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Supernatural Season 12 |OT| Mama, I'm Coming Home
- Thread starter PhoncipleBone
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because people getting upset over women dying isnt a new revelation over the past few years. so many men die and noone bats an eyelid, like that dude that died because of mary. but but you have other one off character die and its a problem. tasha wasnt even a character before and people are losing their shit over her dying. like i said, people havent made that much of a stink over men who have died similarly fucked up
BoxManLocke
Member
Male characters die in heavily male-dominated tv show, yes. Of course it's going to happen.
There was a recent episode, I think it was episode 18, that didn't feature a single female character who had lines to speak.
When you take into account the lack of good female characters, of course the fans are going to go nuts when they kill the best ones for shock value and/or in an OOC way.
a monster of the week episode focusing on the brothers? say it isnt so. still doesnt take away the lack of remorse for most dead men that a lot of women characters do. tasha and alicia are the best women characters? alicia was an auxiliary character in her first appearance and she throws up deathflags in her last appearance, only to die and comeback in a diminished capacity. tasha was a literal plot device. i can get being upset about eileen seeing as how she brings a different perspective to the hunt, but she was on borrowed time as her last appearance. they could have off screened her like they have other characters in the past. like i said before, they still have far more women as allies than they do men.
Gibbs
Member
Teaser for next week posted by Misha and Jared on Facebook . Be warned there could be massive spoilers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUvtbYtZo8k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUvtbYtZo8k
I wonder who that is coming out of the grave. I'm hoping its Bobby, but thinking it could be Michael(to start the whole apocalypse storyline, or John Winchester.
I have a feeling Mary or Castiel will die. Plz don't kill Cass.
I have a feeling Mary or Castiel will die. Plz don't kill Cass.
Both actors can really impress you at any time.
My favorite Jensen moment was when he lost his memory and was trying to remind himself in the mirror, it was amazing and Jensen really sold it.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
People thinking the show has issues with female characters is very much an opinion. How could you even begin to possibly deny that? And they have every right to express their grievances without someone telling them 'get over it' because he or she has the opinion that there is nothing wrong with the show's status quo.
Edit: As for female hunters being shown as top hunters well off the top my head, in no particular order, the top 10 I can recall are ...
Dean
Sam
John
Mary
Bobby
Rufus
Garth
Gordon
Samuel
Technically Ketch
DarkHeartedKill
Member
Shit...stop that right now lol.
I don't have a problem with them killing female characters per se, it's just recently they kill them in the stupidest and lamest way possible.
Ellen, and Jo dying made sense, Ash had information, demons(possibly Azazel) burned the place down, fine.
Most male deaths make sense, Kevin gets killed to stop him from reading the Word of God and interfering with Metatrons diabolical plans. Rufus gets killed by KHAAAAAAN worm possessing Bobby. Ash died with Ellen & Jo. Bobby gets killed via headshot by Dick who claims to be a master marksmen(or has a deadly shot or something).
Charlie? Dies in bathtub by a one armed, unarmed man while wielding a blade and taking on one of the other Stein Bros who had two arms, and she had no weapon.
Eileen hellhound at the beginning like some random character
I'm drawing blanks right now because I haven't rewatched the series since season 10, so help would be nice
.Garth in your top 10?
Shit...stop that right now lol.
I don't have a problem with them killing female characters per se, it's just recently they kill them in the stupidest and lamest way possible.
Ellen, and Jo dying made sense, Ash had information, demons(possibly Azazel) burned the place down, fine.
Most male deaths make sense, Kevin gets killed to stop him from reading the Word of God and interfering with Metatrons diabolical plans. Rufus gets killed by KHAAAAAAN worm possessing Bobby. Ash died with Ellen & Jo. Bobby gets killed via headshot by Dick who claims to be a master marksmen(or has a deadly shot or something).
Charlie? Dies in bathtub by a one armed, unarmed man while wielding a blade and taking on one of the other Stein Bros who had two arms, and she had no weapon.
