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[n0b]

Attack medic ftw. Except when the team is actually good enough for me to bother healing them.

Medic is actually a really difficult class to master though, you need to be able to keep yourself alive without being able to attack, you need to build uber fast, and you have to be able to juggle players well to keep as much of your team alive as you can.

Saying medic is only holding down the heal button is like saying engineer is only putting a sentry somewhere and hitting it, heavy is only holding down fire, demo is just putting stickies on points, spy is just disguising and running behind enemies, sniper is just staying in one place and shooting, and any other class is just running at the enemy and shooting them. Sure, thats part of the class, but its not enough to be really good at it.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"So my one friend annoyed you by saying cock gobbler once in the game chat? I can't say I really understand that, but everyone has different feelings and sensitivity levels."


Uh, it was a lot more than once. The constant justification "We didn't say he was gay! Just that he likes to eat cocks" or some such blah blah it went on for awhile and it was dumb. Your defense is cute, though. There's something to be said for loyalty.

 

[The Storyteller]

But the fact that the syringes drop to the ground after traveling a certain distance completely gimps the gun. It's such a fickle fucking gun when compared to any other gun in the game.

Yeah that disadvatnge you describe is my favourite thing about the gun, it becomes an advatage if you know how to use it. Try pointing the syringe gun upwards.

Why are there rarely ever enough medics on a team? -- no one wants to play them because you're stuck running around and healing the entire game.

And I -and many others- find that fun. Shockingly. TF2 is the first onlne "FPS" that I've played for more than 2 hours without falling half asleep. So it comes as no surprise to me, that my most played class is the most non FPS class of the lot.

 

[vultureparade]

Saying medic is only holding down the heal button is like saying engineer is only putting a sentry somewhere and hitting it, heavy is only holding down fire, demo is just putting stickies on points, spy is just disguising and running behind enemies, sniper is just staying in one place and shooting, and any other class is just running at the enemy and shooting them. Sure, thats part of the class, but its not enough to be really good at it.

Haha, true, true, "only holding down the heal button" was a bit of an exaggeration. I think the main problem with medic, and why there are never enough people playing medics, is how much emphasis is put on healing. I'd just like to see a much more rounded healing support class, and I think that would make the medic a lot more fun to play.

Uh, it was a lot more than once. The constant justification "We didn't say he was gay! Just that he likes to eat cocks" or some such blah blah it went on for awhile and it was dumb. Your defense is cute, though. There's something to be said for loyalty.

Haha, play Brain Age more!

I did try to figure out why my friend was banned, without a warning, without anything, for saying "cock gobbler", so you've got me there. That might have annoyed you. But I really was, and still am, baffled by the whole situation.

And I'm not sure why you find me trying to figure out why my friend was banned "dumb". I hope you would have done the same if in my situation.

 

[vultureparade]

Yeah that disadvatnge you describe is my favourite thing about the gun, it becomes an advatage if you know how to use it. Try pointing the syringe gun upwards.

I play demo a lot and that's one of the most fun things about the grenades. But with medic I find that there's not much pay off if you manage to hit someone.

And I -and many others- find that fun. Shockingly. TF2 is the first onlne "FPS" that I've played for more than 2 hours without falling half asleep. So it comes as no surprise to me, that my most played class is the most non FPS class of the lot.

I think that explains my position even better. It's awesome that some people can find the medic class fun as it is a different type of FPS class to play. I just wish more people could find it fun as the medic is a crucial part of winning in any match. I think giving the medic some more abilities that appealed to the traditional FPS player would make the class more fun for everyone while still retaining the qualities that make it fun for players like you.

 

[Capndrake]

Will crits still work in Humiliation or not? Otherwise Spy and Medic can't get a couple of easy kills.

 

[vultureparade]

Will crits still work in Humiliation or not? Otherwise Spy and Medic can't get a couple of easy kills.

Is this at the end of a round when the losing team is forced to stand there and they are blown to bits by critical shots from the winning team?

If so, I was wondering this too. It's the only place in the game where I like critical shots.

 

[Borys]

This is what I get when I pop in the discs.

Shouldn't it auto install instead of downloading the files off steam?

So anybody figured this out? I'm also interested in what are those files. You sure you didn't bout the MAC version (if such version even exists :lol)?

 

[PillowKnight]

"So my one friend annoyed you by saying cock gobbler once in the game chat? I can't say I really understand that, but everyone has different feelings and sensitivity levels."


