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[JohnnyPhats]

To be fair lately some of you have been just as bad as them with all this stupid back & forth . How did you all become obsessed with this stuff?

So you think it’s better to just let them do this shit unchallenged?

 

[AJUMP23]

If you don't push back you get pushed out.

 

[SF Kosmo]

The terminology chosen by these "academics" is inherently flawed because it takes a dynamic that's represented globally where ever there is a mixing of races and cultures but it frames in from a very narrow and specific American perspective. To absolutely anyone not educated in that very specific framing of the terminology, the words carry the implication of attacking a particular race, and the implication is so obvious that I really doubt it was just an unfortunate accident.

I've said this before so I'll just quote myself which captures the gist.

"The people who adopted the widespread usage of "white privilege" could have avoided so much controversy and the racially charged implications that the term conveys by instead using the term "majority privilege" since it covers 95% of the meaning.
But I know being strictly academic and diplomatic wasn't a high priority because the same people also coined "whiteness" and they practically defined it so that any and all societal ineptitudes that negatively affect minorities fall under its umbrella. The terminology was deliberately chosen by racists to demonize a specific race".

Agreed, and I would take it a step further that the notion of "privilege" is poor framing in general and leads to a lot of unnecessary consternation.

The words "privilege" and "discrimination" describe the same phenomenon. One word describes the beneficiary and the other is the victim. But there's almost zero people who would claim discrimination isn't a real thing that affects non-whites. And yet if you polled those same people, half of them would say privilege isn't real. That means privilege is a poor way to frame that conversation.

People are hardwired to see themselves as deserving of what they have. There are psychological studies on this, where they have two people play a game and they give one a clear advantage in the rules (like receiving double the points) and they will still credit their own actions to their victories.

So when you talk about any kind of privilege people inherently go "Hey, fuck you, I overcame a lot to get here, there are people who had it way easier than me, blah blah blah." But if you tell them "Hey if you had to deal with racism on top of that it would be even harder" they would go "Oh, yeah, definitely."

I'll never understand why the academic left would rather die defending these terms than to shift their rhetoric.

 

[xiskza]

They're just radical marxists, pretending to care about race and gender. Its not hard to see what their end goal is. Annihilate western culture and society.

 

[Nickolaidas]

The fact they used Blazing Saddles of all movies to make a point LMFAO

I don't think I've ever seen a movie where racism is used in such a casual and funny way that you can't help but laugh, no matter what your skin color.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

The idea here is that "whiteness" doesn't actually refer to any particular race or culture at all, that as a concept it exists to enshrine a power structure and that it gets renegotiated all the time for that purpose

this is strictly rooted in American culture and history. No other country really thinks or talks about these things this way

I get what you are saying. But I should be clear about something; over the years (and because of the way I use the internet ) which you could say is American centric, I became aware of several words/concepts that have been used in this context.

1. White privilege
2. White guilt
3. microaggressions
4. toxic masculinity
5. male gaze
6. representation, diversity, inclusion
7. critical race theory
8. now "whiteness" ...

come to mind

the issue is not you trying to explain the idea of "whiteness", but rather what kind of people use these kind of concepts. To put it simply: indoctrinated ones

 

[fart town usa]

That isn't what he is saying, though. In my comment I called out he is using opaque academic language in a way I agree is problematic. When he says "whiteness" he means "the concept of whiteness as an exclusionary category to enshrine privilege for one group" not as an actual race of people.

People who don't spend all day talking about critical race theory are not going to understand you if you talk this way and it definitely speaks to what a bubble he lives in. All of that is fair.

But it doesn't mean he thinks white people are bad. The whole talk is literally about praising Mel Brooks for doing a good job of writing a black character. It's impossible to construe this in context as saying white people are bad or shouldn't write about race, he literally uses Mel Brooks as his reference point for good throughout the entire talk.

 

[Boss Mog]

Sure, it's easy to make fun of these degenerates, but the thing is, they're actually somewhat succeeding. You guys think the industry can afford a bunch of 400M flops like Concord? Cause I don't.

 

[JohnnyPhats]

The takeaway is anything straight and white is ghastly and it’s hateful to EVER have it in gaming. I loathe liberals. Especially those where their sexuality is the most front and center foremost thing about them. I don’t care what you do with your pee pee.

 

[Nickolaidas]

I'll never understand why the academic left would rather die defending these terms than to shift their rhetoric.

Because their intention is to shame you and guilt you into compliance, not to become your equals.

They don't want equality, they want a power exchange.

