't paying attention (which wouldn't surprise me, they clearly didn't pay attention to how to run Pokken). The continued (since launch and competitive balancing) support guaranteed it, and the reactions (and growing "hype") to new characters should have made it very clear that people weren't just going to disappear.

All of this was happening as early as the last EVO, so, really, that conclusion is nonsense, frankly.

But as of when EVO was scheduled this year, the FGC tolerated Melee more than Smash 4. Couple that with what I mentioned earlier, & you have the compressed hot mess of a schedule that Smash 4 had this year. Of course, if the perception of Melee being the less-hated Smash game in the greater FGC remains the same, Melee will stay the only Smash game on Sunday. And while some could argue that both Smash games should be on Sunday (& going by entrants, you'd be right), the rest of the FGC wouldn't take too kindly to that. This is why I've been arguing for a Saturday night Top 8 for Smash 4, it'd be a great compromise between the Smash scene & the FGC as a whole.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Anyone with eyes could have told you that Sm4sh wasn't going to go like Brawl, and if they did seriously think it then they just weren't paying attention (which wouldn't surprise me, they clearly didn't pay attention to how to run Pokken). The continued (since launch and competitive balancing) support guaranteed it, and the reactions (and growing "hype") to new characters should have made it very clear that people weren't just going to disappear.

All of this was happening as early as the last EVO, so, really, that conclusion is nonsense, frankly.

Agreed

 

[Vena]

But as of when EVO was scheduled this year, the FGC tolerated Melee more than Smash 4. Couple that with what I mentioned earlier, & you have the compressed hot mess of a schedule that Smash 4 had this year. Of course, if the perception of Melee being the less-hated Smash game in the greater FGC remains the same, Melee will stay the only Smash game on Sunday. And while some could argue that both Smash games should be on Sunday (& going by entrants, you'd be right), the rest of the FGC wouldn't take too kindly to that. This is why I've been arguing for a Saturday night Top 8 for Smash 4, it'd be a great compromise between the Smash scene & the FGC as a whole.

This should be irrelevant. It shouldn't be about the "FGC" tolerating two fighting games just because they don't conform to their definition of a "fighting game" and EVO shouldn't be following in such nonsensical, childish thinking. They are all fighting games.

If EVO were actually not obviously biased based on its own similar "what is FGC, Smash isn't" definitions (or, if not, for worse defining these things based on $$$$ from publishers), the number of participants would have defined Sunday as Smash, Smash, and SFV.

If the "FGC" doesn't like Smash or don't want two Smash games on Sunday then they should show it by going to EVO in numbers for all those other "FGC-approved" games, if two completely seperate Smash groups can completely eclipse everything sans a brand new release in the most venerable of the "FGC-approved" stable then... well, maybe, your community isn't actually all that big (and it gets all the more comical when Pokken outstripped a large number of them even). Of course, I don't think such a community actually exists. I think its just a bunch of old-hats who don't like something that doesn't fit a closed-loop definition of FGC.

I am quite serious when I say that, in the near future, I fully expect the Smash community to begin eclipsing the entirety of this "FGC" community that sneers at Smash. Melee is going to keep growing, and Sm4sh is a game with a long, long life ahead of it (even moreso if it does get ported and gets even more support) and its a game that a wide number of people bought. The two smash games work better off of each other to grow their mutual scenes than any of these "FGC-approved" games do. The only game that has managed to actually make its way into the hands of comparable sums of people was MKX but that has showed no longevity.

 

[Neoxon]

This should be irrelevant. It shouldn't be about the "FGC" tolerating two fighting games just because they don't conform to their definition of a "fighting game" and EVO shouldn't be following in such nonsensical, childish thinking. They are all fighting games.

If EVO were actually not obviously biased based on its own similar "what is FGC, Smash isn't" definitions (or, if not, for worse defining these things based on $$$$ from publishers), the number of participants would have defined Sunday as Smash, Smash, and SFV.

If the "FGC" doesn't like Smash or don't want two Smash games on Sundayt then they should show it by going to EVO in numbers for all those other "FGC-approved" games. Of course, I don't think such a community actually exists. I think its just a bunch of old-hats who don't like something that doesn't fit a closed-loop definition of FGC.

I am quite serious when I say that, in the near future, I fully expect the Smash community to begin eclipsing the entirety of this "FGC" community that sneers at Smash. Melee is going to keep growing, and Sm4sh is a game with a long, long life ahead of it (even moreso if it does get ported and gets even more support) and its a game that a wide number of people bought. The two smash games work better off of each other to grow their mutual scenes than any of these "FGC-approved" games do.

They kind of are with Street Fighter V, which beat both Smash 4 & Melee. As long as SFV keeps up its entrant count in the coming years, the Smash games are still gonna remain 2nd & 3rd fiddle. And by that logic, the traditional fighting games will continue to outnumber the Smash games. EVO isn't a Smash event, it's an event for the entire FGC, so everyone's opinions have to be considered.

Also, I'm not even sure if Pokkén is gonna come back given the lack of interest from spectators. That plus KoFXIV is coming out soon, so I wouldn't be surprised if EVO swaps out Pokkén for KoF (unless TPC pushes for an NX port of Pokkén, then maybe it'll have a shot at returning).

 

[Vena]

They kind of are with Street Fighter V, which beat both Smash 4 & Melee. As long as SFV keeps up its entrant count in the coming years, the Smash games are still gonna remain 2nd & 3rd fiddle. And by that logic, the traditional fighting games will continue to outnumber the Smash games. EVO isn't a Smash event, it's an event for the entire FGC, so everyone's opinions have to be considered.

No they aren't. They are just showing they want one game (SFV), so then they shouldn't care if everything but SFV gets kicked off of Sunday for Smash, Smash, and, while they're at it, bring back 64 for Sunday as well because that'd also probably get more entrants than some Sunday's offerings this year.

If they cared about the other games, those "FGC-approved" titles, they'd have signed up for them too.

 

[Neoxon]

No they aren't. They are just showing they want one game (SFV), so then they shouldn't care if everything but SFV gets kicked off of Sunday for Smash, Smash, and, while they're at it, bring back 64 for Sunday as well because that'd also probably get more entrants than some Sunday's offerings this year.

We can't be acting like we're the only ones whose opinions matter. EVO was founded on the idea of all communities being satisfied. By this logic, there should be some sort of middle-ground for Smash 4 that can keep both sides happy. And from what I've seen from both sides of the argument, a prime-time Saturday night showing for Smash 4 while Melee retains its Sunday time slot would be a great way to meet everyone half-way. Of course, expanding EVO to 4 days would be another solution, but I think one of the guys in charge of EVO shot that idea down on the Smash subreddit.

And as stated in my post before, even if one of the current Sunday games (say, UMvC3) gets moved to Saturday, Tekken 7 would most likely be first in line to take up that spot (because Bandai Namco).