Uh, it was a lot more than once. The constant justification "We didn't say he was gay! Just that he likes to eat cocks" or some such blah blah it went on for awhile and it was dumb. Your defense is cute, though. There's something to be said for loyalty.

Actually just to agree with you and his ban. This guy is constantly being an asshole on the server, so that is probably the reason for his ban.

 

[1-D_FTW]

Crits are hardly exclusive to soldiers, but hey, at least you people can stop whining about that and now whine how rockets do the same damage regardless of range.

It's gonna be hilarious. Cause as the Steam stats showed, the crits were all similar. Sure the Demoman led slightly in percentage, but the bitching was caused because rockets were always visible. Sometimes you saw grenades before you died, a lot of times you just splattered.

But all the other classes that have the same percentage of crits as rockets are also gonna lose them. That means no more weak ass defensive characters taking down a full health offense class with one shot. You never saw it like a slow moving, glowing rocket, but you definitely new it was a crit when one weak suace shot killed you. Invisible crits >>>>>>>>> visible crits. I guess we'll see. The only real advantage I see is the heavy is gonna be buffed a little since a soldier has no real incentive to even try a frontal assault on him. It's just gonna be, run soldier. Run.

Never understood why people complained about that; are rockets...supposed to morph or something as it flies along?

Anyways, looking forward to playing without crit. Sure the occasional sweet shot that turned kill because of a crit will be missed but hey, balance ain't a bad thing.

Also, wouldn't this be a slight boon to Pyros? No more single-shot kill rockets/minigun spray can't be a bad thing for them.

I can't rememeber the last time I got a crit against a pyro. Despite what Valve claims, I'm convinced crits mostly occured when one team needed a momentum change (getting whipped) or when a team was either outnumbered on CP capture/defenses.

Pyros need two rocket hits to die. And they all play so stupidly with their frontal assaults that it's gonna have zero effect on their effectiveness. It's very easy to get two rocket hits on these guys even if you stand still and don't retreat while firing.

 

[PillowKnight]

It's gonna be hilarious. Cause as the Steam stats showed, the crits were all similar. Sure the Demoman led slightly in percentage, but the bitching was caused because rockets were always visible. Sometimes you saw grenades before you died, a lot of times you just splattered.

But all the other classes that have the same percentage of crits as rockets are also gonna lose them. That means no more weak ass defensive characters taking down a full health offense class with one shot. You never saw it like a slow moving, glowing rocket, but you definitely new it was a crit when one weak suace shot killed you. Invisible crits >>>>>>>>> visible crits. I guess we'll see. The only real advantage I see is the heavy is gonna be buffed a little since a soldier has no real incentive to even try a frontal assault on him. It's just gonna be, run soldier. Run.

Yup, this is really gonna fuck engineers and medics, can't count all those times they've one shotted me with a melee crit. I usually get annoyed by other classes' crits more, because there is no dodging non soldier/demo crits.

I'd say taking out crits will ruin the game, doubt Valve would be so adamant to keep them in otherwise.

In my experience crits are linked to the number of deaths. Usually when im on a team with members that are always dying, the opposition seems to have an incredibly high % crit rate. There's actually been a few times when I tell my team members to "Stop rushing in" and the occurrence of crits decreased significantly.

 

[1-D_FTW]

Yeah. When you're on a roll, it occurs. But I firmly believe it's momentum both ways. There's been times when we're crushing teams and every time I turn a corner, I'm killed like 5 times in a row by crit rocket. And you look at their scoreboard and pathetic scores, and you think this is Valve's way of trying to swing momentum for a team that's pretty crappy.

I think it's a lot more calculated than people think it is and I agree people are not gonna like the end results.

 

[Jacobi]

Well, medic is just a class that has someone has to choose, because it's so important to the team and yes, the syringe gun is really pathetic. Yesterday I tried to shoot a teleporter exit with it. It really didn't work, I kept shooting it for like one minute. WTF. It also pisses me off how pathetic the engies weapons are... But at least I'm not gonna be killed in one-shots anymore

 

[omgimaninja]

I still think the syringe gun shoots off target. No matter how you aim it always goes to the right

 

[Won]

"The better you doing, the more likely you continue to do well" That's what they say in the Developer Commentary regarding crits.
So yeah removing crits = punishing good players.
Medics rely too much on crits for selfdefense. Same goes for Engineers. But I think the most affected class is the scout. You have to know the maps and need the movement/aiming skills to kill and survive long and get your crits.
Combine all that and it sounds like a huge buff for my spy. And I don't like that.
But it's worth a try.

