balladofwindfishes
Member
No Miis
Invalid list
Tires don exits
Invalid list
Tires don exits
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Super Smash Bros. Community Thread |OT| Next Super Smash Bros. Discussion
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
- Start date
Nocturnowl
Member
I went online for the first time in months the other day and spent 13 matches straight losing to a Mega Man main, I can believe that he's pretty good.
I also believe that For Glory's insistence on flat stages is rich creamy bullshit.
I also believe that For Glory's insistence on flat stages is rich creamy bullshit.
MrSaturn99
Member
Breaks my heart to see Dedede that low.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Isn't Roy the best Home Run contest person?
I'm pretty sure 1 frame minus max charge Flare Blade is the single strongest attack in the entire game.
I'm pretty sure 1 frame minus max charge Flare Blade is the single strongest attack in the entire game.
He costs money so instantly drops six places.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Speaking of which, the first batch of DLC characters have been in the game so long, sometimes I forget they were DLC.
I actually forget just yesterday that Lucas was DLC while thinking about the roster.
I actually forget just yesterday that Lucas was DLC while thinking about the roster.
Green Mamba
Member
There are now two characters in between Pit and Dark Pit on the tier list? That seems strange.
Red Arremer
Member
Poor Zelda, doomed to be forever stuck in Bottom Tier.
fredrancour
Member
of all characters, I'm not surprised that mega man is one that it took longer for people to get good with. It feels so weird having pellets instead of melee hits for some A moves that my brain was totally lost at how spacing should feel with him for ages (then again I play pikachu the most, where two of my primary weapons are my face and butt, so I'm biased). He's projectile heavy but doesn't really thrive by camping. There's also the slick footstool tricks, which people might've shrugged off as too hard to land
The tiers as reflected here are also definitely slightly voted based on perceived potential even if only by some panelists. Otherwise, I feel like pikachu would be a lot lower, and ryu maybe slightly lower. Those two ratings definitely seem to be based on ideas like "it'll be terrifying if trela gets more consistent/other ryus level up" and "pikachu still has potential and esam's just kind of been choking lately cause pikachu's weight and inconsistent kill options make the volatility worse."
I really hope that one day omega mode switchs to a combo of a stage hazard toggle and a "less crazy layout" toggle that varies from FD to battlefield to maybe other simple layouts based on whichever stage.
I keep forgetting mewtwo's dlc cause i got him free for buying both games and haven't bought any other dlc.
This might be a product of how this list is made by averaging a bunch of others. The changes between them are...arrows and side-b, i think?
IIRC pit's arrows are better for edgeguarding and the buffed up dark pit sideb wasn't as useful as people thought at first.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Nintendo's official tournaments (like the recent one with kids) use a stage list that's perfectly acceptable, so it's not like they don't know what stages are tournament proper or not.
FD
BF
Town and City
Smashville
Dreamland
Lylat
It's not complicated. That list is a pretty safe list with a good amount of variety without anything weird. Maybe throw Duck Hunt in there as well, although I'm personally not a fan of that stage in competitive.
FD
BF
Town and City
Smashville
Dreamland
Lylat
It's not complicated. That list is a pretty safe list with a good amount of variety without anything weird. Maybe throw Duck Hunt in there as well, although I'm personally not a fan of that stage in competitive.
I used to main MM two years ago and I had to stop playing him because keeping up with the best players required insane setups that I was not able to pull off and got soured and salty with the character. It's a very creative character, like Toon Link, so it was a matter of falling in hands of the right player(s).
Toon Link is another character with crazy mindgames that I recently learned of and experienced first hand: footstool dair combos, bomb juggling and a projectile game that's just simply nuts.
GiantBreadbug
Member
I love seeing how the meta develops by observing tier lists, but what I love more is the scenario where a low tier character beats a top tier one. What can I say, I love underdogs.
It's 2016 and you're still going to use deprecated terms like tier whore?
I don't even fully disagree with you (though tier lists are based on both character potential & tournament results. See Corrin's placement's). But pre-emptively dumping on a group of player seems pointless. Let people use who they want to use. If little billy uses top tier characters exclusively to win, then good on him. If big john uses low tier characters exclusively then good on him too. There's no "right" way to play Smash.
Yeah it's weird. Probably because it was decided democratically. In reality, Pit is just straight up better than Dark Pit.
Dabuz tends to do this often with Olimar because literally nobody knows how to fight that character.
balladofwindfishes
Member
I actually like Dark Pit's side special more than Pit's.
I think Pit's voice is a bit annoying too, I prefer Dark Pit's voice.
I think Pit's voice is a bit annoying too, I prefer Dark Pit's voice.
I think you're right. Ganondorf is a concept (extreme read heavy character, which kills opponents in three hits), that Sakurai wants to get right, but fails through his similarity to Captain Falcon. He really needs to rethink him completely, if the concept has any chance of working.