Eileen hellhound at the beginning like some random character
I'm drawing blanks right now because I haven't rewatched the series since season 10, so help would be nice
Ash was dead long before Elle and jo. They died killing a hellhound, he died in a burning building.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Considering he takes over the role of Bobby and earns Dean's blessing in doing so, yes. Unless you don't think Bobby belongs in it.
Also if you're going to nitpick about a single entry then you've basically pointed the exception that proves the rule.
The Silver
Member
I don't see this as a woman only problem in terms of the numbers, they kill almost every damn side character eventually, like we just got done with them killing Mick right as he was evolving into a better character, it's bullshit.
The difference with the women is that the ones that die tend to be allies or move to being neutral so their deaths serve as motivation for the brothers while the men are more often villains or antagonistic so their deaths are more in and of themselves.
Guess it doesn't help that the big 4 main characters are all men.
The difference with the women is that the ones that die tend to be allies or move to being neutral so their deaths serve as motivation for the brothers while the men are more often villains or antagonistic so their deaths are more in and of themselves.
Guess it doesn't help that the big 4 main characters are all men.
There's more to being a hunter than being knowledgeable. He's book smart but he's not in the same class as those listed. Chrissy is a better hunter than him. Her friends too for that matter the in the little time that I've seen them. Hell Jody is physically more impressive than garth(pre werewolf anyway.)
And what rule are you talking about in this instance?
DarkHeartedKill
Member
Loool like I said bad memory. It came back to me now, still makes more sense than how Charlie & Eileen died. Ellen and Jo died protecting the boys by blowing up the store(well Jo died due to her wounds, or went unconscious). I miss them ;(
Okay, hold on.
That HAS to be Michael, right? It can't be Bobby unless the actor was purposefully lying on Twitter when he said he's not in the season at all, for the first time ever.
And there's no way that it's John since JDM is a bit busy. So the only other dramatic return would be Michael, I would think.
It's also worth noting that this confirms Mary is there at the confrontation with Lucifer. Not a single hint of Crowley though.
And there's no way that it's John since JDM is a bit busy. So the only other dramatic return would be Michael, I would think.
It's also worth noting that this confirms Mary is there at the confrontation with Lucifer. Not a single hint of Crowley though.
Gibbs
Member
I don't think Michael makes much sense because Chuck said he didn't have time to rebuild Michael to take on Amara, so I doubt it's him. If it is,Chuck is again aiding from the sidelines. It looks like the person walking with the gun has a gut, and the only person I know who has that gut is our beloved idjit'isms Bobby Singer. Though it could be the way it looks. Whoever it is, how did they rise from the dead, unless Lucifer is doing this... or Joshua from heaven is sending help.
I see Jody Mills with the boys so I assume she is still alive or will be when they meet up with her. They can't kill her! They said in this episode she was already dead, so I see the British Men of Letters are chalking up victories before they happen.
Could the person also be Mick? I doubt it but its a possibility.
Didn't Crowley jump to the rat before Lucifer knifed him in the chest? Thats what I am thinking as the rat followed the demons dragging his body out of the room
I see Jody Mills with the boys so I assume she is still alive or will be when they meet up with her. They can't kill her! They said in this episode she was already dead, so I see the British Men of Letters are chalking up victories before they happen.
Could the person also be Mick? I doubt it but its a possibility.
Didn't Crowley jump to the rat before Lucifer knifed him in the chest? Thats what I am thinking as the rat followed the demons dragging his body out of the room
Gibbs
Member
JESUS CHRIST.
GUYS.
THIS MAN HAS A GUT.
HE HAS A GUT.
THAT IS BOBBY GOD DAMN SINGER.
It's what I am hoping for! Though part of me thinks it could be Crowley also.
That would be super lame and anti-climactic. Haha.
Unless
it's some crazy future human version of Crowley
Gibbs
Member
Hmm.
As Crowley would say "sounds sexy."
I'm really pushing for Bobby though. It's not a season of Supernatural unless he makes an appearance. He is like Jody, make one appearance. Unless they are going to introduce someone new.
