ZeroTheShadow
Member
Man these balance changes coming out next week. I wonder who's getting the nerf bat?
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Tekken |OT2| Pulse of the Regionally Discriminated Knuckleheads
- Thread starter AAK
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Via Purifico
Banned
Hmm betting on Gigas. Didn't Claudio get the nerf bat already?
More hopkick nerfing i bet
Previous nerfs didnt stop Claudio and Shaheen players to use it nonstop lolZeroTheShadow
Member
SquirrelSoup
Member
That's really strange. I've played a lot of TR and haven't had this disconnect issue at all that i can remember.
Tekken in the late 90's throughout the 00's had an audience that dwarfed Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter combined. It's very possible for Tekken to regain that audience if they reach deep and make a sequel to the best of their ability the same way NRS tried.
It really was something looking at Ed Boon beaming with smiles and pride at the end of Combo Breaker for making a game that garnered the main event for an FGC major that simultaneously put on quite the show. It'd be nice to have the same stage for Tekken just once.
Nothing changes for Namco if Harada leaves? Naaaaaaaaaah. I just listed out four major projects he's leading development on.
I remember when Shinji Mikami made the infamous statement that he'd cut off his own head if Resident Evil 4 ever went to a console other than Gamecube. Capcom didn't give a damn about their star employee's dignity and proceeded to port RE4 onto anything with a transistor inside. He had an identical position to Harada at Capcom where he was the executive producer of their most talented studio (at the time). I learned my lesson there, corporations are too strong
I'm pretty sure Namco wanted character DLC in TTT2 as well but guess why that didn't happen?
There's also a difference between Mikami and Harada. Mikami didn't want to port RE4 even though it's a very profitable opportunity area. He's less concerned with profits. Harada, is alternatively, all about profit. There are many examples from the past you can look at. He was responsible for bringing over Project X Zone to North America. He pretty much said Xenosaga trilogy HD remaster is possible if there's enough support but not doable in its current state because it's not a profitable venture. When he's making decisions on future properties from both the creative and business standpoints, then yes, I think he has great sway in the company and the situation isn't close to the same as it was with Mikami and RE4. Harada isn't just limited to Tekken anymore like he used to be. He's making decisions on multiple projects.
I think MikeBreezy's point was that without Kojima, Konami won't even make any console games. If Harada leaves, Namco is still going to make Tekken and the other projects for arcades and consoles. It's just going to be under a different leadership. Konami on the other hand is going to completely stop any Metal Gear game begin production on any console and is focusing only on Pachinko & Mobile games. That's the big difference between Kojima/Konami vs Harada/Namco relationships.
And on the second point if we're talking about profitable ventures, then there is a reason why Tecmo is in the healthiest position among all the 3D fighting games
DLC is probably the most cost effective way for companies to get rapid revenue... much to the expense of the consumer.
And on the second point if we're talking about profitable ventures, then there is a reason why Tecmo is in the healthiest position among all the 3D fighting games
DLC is probably the most cost effective way for companies to get rapid revenue... much to the expense of the consumer.
MikeBreezy92
Member
I think MikeBreezy's point was that without Kojima, Konami won't even make any console games. If Harada leaves, Namco is still going to make Tekken and the other projects for arcades and consoles. It's just going to be under a different leadership. Konami on the other hand is going to completely stop any Metal Gear game begin production on any console and is focusing only on Pachinko & Mobile games. That's the big difference between Kojima/Konami vs Harada/Namco relationships.
And on the second point if we're talking about profitable ventures, then there is a reason why Tecmo is in the healthiest position among all the 3D fighting games
DLC is probably the most cost effective way for companies to get rapid revenue... much to the expense of the consumer.
Well, that's the thing. Harada himself said the future of Tekken is uncertain and not guaranteed at this point. So with arcades becoming increasingly less relevant, you can't be sure that Namco will continue to make future Tekken titles.
And Tecmo DoA5 DLC is focused almost entirely on costumes and I wouldn't mind if Namco took the same approach. Costumes are non-essential items. Characters, alternatively, are very essential so I hold Harada to his word on that.
Edit: You are saying yourself that DoA is the 3D fighting game series with the healthiest future right now.