Zelda is similar stuck in limbo, because she is supposed to be the opposite of Shiek. I guess, they figured out the limitation of the 3DS (to make character transformation work) to late and only had time to put time into one of the two. Zelda got the short stick, while Shiek worked great. At least in this regard they are mirror images ...
Because it's 2016 and it's still a thing? I just talked specifically about this guy that goes "lololo X character is so bad and useless" and then goes to say "yea X was always gud", without knowing how that chart was made and what are the implications since it makes character discussion so pointless. I respect those who want to win and push the game forward in their own way, my rant was not against them.
I've been browsing Smashboards since 2005 and I still fail to see why tiers are that important for community beyond telling you which are the
Each character deserves due respect, even more in this game, where the players' abilities are so evident regardless the character.
But again, that's my stance and I'm probably alone on this, so yeah.
GiantBreadbug
Member
Actually I'm on board with everything you said. Rings true for how I feel as well.
Also, I don't really actively hate on people who exclusively play top tier characters, but you'll never find me rooting for them. Watching what people can do with the rest of the cast is much more exciting to me, and fortunately I get to see a lot of that since Smash 4 has such a variety of decent characters.
A lot of people do. In fact, tons of people were claiming that Dark Pit overshadowed Pit after the Side B buff. But the truth is, that move is pretty mediocre in high level play, and Pit's arrows are way better than Dark Pit's. When you also add in the fact that Pit's Side tilt is objectively better than Dark Pit's, then you pretty much have no reason to pick Dark Pit at higher levels (aside from liking him more, of course). Here's a good example of what I mean:
Tweek (Cloud) vs Earth (Pit)
Earth completely wrecks the shit out of Cloud, and Pit's arrows were pretty important.
My bad, I completely misread your post. I thought you were dumping on people who choose to play the best characters. In any case, yeah can't stand arrogant, myopic frauds who can't think on their own. These types of players never truly get good to begin with.
I don't think tier lists are the end all be all, but they're nonetheless a pretty important baseline of the metagame. A rough snapshot of what the metagame might look like. And they're important to consider if you want to play in tournaments. You're obviously going to want to practice against the top tiers, but you might also consider investing in a lower tier character because people aren't prepared to fight them. But yeah, people who treat them like the bible are obnoxious.
TheDinoman
Member
Triforce141
Member
Ganondorf is going to face negativity no matter what happens to his moves / animations
"We need more faithful; decloned Ganondorf" vs "I like grampa falcondorf, any change is unacceptable"
There's also the fact that Mario got his tornado replaced by FLUDD, all of Pit's specials (though similar in function) got reworked from Brawl to Smash 4; Project M Wario got Shoulder Bash, and nobody complained about those changes. Why should Ganondorf be an exception to that form of reception?
"We need more faithful; decloned Ganondorf" vs "I like grampa falcondorf, any change is unacceptable"
There's also the fact that Mario got his tornado replaced by FLUDD, all of Pit's specials (though similar in function) got reworked from Brawl to Smash 4; Project M Wario got Shoulder Bash, and nobody complained about those changes. Why should Ganondorf be an exception to that form of reception?
TheDinoman
Member
Like, sorry Captain Ganondorf fans. Let's put it this way: There were a lot of people that enjoyed playing as Snake, Squirtle and Ivysaur and yet we still had to give them up and move on. So really I think the people who like playing as Ganondorf in his current state should do the same if they were to ever declone him.
The fact that is, Ganondorf is a slow, stiff, and fundamentally flawed character who will go nowhere unless something major happens to him.
balladofwindfishes
Member
They could always just leave Dorf alone and add Beast Ganon
That's a good idea
That's a good idea
Wizard Ganondorf from that mod looks really fun to play. Seems like a magic based version of Peach. I'd glady have something like that in the game but would like if they added some Twilight Princess and Wind Waker stuff too.
I wish that for a newer Smash characters finally got a big rework. I love Smash 4 but many of the older characters (as in, introduced in 64 or Melee) could use a big revision.
I wish that for a newer Smash characters finally got a big rework. I love Smash 4 but many of the older characters (as in, introduced in 64 or Melee) could use a big revision.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Wizard Ganondorf in that mod falls into the same trap a lot of Brawl mods do by making tons of really flashy and elaborate animations.
Nobody in "real" Smash does any of that. Because Ganondorf flipping his opponents around and whatever in a 4 second long throw animation is just a giant red flag saying "PUNCH ME" in anything that's not 1v1.
I'd say Mewtwo has the flashiest throws in the series (forward and up), and even those really aren't as elaborate or long. Although as a kid, Mewtwo's forward throw blew my mind because of how complicated it seemed (and because it seems clearly inspired by the movie).