 

[Confidence Man]

"The better you doing, the more likely you continue to do well" That's what they say in the Developer Commentary regarding crits.
So yeah removing crits = punishing good players.

I see it more as crits = punishing unfortunate players. All they do is make it easier for a dominating player/team to continue to dominate, making it harder for people on the receiving end to get out of the hole of ownage they may find themselves in.

 

[Rlan]

So anybody figured this out? I'm also interested in what are those files. You sure you didn't bout the MAC version (if such version even exists :lol)?

This happens when I backup discs as well - the EXE isn't chucked on there. It's weird.

You'll have to copy the files to your HDD into a folder, then add this file:

http://support.steampowered.com/downloads/faq/275/steambackup.exe

 

[Cheeto]

I still think the syringe gun shoots off target. No matter how you aim it always goes to the right

It's down right impossible to use that weapon on moving targets. So I just spray them randomly and get whatever hits I can while I jump in with the bonesaw to finish them off.



I'm with 1D_FTW and Pillowknight about the crits. Sure they are annoying sometimes when you get killed by a stray one, but I think they are there for a reason.

 

[Icy]

It's down right impossible to use that weapon on moving targets. So I just spray them randomly and get whatever hits I can while I jump in with the bonesaw to finish them off.



I'm with 1D_FTW and Pillowknight about the crits. Sure they are annoying sometimes when you get killed by a stray one, but I think they are there for a reason.

well that reason is gone now.

 

[1-D_FTW]

"The better you doing, the more likely you continue to do well" That's what they say in the Developer Commentary regarding crits.
So yeah removing crits = punishing good players.
Medics rely too much on crits for selfdefense. Same goes for Engineers. But I think the most affected class is the scout. You have to know the maps and need the movement/aiming skills to kill and survive long and get your crits.
Combine all that and it sounds like a huge buff for my spy. And I don't like that.
But it's worth a try.

And I think that's where a lot of the hate comes from (aside from being able to see rocket crits.) If they would just be honest about it and say that it's an integral part of the rock/paper/scissor balance, I think some people would be more accepting. Nothing I've seen will ever convince me it's not.

The other thing is some people just suck. And it's a convenient excuse to blame the crits. I know there was a brief period where the crits were turned off before. My k/d ratio wasn't altered. There's good with the bad. It just changes the game balance in ways Valve didn't design for.

Personally, I think a lot more skill is involved in flanking around a heavy and hitting him with a lucky rocket crit and a second rocket before he turns around vs. outflanking him and having to fire 5 rockets to get a death before he has enough of a clue to turn around and kill you. That's one of the reasons I like crits. There's nothing that turns me off more about an online shooter than having everything nerfed where flanking is useless and the cleanup guys get all the kills. Ideally, they'd find a way for perfect balance without crits and double all damage when you shoot somebody in the back. You let somebody get behind you, it shouldn't be a long drawn shootout. Strategy should be rewarded.

 

[Won]

I see it more as crits = punishing unfortunate players. All they do is make it easier for a dominating player/team to continue to dominate, making it harder for people on the receiving end to get out of the hole of ownage they may find themselves in.

Valve desgined TF2 around that "momentum" idea and I think crits flow pretty good with it. You need some kind of momentum on Dustbowl for the second point on each part for example. Crits support that but crits alone won't capture you anything.
The big problem with removing crits is balance. A tier 3 sentry is a dangerous thing but it doesn't crit. A spy still can one-hit everything, but it will be way harder to counter him. A heavy-medic combo can easily run on a point and 3 soldiers can't do anything about it without a lucky crit.
Removing crits without changing the rest of the game is not a good idea.

Also what 1-D said.

But we can try it.

 

[fallengorn]

I'm with 1D_FTW and Pillowknight about the crits. Sure they are annoying sometimes when you get killed by a stray one, but I think they are there for a reason.

I'm with them. Aside from affirming player skill, I think it's another layer they put into to stave off stalemates.

Sure it can get frustrating, but you just grit your teeth and deal. I've probably been hit with just as many random crits as I've given out.

 

[Confidence Man]

I don't think crits are integral to the balance of the game at all. While there is some rule governing their frequency, they're ultimately just valve's way of throwing a random factor into the mix.

There's an interview in a recent GFW that talks more about it, I'll try and dig it up.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Sadly this doesn't even affect me since I think I got 1 crit in the past month. :lol

 

[Confidence Man]

Here are a few quotes about crits:

We created TF2's critical-hit system so that critical-hit chances increase over time based on performance. ... If you're a good player, you'll always have a higher chance of hitting criticals than novices.