Unfortunately, the two fighters in the healthiest position right now are primarily being sold because of their appeal in either sexualizing their female characters or on gore/fatalities.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
Huh? I would say DOA5, Virtua Fighter 5 and even SC5 are much closer to Tekken than MKX. MKX is more comparable to something like Street Fighter, Guilty Gear or Killer Instinct with it's two dimensional playing field.
Yeah, expect a plethora of DLC in Tekken 7 unfortunately. It's inevitable now, especially considering the direction the industry is heading in. After seeing the Tekken Revolution price and tactics, look out people.
MikeBreezy92
Member
I played VF5 and SCV semi-competitively and competitively respectively, they are their own beasts. MK literally plays like a 2D Tekken most of the time. Even the oki system is like Tekken Pre-7.
DOA I'll give you that, fan service is the name of the game. MKX though I think you're selling it a bit short. The gore is a side aspect, they did so much more by redoing all the animations, redoing all the character designs, and implementing game changing mechanics involving the stamina effects. So many of those things contributed to MKX's blowup in popularity. MK was still exceptionally violent in the TTT1 -> T6 days but it was still a very shallow fanbase compared to now thanks to all the effort they put into the recent sequels.
Are you just ignoring my past posts? lol.
We are losing future console MGS titles and the Silent Hills game that could have been with Kojima leaving.
With Harada leaving, there are multiple more titles he's responsible for. Would there be a Project X Zone worldwide release? Would TTT2 have had free DLC? Would there even be a mention of Xenosaga HD collection? Would Pokken Tournament be happening right now? That title is literally the result of Pokemon Company reaching out to Harada. The title itself is a play on Tekken and Pokemon.
Read this article for greater insight on the role Harada plays at Namco. Don't undermine or downplay that role.
http://www.polygon.com/a/life-in-japan/Harada-Summer-Lesson
I'm talking specifically about MKX and MK9.
There are 100's of gore porn video games out there along with Mortal Kombat. There's no way MK9 and MKX got the success they had simply because of it. Along with all that Mortal Kombat does a fantastic job of building their characters and setting that plays a huge role in the enjoyment people get from the series. All of this got amplified with MK9 and MKX because of how much effort NRS put towards re-animating their character, fleshing out & refreshing their character designs, and getting solid writers to involve them competently in the narrative.
There are 100's of gore porn video games out there along with Mortal Kombat. There's no way MK9 and MKX got the success they had simply because of it. Along with all that Mortal Kombat does a fantastic job of building their characters and setting that plays a huge role in the enjoyment people get from the series. All of this got amplified with MK9 and MKX because of how much effort NRS put towards re-animating their character, fleshing out & refreshing their character designs, and getting solid writers to involve them competently in the narrative.
I can agree with that but you also can't deny that a large part of the series success has been based off the gore. I even have friends that simply bought the game because of the gore/fatalities and have no interest in actually learning the fighting mechanics. An anecdotal example of course but it can apply more broadly.
IMO that's kind of the equivalent to people saying they bought Tekken only to see the CGI endings of each character's arcade mode and not bother with learning the game at all. In the end they're still buying the game and voluntarily going through the core gameplay to reach the fatality/CGI ending. If that core gameplay didn't appeal in some way (casual or expert( they wouldn't even bother to reach the phase of the game to enjoy the gore/endings.
Playing through arcade mode to reach an ending is not the same as devoting time to actually learning the game properly. A lot of people button mash their way through everything.
If you take away the CG endings, Tekken, as a series, still maintained an upper hand in visuals and had an actually good gameplay system. If you similarly look at older Mortal Kombat games, what is left when you take away the gore and fatalities? Netherrealm only recently started taking the competitive scene seriously. I don't think it's hard to accept that the franchise for a long time survived on its gore aspect. It's not to deride the developers. I applaud them for the work they put into MKX and the steps they are taking to make the series more competitive with a greater focus on gameplay. But let's be real here.
