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Television Displays and Technology Thread: This is a fantasy based on OLED

Remk

Member
So I was looking to purchase a 1080p TV on the 40-43 inches range and was looking to by a Sony model for around $300-350.

But while looking at prices I saw some 4k sets at the $400 range and that piqued my interest, particularly the Samsung UN43KU6000.

Will it be a good idea to grab this for my existing 1080p devices (particularly the PS4 slim) and will the extra cost be worth it?
I figure this may not have all the bells and whistles of other sets, but would this be a good option for 4k content?

I'd appreciate your input GAF
 

Haint

Member
So I was looking to purchase a 1080p TV on the 40-43 inches range and was looking to by a Sony model for around $300-350.

But while looking at prices I saw some 4k sets at the $400 range and that piqued my interest, particularly the Samsung UN43KU6000.

Will it be a good idea to grab this for my existing 1080p devices (particularly the PS4 slim) and will the extra cost be worth it?
I figure this may not have all the bells and whistles of other sets, but would this be a good option for 4k content?

I'd appreciate your input GAF

Assuming this is your countries equivalent to the KU6300/6290 in America, it's a fantastic set well worth the small price premium and should be markedly better than any comparable 1080p models.
 
Really starting to consider going for a B7 or C7. For all the reasons mentioned here, plus that it's an investment in the future. I mean I don't expect to be buying another TV anytime soon after this one. Just watched HDTVTest's professional expert review of the B7 and it turns out there definitely are some real improvements over the 6 models.

The thing is, am I actually going to notice the difference between 30-34ms and 21ms?
 

tokkun

Member
The thing is, am I actually going to notice the difference between 30-34ms and 21ms?

Really depends on your sensitivity and the type of games you play. For rhythm games that don't support input lag compensation you could probably detect that difference. Maybe if you are a very high-level player of 2D fighters or twitch shooters. Otherwise, probably not.
 
Owners and future owners of the B7/C7 (or any 2017 LG OLED), good news! LG fixed the colour gamut issue in PC mode with firmware 03.60.09!
Selecting "Auto" now looks as it should and you can clearly see the difference with the oversaturated "Wide"!

If you want the most responsive OLED of 2017 then this TV is a no brainer. It's a spectaculair gaming TV with just 21ms input latency in PC mode, 4:4:4 Chroma AND no more messed up colour gamut.
Probs to LG for fixing this issue THAT fast, they really listen to their costumers. Awesome.
 
Really depends on your sensitivity and the type of games you play. For rhythm games that don't support input lag compensation you could probably detect that difference. Maybe if you are a very high-level player of 2D fighters or twitch shooters. Otherwise, probably not.

I love to play some Battlefront, Battlefield, Halo and Overwatch. Sounds like this is my TV then :)

Owners and future owners of the B7/C7 (or any 2017 LG OLED), good news! LG fixed the colour gamut issue in PC mode with firmware 03.60.09!
Selecting "Auto" now looks as it should and you can clearly see the difference with the oversaturated "Wide"!

If you want the most responsive OLED of 2017 then this TV is a no brainer. It's a spectaculair gaming TV with just 21ms input latency in PC mode, 4:4:4 Chroma AND no more messed up colour gamut.
Probs to LG for fixing this issue THAT fast, they really listen to their costumers. Awesome.

I've always wondered what 4:4:4 Chroma actually means. Is it mostly for movies or also for gaming? On my previous OLED I used to always use Game mode for shooters because PQ wise it had an edge over the PC input. Game mode doesn't have Chroma though but then again, I've no idea of the benefit of it.
 
I love to play some Battlefront, Battlefield, Halo and Overwatch. Sounds like this is my TV then :)

I've always wondered what 4:4:4 Chroma actually means. Is it mostly for movies or also for gaming?
Very important as PC monitor or anytime with small text. Less so for 3D games as many effects are rendered below native resolution and use anti-aliasing and/or motion blur.

Negligible for Movies and TV shows because they are 4:2:0 to begin with, so the only difference would be if you want to use an external device with better color upsampling than your TV.

See this thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1308591
Loss of chroma detail is most apparent on small elements with high contrast, like any type of text, hence why it's immediately noticeable on PC desktop, in a browser or anywhere with text. When dealing with video it's almost unnoticeable, same is kinda true for games - kinda because some games do have text in them and the general loss of color detail leads to artifacts which may in turn increase aliasing.