Adding randomness increases the range of possible tactical skill options. Sometimes, the crazy thing works. If a game is 100 percent determinstic, then only one tactic works. The more randomness you add, the wider the range of options becomes.

One way hardcore players salvage their egos is by saying other guys got lucky. Their egos are very much tied into how much fun they're having, and so the system explicitly lets them feel like they weren't beaten fairly. And the reality is, if not crits, they'd find other reasons, right?

It really has nothing to do with balance or momentum.

 

[Icy]

Here are a few quotes about crits:







It really has nothing to do with balance or momentum.

exactly. I am not removing the no crit mod. So its a moot discussion.

 

[Won]

But the first quote is basically about momentum.

Developer Commentary -> Gravel Pit -> Node 14
I'm not writing it down, but they talk about pacing, highs and lows and kills in rapid succesion. Sounds like momentum to me.
Your other quotes just state that there a lot of other game design reasons for crits and removing them would make a big difference.

The thing with balance is: Spy is my most played class on the neogaf server. I often pick fights with scouts and the winner is most of the time decided if the scout crits or not. With medic-heavy teams I often backstab the heavy first and attack the medic with the revolver while keeping distance to the critting bonesaw of doom. Removing crits turns a medic into a non-issue.
Sorry but I don't see it affecting me in the same way as a soldier.

We will see how good or bad it works out soon enough.

 

[Confidence Man]

But the first quote is basically about momentum.

Well in that quote they were talking about how the luck of the draw isn't determined entirely by luck, but by skill. I haven't listened to the dev commentary, so maybe there's something in there, but if balance was the real goal then the team/players who're getting their asses kicked should be getting the crits, not the other way around.

They basically admit players might be killed unfairly, but hey, we might as well give the hardcore something to whine about because they'd be whining anyway.

I guess one person's "increased range of possible tactical skill options" is another's "cheap ass kills". I'm glad Icy's is the latter.

 

[1-D_FTW]

Here are a few quotes about crits:







It really has nothing to do with balance or momentum.

I'm just saying I don't believe it. The rate of crits when there's been a long stalemate or when inbalanced CP defend/attacks are happening rises significantly. I'll never be convinced there aren't hidden algorithms at work. I know there are definitely situations where I'm expecting a crit to fire based on the situation. I'd say only about 10 percent of my crit rockets surprise me.

And I'll discuss it because this is GAF's official TF2 thread and it's an interesting discussion (since there's lots of whining by people on the bottom of the scoreboards in every match). I'm not even sure I'm gonna get back to TF2 when I start playing again next week. Ideally I'll just move on to Trackmania United, but the pull of TF2 might be able to pull me back in. But I definitely find this an interesting discussion.

I just think it's funny people are accustomed to games letting them win in single player games so easily (either through med packs every ten feet or, *sigh*, health that regenerates after 10 seconds, that they need excuses when they get creamed online . How often do you see average soldiers near the top of the scoreboard? Almost never. It's always the really good soldiers. The rest are either playing other classes or sucking it up at the bottom. Players make the score, not the class (when properly balanced.) I was routinely being an MVP back in my pre-buff pyro days. The only reason I changed was because I was sick of 3 melee weapons and nothing for mid-long range combat (other than hiding.)

The 6v6 tournament is gonna be owned by medic-heavy combos, though. A Puyo-Richard combination is gonna own. A skilled Pyro could flank behind and kill the medic and trade his life for the heavy. But there's not very many skilled pyros on the gaf servers.

 

[Icy]

Well in that quote they were talking about how the luck of the draw isn't determined entirely by luck, but by skill. I haven't listened to the dev commentary, so maybe there's something in there, but if balance was the real goal then the team/players who're getting their asses kicked should be getting the crits, not the other way around.

They basically admit players might be killed unfairly, but hey, we might as well give the hardcore something to whine about because they'd be whining anyway.

I guess one person's "increased range of possible tactical skill options" is another's "cheap ass kills". I'm glad Icy's is the latter.

Some people have stated medic is ruin. I say How so. Prove to me how no crits ruin a Medic. a Headshot from a sniper would generally kill someone even with a medic healing, on a heavy 2 shots. You're still going to have that. People are going to be put on Fire and there's going to be heavy fire fights. The Medic is fine. last time I looked, there wasn't a crit healing gun.

Spy and Sniper dmg is fine. Does everything like it should.