Nobody in "real" Smash does any of that. Because Ganondorf flipping his opponents around and whatever in a 4 second long throw animation is just a giant red flag saying "PUNCH ME" in anything that's not 1v1.
I'd say Mewtwo has the flashiest throws in the series (forward and up), and even those really aren't as elaborate or long. Although as a kid, Mewtwo's forward throw blew my mind because of how complicated it seemed (and because it seems clearly inspired by the movie).
I liked the floating mechanics. Like moving while charging the energy ball. By the way, having a tennis projectile would be such a crappy move it impresses me the guy from the video actually wants that. I mean, there's a reason Dedede's gordos aren't very good outside of ledge traps.
balladofwindfishes
Member
There's stuff they could do to Ganondorf to make him still feel like his old self, while losing most/all of Falcon's roots.
Add a charge to Warlock Punch. So if you tap it, it's classic Warlock Punch, but hold the button down and Ganondorf charges an energy attack. You wouldn't be able to hold the charge or anything like that, it would be more like Mega Man's side smash.
Down Special can be that slam attack. It's thematically similar to Wizard's Foot, and "close enough" in function to not be a total redo. Pit's Down Special is similar, in that it's an entirely new move, but is similar in function to Pit's old Down Special, just with enough changes that it feels like a new move.
His Side Special is already fine.
I have no idea what to do with his Up Special. Besides a hover or whatever, but I'm not a huge fan of that because it feels like too much recovery for Ganondorf. And it take a little away from Peach's gimmick.
And they don't necessarily have to change Ganondorf, either. If they change some of Falcon's moves, Ganondorf then has a unique move. Toon Link and Roy both had this. Link's Dash Attack changed, and Marth's neutral special changed, leaving Toon Link and Roy with unique animations/functions for those, despite not changing. I think Falcon's Down Throw is a good example of this. Falcon's a strong dude, but one handedly chucking an enemy down into a slam fits Ganondorf a lot more, and Falcon is generic enough that they could make up whatever as a replacement Down Throw.
I'm not a fan of making Ganondorf all magic. There's a certain symmetry with the three Triforce holders in Smash. Link is gadgets and a sword, Zelda is magic, and Ganondorf is brutal close combat. That fits their Triforce roles perfectly, and giving Ganondorf a magic based move set loses that balance between the three.
Ganondorf is a really awkward and tricky character to fix. Because there's a certain nostalgia to his clone origins. And he doesn't use a consistent attack system in his three games. But he's an incredibly important character to his series, and there's a feeling that he's "above" hanging with characters like Doctor Mario and Falco, who are fairly minor characters. He should have the same care as Bowser, Mewtwo and Dedede. But he doesn't. Despite how important he is to Zelda history, and Zelda is the third biggest series in Smash (not by character count, by series size).
It's why I'm such a big fan of bringing Ganon into Smash, because that gives them a way out, in a way. It still leaves Ganondorf a mess, but at least Zelda has a proper villain they can make a proper move set for, and Ganondorf can stop being one of the main villains of Smash Bros, despite being a semi-clone of a race care driver turned action hero.
Add a charge to Warlock Punch. So if you tap it, it's classic Warlock Punch, but hold the button down and Ganondorf charges an energy attack. You wouldn't be able to hold the charge or anything like that, it would be more like Mega Man's side smash.
Down Special can be that slam attack. It's thematically similar to Wizard's Foot, and "close enough" in function to not be a total redo. Pit's Down Special is similar, in that it's an entirely new move, but is similar in function to Pit's old Down Special, just with enough changes that it feels like a new move.
His Side Special is already fine.
I have no idea what to do with his Up Special. Besides a hover or whatever, but I'm not a huge fan of that because it feels like too much recovery for Ganondorf. And it take a little away from Peach's gimmick.
And they don't necessarily have to change Ganondorf, either. If they change some of Falcon's moves, Ganondorf then has a unique move. Toon Link and Roy both had this. Link's Dash Attack changed, and Marth's neutral special changed, leaving Toon Link and Roy with unique animations/functions for those, despite not changing. I think Falcon's Down Throw is a good example of this. Falcon's a strong dude, but one handedly chucking an enemy down into a slam fits Ganondorf a lot more, and Falcon is generic enough that they could make up whatever as a replacement Down Throw.
I'm not a fan of making Ganondorf all magic. There's a certain symmetry with the three Triforce holders in Smash. Link is gadgets and a sword, Zelda is magic, and Ganondorf is brutal close combat. That fits their Triforce roles perfectly, and giving Ganondorf a magic based move set loses that balance between the three.
Ganondorf is a really awkward and tricky character to fix. Because there's a certain nostalgia to his clone origins. And he doesn't use a consistent attack system in his three games. But he's an incredibly important character to his series, and there's a feeling that he's "above" hanging with characters like Doctor Mario and Falco, who are fairly minor characters. He should have the same care as Bowser, Mewtwo and Dedede. But he doesn't. Despite how important he is to Zelda history, and Zelda is the third biggest series in Smash (not by character count, by series size).