If you take away the CG endings, Tekken, as a series, still maintained an upper hand in visuals and had an actually good gameplay system. If you similarly look at older Mortal Kombat games, what is left when you take away the gore and fatalities? Netherrealm only recently started taking the competitive scene seriously. I don't think it's hard to accept that the franchise for a long time survived on its gore aspect. It's not to deride the developers. I applaud them for the work they put into MKX and the steps they are taking to make the series more competitive with a greater focus on gameplay. But let's be real here.
I didn't mean to say MK was in any way had an upper hand to Tekken so I apologize if my posts came off that way. I'm just saying there is still some merit to Mortal Kombat's gameplay outside of the gore. UMK3 had legitimate mechanics for competitive players to take advantage of. Deadly Alliance had interesting stance changes involving weaponry. I skipped out on Deception and Armageddon but I guess like MK4 they were a bit of a mess.
But in the end, how each of us judge gameplay is subjective. What one person enjoys might not be the same for another. And just to add, Mortal Kombat 8 removed all the gore and only kept the blood to accommodate the inclusion of DC characters. So that does show there was something about the game people could latch on to outside the gore. Mortal Kombat games were equivalent to the Wrestilng Games I suppose. They weren't meant for the competitive gamer, but that doesn't mean I simply discard the gameplay as not being fun and declaring people's enjoyment of the series pre-MK9/MKX solely on the gore.
But in the end, how each of us judge gameplay is subjective. What one person enjoys might not be the same for another. And just to add, Mortal Kombat 8 removed all the gore and only kept the blood to accommodate the inclusion of DC characters. So that does show there was something about the game people could latch on to outside the gore. Mortal Kombat games were equivalent to the Wrestilng Games I suppose. They weren't meant for the competitive gamer, but that doesn't mean I simply discard the gameplay as not being fun and declaring people's enjoyment of the series pre-MK9/MKX solely on the gore.
GrayFoxPL told me you beat the shit out of everyone after I left. Playing one round better than the other. I don't say you should be too optimistic, just be a little more confident in your gameplay.
I don't have any issues with TR. Just a lot of people quitting the game since you don't get punished for it.
SquirrelSoup
Member
GrayFoxPL told me you beat the shit out of everyone after I left. Playing one round better than the other. I don't say you should be too optimistic, just be a little more confident in your gameplay.
Since i just went something like 20-2 against Doomshine (ggs!) i think i can at least safely say my consistency could use some work >.o
But i'll just keep at it. Do think i'm improving so that's a good feeling.
GGs.
You may lack some stuff like punishers and frame data, which is understandable, but you play smart and adapt. You're changing things up when it's not working and you're patient so you're well on your way to becoming really solid. Keep it up!
You may have noticed that I know absolutely nothing about Jun so I'm pretty much learning as I go as well
ZeroTheShadow
Member
Dude the only thing MK does better than Tekken is story mode. Mk doesn't even have halfway decent netcode or even color customization.
Don't get me wrong Tekken is my favorite fighting game franchise, but aesthetically, it looks pretty stagnant since 5. I would at least like the look of the game to evolve.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
Tekken is not evolving it's devolving. We're not talking about aesthetics here, I thought we were talking about the game itself and the content in it. Outside of story mode, Tekken has more features and better features than Mk.
My point has always been it's marketing which has hurt the Tekken brand, nothing gameplay wise. I'm a firm believer in that the average gamer doesn't give two shits about how deep or easy it is to play Tekken because they are never going to invest that kind of time in it to begin with.
I also want to point out something that pretty much no one here would know but me. Tekken 6 despite being far more financially successful than Tag 2 and an easier game brought in absolutely no new players into the Tekken scene. The only new Tekken player from the T6 era was Renikon. Everyone else was from the DR era or before. Tag 2 brought in waaaaayyy more new players. In fact so many of the players in tournaments today are players where Tag 2 is their first competitive Tekken.
Think about that. Tag 2 is the hardest game in the entire series to learn yet it drew in so many new players. It's just more proof that like I've been saying, dumbing down the game itself will not bring in new players, marketing will.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
I would build a story through the release of trailers. Every character reveal trailer would be cinematic and give you an idea of the characters personality, their goals, and what their story is going to be about. CG video for each character introduced. Make it feel important. Make it so that any Tekken fan who played any version of the game feels like they have to see how it all ends. Making people invested in the characters is key. Also every character would have 2 default costumes. One "Classic" costume and one "New" costume. All or the CG art and promotion would be of the new costumes but you would see the old costumes in the gameplay of trailers so you could reassure fans that if they don't like the new outfit, the old classic one is there for them to enjoy.