I could see them having Lucifer kill Castiel, then bring Bobby back to fill the void.. Though the show wouldn't be the same without Cass. I imagine they'd bring him back at some point but he's my favorite outside of Crowley.
I'm really pushing for Bobby though. It's not a season of Supernatural unless he makes an appearance. He is like Jody, make one appearance. Unless they are going to introduce someone new.
I could see them having Lucifer kill Castiel, then bring Bobby back to fill the void.. Though the show wouldn't be the same without Cass. I imagine they'd bring him back at some point but he's my favorite outside of Crowley.
It does feel weird that the actor who plays
Bobby said on Twitter at least two times this season something about not coming back. In December, he tweeted something like, "Looks like this will be the first season of Supernatural I haven't been in." A couple weeks back, he tweeted at Andrew Dabb, something along the lines of, "Let's try to get something together in the fall. I'll miss a season but not a year on IMDB!"
I was wondering if they were trying to screw with people.
But really, I'm incredibly curious about that entire scene. Where are they? Who are the people dressed weird like they're in some post apocalyptic world? Who is the one with a gun? What the hell are those sci-fi-looking structures in the ground?
rackham
Banned
So those characters don't count to you because they weren't originally hunters...right. Forget the fact that they weren't before but are extremely skilled now. Yeah. Good job.
So the girls get killed sadisitically and the guys die of flower scents. Sure.
People want so very hard for there to be something here where there's not.
Also fuck the dbag who called me trump over supernatural.
Hi, that was me.
Yeah, you're acting ridiculous. Thee is a clear problem with how women in the show are treated. To the point where Misha Collins himself called it out.
Sorry man, that's your "fact."
rackham
Banned
Misha Collins isn't the end all argument to this. Name some female characters and male characters who's deaths were treated differently please. Name some male human characters who have been given the power that normal female characters have.
Rowena is one of the most powerful human characters on the she has had the silliest survival rate.
DarkHeartedKill
Member
I named a few up top. Recently males get more honourable or logical deaths while female deaths are just we have no more use for you, so we give you a shitty death.
Rowena is like the one exceptional female. And one of the few recently that made sense since Lucifer dispises humans.
Charlie was awesome, but they gave her a bitch death.
Bela was an amazing antagonist for the boys but was literally killed off because fangirls hated that she caused them trouble.
Eileen was great but she got too close to Sammy so off with her!
One of the few females that survived was the one Dean ended up with at the end of Season 5. But they wiped her memory, therefore no longer a love interest to Dean and therefore she gets to live.
Pretty much anytime a female gets too close, or causes the boys trouble they die. Rowena survives because she's helping them but won't date em. The moment she caused em TROUBLE OFF WITH HER HEAD!
Charlie's death was horrifically stupid and was based around the entire of idea of writing here as a stereotypical "woman who can't handle being around another woman."
Eileen's death was based around them introducing a strong female character, a deaf character, and killing her off for shock value without even giving her a single line.
Kevin? Went out in a shocking way but had plenty of episodes to give his character growth. And we've seen him twice since then. And his death wasn't dumb and out of character. Or how about Garth, who they actually gave a happy ending to rather than kill off.
There is a problem with killing too many characters in general but females get treated badly on the show in general. This has been known for a number of years now and people here are certainly not the first to mention it. It's why Misha Collins himself agreed, which is of course an important fact despite you brushing it off. It's why a fan awkwardly asked the cast a question about their treatment of women at San Diego Comic Con after Charlie was killed.
I'm sorry you disagree. But get out of here with that pretentious "it's not an opinion, I am the end all on this matter. fact." bullshit.
rackham
Banned
This is ridiculous. Everyone dies who is close to Sam and dean. Just because some females have doesn't change the fact that anyone close to them dies.