 

[DeepEnigma]

The terminology chosen by these "academics" is inherently flawed because it takes a dynamic that's represented globally where ever there is a mixing of races and cultures but it frames in from a very narrow and specific American perspective. To absolutely anyone not educated in that very specific framing of the terminology, the words carry the implication of attacking a particular race, and the implication is so obvious that I really doubt it was just an unfortunate accident.

I've said this before so I'll just quote myself which captures the gist.

"The people who adopted the widespread usage of "white privilege" could have avoided so much controversy and the racially charged implications that the term conveys by instead using the term "majority privilege" since it covers 95% of the meaning.
But I know being strictly academic and diplomatic wasn't a high priority because the same people also coined "whiteness" and they practically defined it so that any and all societal ineptitudes that negatively affect minorities fall under its umbrella. The terminology was deliberately chosen by racists to demonize a specific race".

It's cultural Marxism bred in these institutions (ironic word) preying on that of immutable characteristic tribalism all humans possess.

 

[Madflavor]

I can't wait for this fucking company to burn to the ground. It's coming, it's just a matter of time.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Sure, it's easy to make fun of these degenerates, but the thing is, they're actually somewhat succeeding. You guys think the industry can afford a bunch of 400M flops like Concord? Cause I don't.

I think the pendulum will swing back hard when these corporations in all tenants of society have to go into desperation mode. Hopefully they wise up to the great cultural economic bankruptcy plan.

 

[LordBlodgett]

Since this is apparently going to be a permanent thing going forward, I’d like to provide some advice: Try and get a grasp of your community, specifically the bad actors who are either…

A) Throwing the word woke or other buzzwords at anything they don’t like and thus causing mass confusion
B) Trying to find reasons to kill a game’s sales that have nothing to with either 3 letter acronym
C) Grifting by using the negativity caused by things like this to try and kill random games’ sales that they don’t like.

You guys have to set some actual parameters for things because everything right now is very messy and some of it comes across almost witch hunt-esque. The ones who are posting actual evidence (instead of theories) have the right idea.

Lastly, if you guys really want the more casual gaming audience to understand your plight, you need to be more organized and your members need to be more rational and less edgy/jaded.

And for crying out loud, stop doubling down on older media. This culture war stuff is newer, so the minute someone else brings up something from the 90s or early 2000s that you would deem as ‘woke’ today, just concede the point to them and find another, reasonable way to explain your position. The minute you lie and say ‘Well no I didn’t like the movie Alien it’s a bad movie’ or something just as ridiculous you’re going to receive an instant side eye/eyebrow raise.

The more the waters are muddied by any of the above, the worse your movement becomes, you will go nowhere, and the more you repeat the same mistakes of the side that you hate, just in a different-but-same way.

 

[Puscifer]

I don't think I've ever seen a movie where racism is used in such a casual and funny way that you can't help but laugh, no matter what your skin color.

"Hey where they White Women at"

Lives rent free in my head

 

[DeepEnigma]

Since this is apparently going to be a permanent thing going forward, I’d like to provide some advice: Try and get a grasp of your community, specifically the bad actors who are either…

This should have happened a long time ago instead of letting it get so out of hand and lead to all of this pushback, and trying to police said pushback instead,

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Since this is apparently going to be a permanent thing going forward, I’d like to provide some advice: Try and get a grasp of your community, specifically the bad actors who are either…

A) Throwing the word woke or other buzzwords at anything they don’t like and thus causing mass confusion
B) Trying to find reasons to kill a game’s sales that have nothing to with either 3 letter acronym
C) Grifting by using the negativity caused by things like this to try and kill random games’ sales that they don’t like.

You guys have to set some actual parameters for things because everything right now is very messy and some of it comes across almost witch hunt-esque. The ones who are posting actual evidence (instead of theories) have the right idea.

Lastly, if you guys really want the more casual gaming audience to understand your plight, you need to be more organized and your members need to be more rational and less edgy/jaded.

And for crying out loud, stop doubling down on older media. This culture war stuff is newer, so the minute someone else brings up something from the 90s or early 2000s that you would deem as ‘woke’ today, just concede the point to them and find another, reasonable way to explain your position. The minute you lie and say ‘Well no I didn’t like the movie Alien it’s a bad movie’ or something just as ridiculous you’re going to receive an instant side eye/eyebrow raise.

The more the waters are muddied by any of the above, the worse your movement becomes, you will go nowhere, and the more you repeat the same mistakes of the side that you hate, just in a different-but-same way.

Your problem is thinking that the mass market consumer's common sense is a "movement" that needs fostering.

It doesn't.