If you see a disconnect in TR a tenth of a second after the announcer says 'Fight!' of a new round, it is the game that dropped you both, not the opponent quitting.
At least it gives back your gold ticket/coin when it happens.
Why are you not in charge of marketing?^^
I totally agree with you. Nina's reveal trailer would be her meeting Steve for example. Just give us something to look forward to, story-wise. No boring trailers with recycled moves and rage arts, which are nothing but a few old moves in a row.
THIS.
FormallyFamicom
Member
Tag 2 wasn't marketed well either. I'd say scene growth for the game is attributed to better netcode and social media/Twitch. Everybody knows everybody now.
I don't know. I think TTT2 did pretty good marketing. Read my old post.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=43195746&postcount=6526
It just didn't sell as well for a variety of reasons:
-General decline in Tekken popularity
-DoA5 released the same month
-Lots of other fighting game releases that same year (i.e. SCV, SFXTK, VF5:FS, BlazBlue, P4A, etc.).
-End of console lifecycle
Rhazer Fusion
Member
dp
Rhazer Fusion
Member
I honestly do still equate the gore and violence in Mortal Kombat to the fan service in DOA5. DOA5 generally loves to exhibit new outfits and certain technological "features" while I noticed most of the earlier Mortal Kombat teaser trailers and previews displayed it's gore and fatalities. When people think of Mortal Kombat generally, they associate it with violence, blood and gore the same way they think of sexy women/fan service with DOA. Gore actually was mostly responsible for Mortal Kombat's success especially the earlier games(SNES vs Genesis versions), but imo as soon as MK9 and MKX materialized and revisited it's 2D roots, it became a more in-depth competitive fighter. Must admit though, Mortal Kombat has came a long way from it's previous offerings and evolved considerably.
I do feel like Mortal Kombat has to push the proverbial envelop and evolve more then Tekken because the earlier games while admittedly enjoyable lacked the depth and more complex gameplay mechanics of a Virtua Fighter, Street Fighter or Tekken. Also, imo they had to rework the animations in MK because I feeling most of them were rather clunky and robotic. They did implement a few changes to the core mechanics which I do like so far. I also think another reason MKX is increasing in popularity because aesthetically, not only does it change more, but it's probably more pleasing to most causals gamer's eyes. For example, a lot of people prefers Scorpion's sinister look over an anime fighter or cute girl in a 2D/3D or Mortal Kombat's dark and morbid atmosphere/environments.
I think Tekken 7 marketing will pick up once the console release draws near. The game is still so far off, so I am expecting(hoping) we will see a fairly immense and memorable marketing campaign for Tekken 7 since this is the first current generation installment.
Interesting. I still do not see the comparison in Tekken and MKX besides a handful of features, but I'm definitely not the authority on those types of things lol.
I do feel like Mortal Kombat has to push the proverbial envelop and evolve more then Tekken because the earlier games while admittedly enjoyable lacked the depth and more complex gameplay mechanics of a Virtua Fighter, Street Fighter or Tekken. Also, imo they had to rework the animations in MK because I feeling most of them were rather clunky and robotic. They did implement a few changes to the core mechanics which I do like so far. I also think another reason MKX is increasing in popularity because aesthetically, not only does it change more, but it's probably more pleasing to most causals gamer's eyes. For example, a lot of people prefers Scorpion's sinister look over an anime fighter or cute girl in a 2D/3D or Mortal Kombat's dark and morbid atmosphere/environments.
I think Tekken 7 marketing will pick up once the console release draws near. The game is still so far off, so I am expecting(hoping) we will see a fairly immense and memorable marketing campaign for Tekken 7 since this is the first current generation installment.
Interesting. I still do not see the comparison in Tekken and MKX besides a handful of features, but I'm definitely not the authority on those types of things lol.
Kinda wonder how they all sold in comparison to each other.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
I knew this would come up after I posted that last night. That's really not the point of the post though. The point is that changing the game and making it easier does not equal more people play it.