Some pictures:

image.axd
Roboto_Comparison_400x.png
Hair_Comparison_400x.png
Colorcomp.jpg
pi0Yt.png
 

Izuna

Banned
recruiting

I'm starting work on a Calibration |OT| and if anyone would like to contribute lemme know and I'll send the google doc link. I'm in the market for an X-Rite i1Display Pro so I've done a lot of reading and realise not even AV Forums has something comprehensive and ELI5

this is a cross-post between this thread and the PC part thread since those are the only two active ones that would have people interested in this
 

III-V

Member
recruiting

I'm starting work on a Calibration |OT| and if anyone would like to contribute lemme know and I'll send the google doc link. I'm in the market for an X-Rite i1Display Pro so I've done a lot of reading and realise not even AV Forums has something comprehensive and ELI5

this is a cross-post between this thread and the PC part thread since those are the only two active ones that would have people interested in this

I like this topic, here are some good links to get started with:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=226328947&postcount=130
 

shockdude

Member
recruiting

I'm starting work on a Calibration |OT| and if anyone would like to contribute lemme know and I'll send the google doc link. I'm in the market for an X-Rite i1Display Pro so I've done a lot of reading and realise not even AV Forums has something comprehensive and ELI5

this is a cross-post between this thread and the PC part thread since those are the only two active ones that would have people interested in this
Oh nice, great thread idea.
Be sure to make it clear that the thread is about display calibration specifically (and not e.g. audio equalization).
Also consider that there are people who just want "good-enough" calibration without buying a calibration device (like myself lol).
Might also want to consider discouraging the sharing of white balance settings and the like due to display variation.
 

Izuna

Banned
I like this topic, here are some good links to get started with:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=226328947&postcount=130

Yes!

I'll make it my weekend project. It'll feel like a right to passage before I spend £200 on a hobbyist item that'll last 3 years, haha

Calibrating by eye, how to calibrate displays without available settings etc. and a brief explanation on why White Balance is so important (and why 6500 isn't always optimal depending on your light sources) are some things I want to include.

I imagine a lot of people would use the thread as a way to ask for settings for their specific model TV or Monitor. I don't know anything about it yet, but looking into variances between displays and where the calibration would have the largest margin of error is something I have to do a little research on.

Last but not least, ICC profiles, why games ignore calibration settings and what to do about it.

In the meantime, I stumbled upon this one image that is basically changing my life right now: http://imgur.com/a/BuPNq (must view it at 100% scaling) -- if both sides are a grey gradient or very close then you got 2.20 Gamma sorted.

Also consider that there are people who just want "good-enough" calibration without buying a calibration device (like myself lol).

Well, one tip atm is to try and make your device look like a new MacBook or Surface screen haha

--- But yeah, I want to do this right because I'm like, below amateur for this stuff and it would be a great place to have our very own AVForums like section.

Thanks for the title suggestion, I'll definitely do that.
 

Vitacat

Member
Recommendations for the best 40-ish inch TVs these days? Prefer 39-40 inch, but can maybe do 42-43 if necessary. Space limited.

Need to replace a dead 32 inch Samsung that died after just 2 years, so no Samsungs please. I am burned on the brand and don't trust their quality.

Will be used mainly for 1080p games, and don't mind spending for 4K to be a little future-proof. But a very good 1080p could be fine too. Thank you.

EDIT: looking at Sony xbr43x800e. Worth the money? I can afford it, but it's obviously very expensive for its size.
 

Remk

Member
Assuming this is your countries equivalent to the KU6300/6290 in America, it's a fantastic set well worth the small price premium and should be markedly better than any comparable 1080p models.

I was looking earlier at the US website for the KU6300 and the product description looked almost the same for the KU6000 Mexican one, so they seem to be from same series.

And I think I'll go for it, it's like $120 more from the 1080p that I wanted to buy and seems to be a good set, thanks Reallink
 

Jill Sandwich

the turds of Optimus Prime
I'm after a 43 inches to replace my 10 year old Samsung M86. I keep flip flopping between an LG 43UH750 and the Sony 43XD80. I really like LG's WebOS and it has NowTV which I'd have to cast on the Sony, though the Sony has MUCH better response time for gaming.
 
Very important as PC monitor or anytime with small text. Less so for 3D games as many effects are rendered below native resolution and use anti-aliasing and/or motion blur.

Negligible for Movies and TV shows because they are 4:2:0 to begin with, so the only difference would be if you want to use an external device with better color upsampling than your TV.

See this thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1308591

Very very helpful. Thanks for this!
 
More competition is a good thing

The Toshiba X97 is a 65-inch OLED television whose WRGB panel would have been sourced from LG Display, the sole vendor of commercially-viable, TV-sized OLED panels at this time of writing (June 2017). Like all other 2017 OLEDs we've reviewed to date, the Toshiba 65X97 features a flat-screen form factor, native UHD (ultra high-definition) resolution of 3840×2160, 99% DCI-P3 colour gamut coverage, and no 3D support.

The Japanese brand claims the X9763 offers a game mode with an input lag of less than 1ms. To date, no television we've measured using a Leo Bodnar tester has delivered a lag time below 14ms, so it's very possible that Toshiba is using a different methodology. Nevertheless, it's exciting to see the firm recognising the importance of low latency to gamers.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/toshiba-x97-201706014472.htm
 

Lima

Member
If true, that's crazy. This OLED would feel as responsive as an freaking CRT.

It won't be true. Even the fastest monitor on the market still has an input lag of 8ms.

That claim is horseshit. Just like when monitor manufactures like to cite response time and people mistake that for input lag.
 