People like the ones you were responding to, need only continue these conversations. That's it. Just highlight the lunacy of these ideologue activists intent on ruining our hobby and the mainstream gamer will vote with their wallet.

We don't need to give a fuck about the more extreme elements of the anti-woke right. We, i.e. the mainstream majority gamer, neither engage with those elements as we do the extreme elements on the left.

We're just here to play games and have fun, and when we see something shit, we'll call it out, laugh and mock it, and then vote with our wallets so that shit like that doesn't get a chance at a sequel.

We're not activists and we don't need to be. Activists are people who try to influence (or in the case of these ideologue culture warriors, gaslight the majority) the majority by highlighting an issue the activists care about. We ARE the majority and we refuse to be gaslit.

 

[Moriarty1889]

You're joking, right?

Exactly. They are terrified of being called homophobic, transphobic, white supremacist racists. All that rolled into one for those lunatics to cry and shriek against anyone who tries to question or expose them.

 

[Nickolaidas]

I think the pendulum will swing back hard when these corporations in all tenants of society have to go into desperation mode. Hopefully they wise up to the great cultural economic bankruptcy plan.

I just hope it won't swing all the other way. I don't want to have ANOTHER wave of puritan/Christian/right wing censorship and read articles like 'Goku is an allegory for the antiChrist' or have Eve censored even MORE because conservative media would deem it 'vulgar' and 'offensive'.

Let's go back to 2000. Pop culture was at its peak back then.

In fact, FUCK censorship, period. No artist should have their work altered, no matter where the criticism is coming from.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Because their intention is to shame you and guilt you into compliance, not to become your equals.

Regardless of intention, it's not a very effective approach. That's my point here.

I think fundamentally these are people who are tucked so securely into their own bubble that they have just lost the ability to code switch.

And like, the ostensible purpose of this talk is outreach, right? Like if you're trying to help people do better, you need to talk to the people who might not be used to thinking about these things. Otherwise who are you talking to?

 

[Atrus]

Advocating for inclusivity or diversity I can understand, but as is often the case, there is a political militarism if not extremism in the ideas.

Instead of offering insight to an artist, they want to direct that artist, and the artist themselves contort their works to suit others instead of best representing themselves or their ideas.

This is how we get people who think Stellar Blade or Black Myth are “problematic”.

It’s a back and forth pendulum of trash begetting trash as the same mentality is consolidated on the other end, distracting from the underlying work.

Ghosts of Yotei is one recent example where a game noted for its characterizations is suddenly written off simply because the protagonist is a woman the second go around.

We just need great games featuring the best out creative artists can give, not political messages inorganically bootstrapped into gaming.

 

[SF Kosmo]

And then I wonder how any suit can choose such retards to get involved with their multimillion game. Their output speaks for itself and first debacles are already happening.

To be honest, man, most of the games they have worked with are enormously successful. Suicide Squad was a flop but they barely did anything on that game.

You want a good example of a game that needed a consultancy and flopped because they did it themselves? Fucking Dustborn, man. A bunch of white dudes from Finland trying to write about race from an American perspective and absolutely gagging on the assignment.

Then you have Alan Wake II, another game made by white dudes in Finland about a black American character, where they brought on SBI for support. Which of those games did a better job? Which one got GOTY level reviews and which one had a player base in the single digits after a week?

SBI doesn't tell companies what games to make, they're a support studio. What they do is help these companies realize their intended goals.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Advocating for inclusivity or diversity I can understand, but as is often the case, there is a political militarism if not extremism in the ideas.

Instead of offering insight to an artist, they want to direct that artist, and the artist themselves contort their works to suit others instead of best representing themselves or their ideas.

This is how we get people who think Stellar Blade or Black Myth are “problematic”.

It’s a back and forth pendulum of trash begetting trash as the same mentality is consolidated on the other end, distracting from the underlying work.

Ghosts of Yotei is one recent example where a game noted for its characterizations is suddenly written off simply because the protagonist is a woman the second go around.

We just need great games featuring the best out creative artists can give, not political messages inorganically bootstrapped into gaming.

 

[Det]

It's cultural Marxism bred in these institutions (ironic word) preying on that of immutable characteristic tribalism all humans possess.

Cultural Bolshevism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nazi claims about attacks on conceptions of family, identity, music, art and intellectual life were generally referred to as Cultural Bolshevism, the Bolsheviks being the Marxist revolutionary movement in Russia
"Cultural Marxism" is a contemporary variant of the term which is used to refer to the far-right antisemitic Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory.[5] This variant of the term was used by far-right terrorist Anders Breivik in the introductory chapter of his manifesto.