It's why I'm such a big fan of bringing Ganon into Smash, because that gives them a way out, in a way. It still leaves Ganondorf a mess, but at least Zelda has a proper villain they can make a proper move set for, and Ganondorf can stop being one of the main villains of Smash Bros, despite being a semi-clone of a race care driver turned action hero.
Green Mamba
Member
Ganon can get in when they get over Ridley's size hangups.
He really isn't difficult to fix though. The nostalgia you're referring to is mostly limited to Brawl because Melee Ganondorf sure as heck didn't move and fight like an old man. But you're right, 0 effort or care was put into him in Smash 4—Not that I blame them, Twilight Princess Ganondorf is terrible— But if he has to be carried over in the next game, the least they could do is give him energy ball attack, which is arguably his signature move. Also i'm not sure you're so averse to him floating; Floating is literally his thing, and it wouldn't have to function like Peach's (remember Pit's old Up B? Think that). It'd also (presumably) help with his recovery, and we all know he needs it.
Also did you just diss Falco. He's like the only tolerable Star Fox character i'll wreck you.
MrSaturn99
Member
I generally play with everyone but Ganondorf's one of the few characters I hardly touch, so I'd be cool with a rehaul.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
IF Tires don't exists then how could we drive around? :x
People don't like it when Zelda is actually good in Project M.
Regarding that mod, I don't really imagine Ganondorf going around floating a bit off the ground like Mewtwo. He's always depicted walking around on his feet. Floating for an Up-B move I can imagine since that's what he does in OoT. But at all times? Nope.
Unfortunately, Miitomo has now confirmed that Ridley is no bigger than a Mii's shoulder. He's now too small(!) for Smash.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
The problem with smash is that fast, mobile characters are generally more advantageous and are favored by the mechanics unless you have a really good gimmick.
Also, big characters that hit hard always tend to have the "balance" baggage (slow, big target, not as nimble) which rather than make them balanced, ironically puts them at a disadvantage instead.
Makes you wonder. What if Smash has a "defense" stat too to mitigate the problem? Increase or decrease damage received. I mean sure, I guess weight class works that way, but still.
Also, big characters that hit hard always tend to have the "balance" baggage (slow, big target, not as nimble) which rather than make them balanced, ironically puts them at a disadvantage instead.
Makes you wonder. What if Smash has a "defense" stat too to mitigate the problem? Increase or decrease damage received. I mean sure, I guess weight class works that way, but still.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Ganon scales down pretty well. Big blue boar Ganon is like two Toon Link's tall in his own games, that aren't Link Between Worlds where he's like 5 Toon Links tall.
.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20131118083733)
Looks fine at normal Link height
The only top tier heavy in the series had basically infinite recovery and silly projectile shenanigans (Snake)
DK has a decent balance between weight and speed as well. As do Wario and Ike, who are on the heavier side.
balladofwindfishes
Member
I think the 3DS classic mode is the best version of classic mode in the series.
Wii U classic mode is garbage
MrSaturn99
Member
I personally love both and don't really get the criticism for the Wii U one. I actually enjoy most of Smash 4's solo modes.
Also YAS @ Smash Run for NX. All that potential music... *swoon*
Also YAS @ Smash Run for NX. All that potential music... *swoon*
Rage is one of the reasons why heavies are a bit more viable in Smash 4. But yeah, in a game with mobility as high as Smash it's though making heavy slow characters good. Dedede for example seems very fairly designed but he's still not very good mainly thanks to his size. Like the only realistic buff I can see for him is making Gordos harder to reflect.
Buffing his Gordos wouldn't really fix the character. All I see it doing is making him more irritating to fight.
I think reducing his jump squat (the time it takes for him to jump off the ground), cutting the start up on some of his moves (his attacks are ridiculously slow, ESPECIALLY back air which was made 10x worse for no reason) and improving his air speed would make him a good character.
Unlike the other heavies, he has some seriously bad normal attacks.
TheDinoman
Member
lol
Anyways looking at Smash 4's current tier list, I think it's really weird to see Mewtwo be considered really good in an official Smash game.
I dunno, he just seemed like one of those characters generally doomed to mediocrity like Roy or Zelda. That's what it looked like at first when he was released before they buffed the shit out of him.
balladofwindfishes
Member
The thing with Ice Climbers for me, is that this just feels like a one game "pause" on using them, and they'll be right back in the next time around
Versus the three cut Pokemon, which are likely never being added again. Unless Pichu gets in based entirely on how easy he is to remake, much like Doc.
Versus the three cut Pokemon, which are likely never being added again. Unless Pichu gets in based entirely on how easy he is to remake, much like Doc.