Marketing doesn't even have to be so elaborate. It's pretty simple in my eyes: just make a game that compels people to play. The social media hype that follows will carry it forward. There is only so much the marketing team at namco can do to when the game looks almost identical to a game they can pick up for free on the PSstore.
I do think you're forgetting two extremely important things that MK absolutely destroyed Tekken 7 in: presentation and discovery. Every character got brand new outfits, new moves all across the board, not a single grab, super/x-ray, or fatality recycled from the previous game taking advantage of all the new technology the game offered. And secondly, MKX gave everyone so much room to explore and discover strategies which is one of the most enjoyable aspects of fighting games in general. It is incredibly refreshing to experience a brand new game where legacy skills don't apply.
I do think you're forgetting two extremely important things that MK absolutely destroyed Tekken 7 in: presentation and discovery. Every character got brand new outfits, new moves all across the board, not a single grab, super/x-ray, or fatality recycled from the previous game taking advantage of all the new technology the game offered. And secondly, MKX gave everyone so much room to explore and discover strategies which is one of the most enjoyable aspects of fighting games in general. It is incredibly refreshing to experience a brand new game where legacy skills don't apply.
I'm so glad you mentioned this because it's so interesting how the roles have reversed through time. Back in the early 3D Mortal Kombat times it was Tekken that was considered the realistic and gritty styled fighting game between Tekken 3 and Tekken 5. Tekken had far more realistic animations and grounded fighting styles appealing to the casual audience more than Mortal Kombat that was considered very cartoony. It's so surreal that a decade later their roles would reverse and (surprise) the success also reversed.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
I think maybe sales order goes like this:
SFXTK > TTT2 > SCV > DoA5 > P4A > Blazblue > VF5FS
Just my guess lol
Poor VF.
Maybe the series would have caught on in America had it not been exclusive to unpopular systems like the Sega 32x, Sega Saturn, and Sega Dreamcast for the first three entries.
I'm not supposed to be talking about Tekken 7 so I'll just address this once and probably won't reply afterward.
1. Discovery --> It's best to talk about this when you have the game in your hands. Based on the different STL combo videos, it's very clear that there are going to be many ways to be creative. Most recent case in point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzsqLFU6GRE
Unfortunately, what limits Tekken as a franchise for the worldwide audience is that Asia always gets the game first and they go through many of the possibilities beforehand anyway. TTT2 still remains unexplored and untapped imo but it's also not hard to see that before we got the game in our hands in North America, Asia had already done a lot of the "discovery" for us.
2. Presentation --> Also my subjective viewpoint but Tekken 7 is shaping up to be the best looking fighter thus far. Kane uploaded 1080p 60FPS vids on his channel and the game is definitely looking amazing. Every person that has seen the game in person has said the game is really looking good. I think your main problem is reuse of the same default costumes. But to be honest, when the customs are of exceptionally good quality and may as well be defaults, I can see Harada's point about not having a second default costume. Another case in point:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndFMGBAjQtU
The other issue you have is use of same legacy animations. While I think they can update these, it's also a more difficult task considering the command list sizes. And I don't think it's fair to compare animation upgrades across Mortal Kombat and Tekken anyway considering MK has far less animations to worry about. And despite updates, MK still plays clunky as hell in 2015.
Having said all of this, I completely agree with you that the Tekken series really needed a new look. Tekken 7 needed to be another Tekken 4 as far as presentation and design goes. Unfortunately, that's not the case and they've quite possibly made the worse designs in series history for new characters. But the game's already well developed and it's too late to change that now. It has its flaws but I'm really looking forward to 1v1 Tekken in 1080p 60fps. Until it releases, I really don't want to bother talking about Tekken 7 anymore. It's the same repeated discussion over and over again. Just let things happen as they're happening and see the end result before making broad judgments. Who knows I might end up hating Tekken 7 and then I'll be really done with gaming.
You gotta add the Capcom FG hype that made stream monsters hostile to games that isn't SF4 or Marvel, as one of the reasons.
Seriously, for Tag 2 to even do well over all kinds of circumstances thrown at it speaks alot about the game.
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