 

[VictorVectors]

THEY SO MAD THO

 

[DeepEnigma]

Cultural Bolshevism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nazi claims about attacks on conceptions of family, identity, music, art and intellectual life were generally referred to as Cultural Bolshevism, the Bolsheviks being the Marxist revolutionary movement in Russia

Here's the kicker. They're both sides of the same authoritarian coin.

 

[Astral Dog]

they don't want to be normalized among masculine men and feminine women, and just try to make fun products for everyone, instead they want everybody else to look,think and talk like them(or else treat to burn the industry)

i find that approach kinda boring and narcissistic guess time will tell us if this 'Sweet Baby inc.' rises or falls

 

[HJuggernaut]

and they succeeded, western games are now dead.

 

[Randall365]

Give someone enough rope…

It’s happened with Star Wars a few times. Last Jedi was shite, but it sold tons of tickets - it is only after people have digested it that Solo bombs.

Those of us who paid big money for Outlaws for that shitty narrative are going to think twice about Shadows… and I suspect Spiderman 3’s sales would be affected.

SBI are on the way out now.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

I just hope it won't swing all the other way. I don't want to have ANOTHER wave of puritan/Christian/right wing censorship and read articles like 'Goku is an allegory for the antiChrist' or have Eve censored even MORE because conservative media would deem it 'vulgar' and 'offensive'.

Don't be absurd.

 

[Esppiral]

I still don't understand what baby Inc is, a developer?

 

[InterMusketeer]

I still don't understand what baby Inc is, a developer?

They're a consultancy bureau. Developers and publishers can hire them for assistance with diversity, inclusion and all he other ideological buzzwords.

 

[stn]

To be honest, man, most of the games they have worked with are enormously successful. Suicide Squad was a flop but they barely did anything on that game.

You want a good example of a game that needed a consultancy and flopped because they did it themselves? Fucking Dustborn, man. A bunch of white dudes from Finland trying to write about race from an American perspective and absolutely gagging on the assignment.

Then you have Alan Wake II, another game made by white dudes in Finland about a black American character, where they brought on SBI for support. Which of those games did a better job? Which one got GOTY level reviews and which one had a player base in the single digits after a week?

SBI doesn't tell companies what games to make, they're a support studio. What they do is help these companies realize their intended goals.

In terms of games they assisted on that were successful, I recall GoW: Ragnarok, and Spider-Man 2. That said, those are very established titles. In terms of titles that struggled, Dustborn, Flintlock, and Kenzau (is that what it's called?) all flopped really hard. Regarding Allan Wake 2, I was reading that the game has barely broke even, so I don't think it was a commercial success either.

I'm only referring to the commercial output of the above games, not the critical output. I heard Flintlock is solid, and Alan Wake 2 is very good, while Dustborn is apparently total shit.

 

[semiconscious]

THEY SO MAD THO

imagine the 6 year old staging an elaborate scene in the aisle of a supermarket because they want a box of cookies, but imagine that 6 year old having an elaborate vocabulary, & a deep-seated conviction that getting these cookies will not only please himself but also serve a higher purpose, & you have your average wokester. they simply aren't serious people. like most 6 year olds, they're fantasists...

 

[polybius80]

How did you all become obsessed with this stuff?

I started after they became obsessed in destroying the things I like and dictate how thing are to be made from now on for everybody, they always had the right to buy and produce whatever they like, but instead want to reduce the right of others to buy and produce what they like

 

[Tams]

To be fair lately some of you have been just as bad as them with all this stupid back & forth . How did you all become obsessed with this stuff?

Most of us were just humming along with life happily, playing games that made us feel good, and then, WHAM! They started trying to shove this woke shite down our throats in the games we liked and loved.

And yet you dare to ask why we discuss this? Sorry, are we not supposed to? According to who? You?

 

[Kamina]

Starve them of money by voting with your wallets.

 

[SF Kosmo]

In terms of games they assisted on that were successful, I recall GoW: Ragnarok, and Spider-Man 2. That said, those are very established titles. In terms of titles that struggled, Dustborn, Flintlock, and Kenzau (is that what it's called?) all flopped really hard.

I don't think they had anything to do with Dustborn. If anything that seems like a game that probably could have benefitted from having some outside help. (If I'm wrong about that, that's a big strike though).

Regarding Allan Wake 2, I was reading that the game has barely broke even, so I don't think it was a commercial success either.

I'm only referring to the commercial output of the above games, not the critical output. I heard Flintlock is solid, and Alan Wake 2 is very good, while Dustborn is apparently total shit.

Yeah Alan Wake 2 wasn't a big commerical hit, it broke even, but reasonable men can probably agree it's a W on their scorecard.