I honestly don't understand what you were tying to say at the end with Rowena. She's a piece of shit like Crowley and the British hunters. She should die. What the fuck are you talking about dating for
Edit. @zeo Charlie was maybe the only character who went from nothing to another one of the most powerful characters on the show- BY HER OWN POWER. No god battery backing her up like Kevin. There's nothin pretentious by pointing out how ridiculous the argument is. No one has given any real examples of differences between males and females. In fact, id say females are shown to be stronger emotionally and smarter tactically than the males on the show. It's quite amazing how people here see it
DarkHeartedKill
Member
Look how long they were around for. Seasons upon seasons. How long do the females last? And I'm talking about dating because any female that is a love interest or has a connection with the boys just die. How many episodes was Bobby & Kevin around for? How long was Eileen around for? Charlie got a bitch death that made no sense to her character. At all. Like zero. She is not the type to get into female drama, or the type to leave with the most powerful book. yet suddenly Rowena makes her do both?
Yes, thank you for backing up my point.
The writers did that. And then they had her act completely out of character, as if she never made that growth, in the episode they killed her off in. Instead, they had her be stupid and leave the safe building she was in because she didn't like being around another woman.
To be fair, Michael isn't dead dead. When God said that, he was talking specifically about Gabriel ( ) and Raphael. Michael is alive, but supposedly lost his mind while locked in the cage. Supposedly. But I agree with you that it still probably isn't him, though I want it it to be. Bobby?
( ) and Raphael. Michael is alive, but supposedly lost his mind while locked in the cage. Supposedly. But I agree with you that it still probably isn't him, though I want it it to be. Bobby?are you really comparing eileen a literal random hunter to either bobby or kevin? actually, im gonna scratch that because by your own definition, kevin wouldnt count if he was a woman because he isnt of dating age of the boys. but thats kinda the crux of the show itself. how many people are around sam and dean that are possibly in the same age range regardless of gender?
yeah, it did. it started up a new line of characters willing to sacrifice themselves for family. whether it plays out from here is yet to be seen
NoblesseOblige
Banned
That rest the list is accurate, and thus the statement I was quoting of top hunters being female was an inaccurate one. And Garth was a solo hunter who managed on his own without getting offed. More than can be said about most hunters. Krissy worked in a group and still ran into trouble against basic vampires. Information and knowledge is far more valuable than strength when you're dealing with nigh-immortal beings.
Plus how many other hunters have killed the Tooth Fairy?
Miles Quaritch
Member
That episode was weird as fuck.
From the cold opening of killing the hunter to Crowley 'dying' to Mary turning on the brothers. It was all over the place and yet by the end I still didn't have a good idea of where it was all headed.
Lucy standing on the mountain top was hilarious though and I'm glad he's back in play. And of course Crowley isn't dead, I'm going to say that rat we see running after the body is where Crowley is holed up...
The Mary arc...is weird. I don't know what else to say. I'm sure the Nephilim will probably help her regain her conciousness or something along those lines, but it's an odd direction to take and came out of nowhere.
From the cold opening of killing the hunter to Crowley 'dying' to Mary turning on the brothers. It was all over the place and yet by the end I still didn't have a good idea of where it was all headed.
Lucy standing on the mountain top was hilarious though and I'm glad he's back in play. And of course Crowley isn't dead, I'm going to say that rat we see running after the body is where Crowley is holed up...
The Mary arc...is weird. I don't know what else to say. I'm sure the Nephilim will probably help her regain her conciousness or something along those lines, but it's an odd direction to take and came out of nowhere.
The Silver
Member
I still can't believe how badly Crowley fucked this up, having the whole thing turn around on you to that degree? That's some Trumpian incompetence.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I'm more surprised that Lucifer was going to be sated with simply executing Crowley for once, given that his primary sin was pride and he's prone to keeping his enemies captive to gloat over. I guess he finally seen Crowley as a threat.
... or it's just another example of poor writing.
The way Lucifer escaped was lazy. "The thing keeping you under Crowley's control is randomly shifting that control to you." But, why? What caused that to happen?
It was obvious that Lucifer was going to escape, but it's just really disappointing he had nothing to actually do with it.
It was obvious that Lucifer was going to escape, but it's just really disappointing he had nothing to actually do with it.