Yes the system does randomly give crits and also gives a higher crit % based on shots landed. Thus why you see the random stray crit and also successive crits from a HW.

Valve's system for momentum was designed so that the "winning" team continues on winning, make it tougher for the losers to win back. Thus increasing their skill from using base gameplay. A team stacked with high skill players is going to always win with this system. Short respawn times + higher crit rates. Drop out the crits and it makes things a bit even keel, especially on styacked teams.

I can make it so that the losing team gets a faster respawn and the winning time gets a standard respawn. I can set it so the respawn is the same regardless.

I can also remove the gradually shot dmg. ie Right now a rocket at point blank range does a ton more dmg than a rockt shot across the map. Same goes for a shotgun/pistol doing more dmg up close than far away. I can at my will make their shots the same dmg anywhere similar to the original. But I am not right now.

the removal of crits removes 70% of the randomness of dmg and kills in the game. The Stats page already reflects this.

 

[PillowKnight]

exactly. I am not removing the no crit mod. So its a moot discussion.

We're not necessarily talking about this so that you'll turn them back on. Overall, those of us who really hate it can just find another server to play on.

PS: Stalker, you're wrong about that, the tournament will be dominated by scouts.

 

[fallengorn]

PS: Stalker, you're wrong about that, the tournament will be dominated by scouts.

Truth, unless a limit's put in place.

 

[Icy]

Truth, unless a limit's put in place.

yep. 1 scout thats for sure.

 

[PillowKnight]

yep. 1 scout thats for sure.

I disagree, we should have a vote on this.

 

[Icy]

I disagree, we should have a vote on this.

.......

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*

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Icy shall consider your proposal before I cut off your head.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

".......

+

*

=

Icy shall consider your proposal before I cut off your head. "


Nice to know our opinions matter :lol

 

[fallout]

Saying medic is only holding down the heal button is like saying engineer is only putting a sentry somewhere and hitting it, heavy is only holding down fire, demo is just putting stickies on points, spy is just disguising and running behind enemies, sniper is just staying in one place and shooting, and any other class is just running at the enemy and shooting them.

I think you're onto something! TF2 IS FOR NOOBS!

 

[Cheeto]

yep. 1 scout thats for sure.

2....please?

All the different tournaments and ladders use the same class restrictions and they all are great. Why change?

 

[fallengorn]

2....please?

All the different tournaments and ladders use the same class restrictions and they all are great. Why change?

What are the standard class restrictions?

 

[Jacobi]

I'm cool with 1 scout limit

 

[fallout]

What are the standard class restrictions?

According to Teknopathetic:

The class restrictions most of the leagues use is 1 medic, 1 heavy, 1 engineer, 1 demo, 1 spy, 2 snipers, 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 2 pyros,

 

[n0b]

The only class I think I get a real benefit from crits in is demo, so I'm fine with that.

I'm assuming the point of a 1 scout limit is because we don't want to be just like the big tourneys. How about 1 for every class?

I think you're onto something! TF2 IS FOR NOOBS!

It's certainly full of them.

 

[Teknopathetic]

Heavies in 6v6 rarely show up. 2 (decent) scouts easily take out the medic before they can uber, leaving the heavy fairly vulnerable.

 

[1-D_FTW]

Heavies in 6v6 rarely show up. 2 (decent) scouts easily take out the medic before they can uber, leaving the heavy fairly vulnerable.

How much damage does his rifle shot do? I know a lot of the time I die from a scout it's from one shot... so it's obviously a crit shot (playing soldier.) That's why I thought a heavy would be completely invulnerable to him in 6v6.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"How much damage does his rifle shot do? I know a lot of the time I die from a scout it's from one shot... so it's obviously a crit shot (playing soldier.) That's why I thought a heavy would be completely invulnerable to him in 6v6."



I'm guessing somewhere around 65-80 close up. It won't be just the 2 scouts attacking the heavy, though.

 

[Icy]

After careful deliberation with the "Team", we are removing scouts entirely from the tournament. Thank You.

 

[Cheeto]

Uhh.......well this tournament is going to suck.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"After careful deliberation with the "Team", we are removing scouts entirely from the tournament. Thank You."


This is the wisest course of action, until valve fixes their broken classes.

 

[Firestorm]

The reason you don't see people be medic often is because it's boring to heal a team with no communication. I find it a lot of fun to play Medic, but only when I'm supporting people who know what's going on.

 

[Doytch]

After careful deliberation with the "Team", we are removing scouts entirely from the tournament. Thank You.

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