 

[Bombolone]

Sucker Punch




Sony (2024): “So there’s this initiative called DEI…”

Sucker Punch is an O.G. They got this. Just gotta let them do their thing.

 

[stn]

I don't think they had anything to do with Dustborn. If anything that seems like a game that probably could have benefitted from having some outside help. (If I'm wrong about that, that's a big strike though).

Actually, you're right. I'm double-checking now and it does not look like SBI was involved in Dustborn.

As a general post, I'm all for consulting companies that help other companies be more sensitive to certain live issues. Consulting in general exists in all types of industries. That said, there's just too much drama surrounding the core SBI people for my liking. I've seen screenshots of them harassing people, doxxing people, making threats, blocking all discussion (even respectful discussion), and stuff like that. There was even that one guy talking shit about Akira Toriyama (DBZ creator) after he passed away.

It just doesn't give me confidence that they truly care about the issues they claim when they expose themselves as assholes.

 

[6502]

Say what you like about SBI, but I have never saved so much money....

 

[SF Kosmo]

Actually, you're right. I'm double-checking now and it does not look like SBI was involved in Dustborn.

And I think there's a lesson there, like SBI doesn't exist in a vacuum. Dustborn is a Finnish developer (headed by Ragnar Fucking Tornquist who has more than enough credibility as a writer) inexplicably deciding to write a game about American minority characters dealing with American racial politics, and falling flat on their faces.

No one made them do that. They're a private company. But if they're going to attempt that kind of story, then bringing in a consultancy is probably better than trying to go at it theirselves.

The biggest thing that I think people get wrong here is this idea that companies are somehow being pushed around by this tiny support studio. I have seen all kinds of crazy narratives about how companies are being bullied or threatened by SBI or that they have to in order to get their ESG scores up, and all of that is 100% BS.

These companies WANT to make diverse or "woke" games and they hire SBI because their values and goals align. The giant company with all the money is always going to be the one calling the shots, not the tiny consultancy/support studio. It's crazy to think of that power dynamic any other way.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I didn’t say anything about calming down or stopping, I’m giving legitimate advice. Take it or leave it but you’re going to have to eventually deal with the problems I’ve mentioned, in the future.

I don’t need to subvert or deceive. I had an epiphany months ago. If you guys win, I win. If you guys lose, I win. I might as well give some helpful advice to move things forward so that you can at least try to win better.

People are voting with their wallets, and it seems to be working so far.

 

[March Climber]

Again, we're not a movement. We're not a hivemind.

You say this, but you're also posting like you're Legion from Mass Effect:

We are the majority.

We don't need focus.

They won't win. We already have.

We are the majority.

Regardless, I'll say to you what I've already said to DeepEnigma about this:

People are voting with their wallets, and it seems to be working so far.

I hope you continue to be right and this wasn't just a fortunate streak of events

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

And this is why the movement will remain messy and unfocused. One of the tells will be the day when SBI is either ostracized or simply collapses. If that day ever comes, keep a close eye on what people do next and see if some of the bad actors take things too far.

Again, we're not a movement. We are the majority. We don't need focus. We're not a hivemind.

I mean legitimate in terms of people taking you more seriously.

The only people not taking us seriously are the very wokesters who we don't give a fuck about to begin with. They won't win. We already have.

There is still a large majority that don’t because of the multiple factors I’ve listed above.

This is fiction.

We are the majority. The abject failure of Concord and the increasing number of failed woke media products demonstrates this aptly.

From the LoTR Amazon series, to Star Wars: The Acolyte, to SS: Kill the Justice League, to Concord... the list of woke propaganda utterly shipwrecking in the most catastrophic and hilariously stupendous fashion shows that we ARE the mass market who votes with our wallet to say no to woke BS.

Don’t let a stars-aligning moment like Concord blind you to this.

If you think Concord was a grand coincidence and not a clear message that the mass market now knows the smell of woke BS from a mile away and categorically rejects it, then I'm a Nigerian prince who wants to give you my fortune; you need only send me your bank details and savings account balance.

 

[kyussman]

I mean,any devs giving these fucking loons work deserve to go under.

 

[El Muerto]

Maybe they should go back to making bbq sauce.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

To be fair lately some of you have been just as bad as them with all this stupid back & forth . How did you all become obsessed with this stuff?

^^ found the REEEE members!!

 

[onQ123]

^^ found the REEEE members!!

Stuff like this is exactly why I didn't go to that site when everyone else did

 

[Icymanipulator]

Their obsession with what other people enjoy is creepy as fuck