Krissy didn't run into trouble with hunting vampires, the problems stemmed from the vampires being innocent of the crimes they were being blamed for. They had no problem dropping them otherwise. And assuming they continued on their training they've probably bagged a considerable amount of monsters by now. And hunters managing on their own isn't a terrific feat seeing as how most hunters are loners by nature and at the same time aren't boxing outside their weight class. I like garth, he's one of the best characters on the show, but for what I've seen of him, even with the were skills, I would still keep him in the bunker as the knowledge feed. And information is nice, but as the American men of letters showed, without the force behind it, you're still just food. Which is why Bobby was the most dangerous of all the hunters.
The thing I don't get is how no one has questioned where Mary's been all this time. Not the brothers, not other hunters, no one. The brothers have been to both hell and heaven and nobody has seen her to the point that a lot of us assumed her soul was destroyed, but here she is outta literal nowhere and no one is looking the gift horse in the mouth
BoxManLocke
Member
What does that even mean ?
As of right now the only thing Alicia's death created was a 20 seconds monologue from Dean revolving on themes the show has explored literally dozens of times before and in much better ways.
I don't need another character death to tell me family's important. This is Supernatural, we deal with that shit all the time.
Besides the way Sam and Dean left Max alone just minutes after his entire family had died was incredibly stupid. And she got brought back as a shell who can't survive without her brother. As someone pointed out earlier, for a few years female character deaths have been handled horribly.
The general bodycount has been stupidly high this season, to the point where I'm wondering if there's going to be anyone left that they've created for season 12.
I'm hoping Mary survives so this season doesn't end up being a giant waste of time.
Get rid of Crowley and Lucifer though please
I mean, he told them to leave a few times. Are they going to just say, "No, we're standing next to you?"
He's a witch, he would make them leave if they refused to. He wanted to be alone.
I want them to do something new with Crowley (turn him fully good, please) but I am so glad you're not running the show.
Septimus Prime
Member
Concerning that trailer,
I really hope it's John. It makes no sense for it to be anyone else, as even Bobby is an old hunter friend of John's, where John didn't start hunting until after Mary's death. He'd be, at best, a solid second choice because of his relationship with everyone else (as well as the audience), but he shouldn't be connected to Mary at all.
I don't think they're hinting that this person would be connected to Mary though.
And the fact of the matter is that JDM is about to start shooting The Walking Dead again in Georgia. If they were to bring John back in some epic "masked stranger" way, it wouldn't be for a quick cameo. They would be doing it with the idea of bringing John back for an arc in season 13. As amazing as it would be to see that happen -- the scenes at the bunker with the boys and their parents would be so great -- I don't think he can.
And JDM doesn't have much of a gut where as the person in this trailer does.
And JDM doesn't have much of a gut where as the person in this trailer does.
Septimus Prime
Member
Yeah. =(
John coming back real quick for the season finale would be a good way to end the Mary arc, though. He'd come and kill everything, and they'd reunite and walk off into the sunset to go hunting together, and that would end things for both of them. It would also kind of mirror Chuck and Amara, as well.
Man, that would be an ideal ending.
It'll be interesting. I have a feeling the writers are about to go in a crazy direction here.
And I don't think we're done with Lucifer. According to a few Twitter accounts, these are quotes from Mark Pellegrino at an April convention:
"You're gonna HAAAATE me."
"I know something and I can't tell you."
Oh god.
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
Characters need to stay dead lmao.
Septimus Prime
Member
My thought is that they are going to keep Lucifer aroundnot necessarily as the big bad but an occasional antagonistsince he's the biggest bad around, and it's not going to be easy to step up higher than him again (I'm surprised they were even able to do it once, to be honest). The British Men of Letters is the big bad this season. That will probably get resolved for the most part by them killing Hess and Ketch. Lady Whatever will turn good and go home to keep the BML away in future seasons.
cartoon_soldier
Member
Castiel says "You". To me that makes John less likely.
One thought is it could be Crowley? They are going to throw the body, it could be him just coming back.
One thought is it could be Crowley? They are going to throw the body, it could be him just coming back.
cartoon_soldier
Member
Isn't Mark Pellegrino already signed for Season 13?
ooh, 13. Supernatural. Perfect season to end the show.
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