It won't be true. Even the fastest monitor on the market still has an input lag of 8ms.

That claim is horseshit. Just like when monitor manufactures like to cite response time and people mistake that for input lag.

Sounds too good to be true, indeed. I also think the "less than 1ms" is just the pixel response time of OLED.

We'll see though, Vincent Teoh is going to the Toshiba launch event today. I hope he brings his Leo Bodnar with him.
 

h3ro

Member
Can't wait to see OLED become more widely used.

Currently have a VT60 for films and a Samsung KS8000 for gaming. Pretty happy with this combo until OLED prices drop further and 4k becomes more widespread.

Hopefully a 75" OLED won't cost obscene amounts in 2 years.
 

shockdude

Member
It won't be true. Even the fastest monitor on the market still has an input lag of 8ms.

That claim is horseshit. Just like when monitor manufactures like to cite response time and people mistake that for input lag.
Heck the fastest CRT will have a measured input lag of 8.333ms. It's a fundamental limit of 60Hz displays.
A 1ms input lag is possible but only if your display and content is 500Hz lol.
 

DesertFox

Member
I'm dying to see some reviews of the TCL 55p607. I'm only aware of rtings.com and avsforum for TV reviews. Anybody know of any other respectable review sites that have a review of the new TCL P series up yet? (Other than the avsforum first look)
 

Lasty95

Member
Can anyone offer some advice on a very particular question?

I'm about to move from the UK to NSW Australia. Keen to buy the OLED b6 that Eurogamer were raving about and take it with me, bit I've been advised by a friend that it won't work in Australia, at least for watching regular TV.

Can anyone clear this up for me?

TVs appear way more expensive in Australia and the specific TV i want doesn't seem to be available.

Thanks.
 

Paragon

Member
Heck the fastest CRT will have a measured input lag of 8.333ms. It's a fundamental limit of 60Hz displays.
A 1ms input lag is possible but only if your display and content is 500Hz lol.
8.33ms is if you measure the middle of the display due to scanout.
The top will measure less than 1ms. Less than 0.1ms if you had hardware capable of measuring that.

It should be possible for an OLED to support that, though I am also skeptical of the claim.
That said, Toshiba TVs have been known for their very low latency game modes.

Can anyone offer some advice on a very particular question?
I'm about to move from the UK to NSW Australia. Keen to buy the OLED b6 that Eurogamer were raving about and take it with me, bit I've been advised by a friend that it won't work in Australia, at least for watching regular TV.
Can anyone clear this up for me?
TVs appear way more expensive in Australia and the specific TV i want doesn't seem to be available.
Thanks.
The OTA tuner probably won't be compatible.
But you should be able to work around that by buying a set-top box that hooks up via HDMI.

Australia is 240V 50Hz like the UK is, so you won't have to deal with stepdown converters etc.
Just need to change the plug with an adapter.

I think Australia are even a PAL region too - not that it really matters with your UK TV being PAL as well.
PAL TVs generally support PAL + NTSC (50 + 60 Hz), while a lot of NTSC TVs only support NTSC. (60Hz)
 

rou021

Member
recruiting

I'm starting work on a Calibration |OT| and if anyone would like to contribute lemme know and I'll send the google doc link. I'm in the market for an X-Rite i1Display Pro so I've done a lot of reading and realise not even AV Forums has something comprehensive and ELI5

this is a cross-post between this thread and the PC part thread since those are the only two active ones that would have people interested in this

That sounds like a great idea. I've been calibrating my own displays as a hobby for the past few years. Through the DIY route, I've learned quite a bit about calibration and can help out if you'd like.
 
I was looking earlier at the US website for the KU6300 and the product description looked almost the same for the KU6000 Mexican one, so they seem to be from same series.

And I think I'll go for it, it's like $120 more from the 1080p that I wanted to buy and seems to be a good set, thanks Reallink

Nice. Not familiar with that TV but yeah that's not much more to be able jump to 4K and, if it's indeed good, a lot of these 4K tvs handle 1080p stuff very well and then you can also watch the 4K content too.
 

Izuna

Banned
That sounds like a great idea. I've been calibrating my own displays as a hobby for the past few years. Through the DIY route, I've learned quite a bit about calibration and can help out if you'd like.

Sounds great, I'll link you to the google docs when it isn't embarrassing!
 

shockdude

Member
8.33ms is if you measure the middle of the display due to scanout.
The top will measure less than 1ms. Less than 0.1ms if you had hardware capable of measuring that.

It should be possible for an OLED to support that, though I am also skeptical of the claim.
That said, Toshiba TVs have been known for their very low latency game modes.
Every reviewer these days measures input lag from the middle of the display. A manufacturer measuring input lag from the top instead of from the middle is being deceptive and will be called out by reviewers.
"1ms input lag from the top" or "1ms response time" are both excellent numbers, but neither should be called "1ms input lag."
 

Paragon

Member
Every reviewer these days measures input lag from the middle of the display. A manufacturer measuring input lag from the top instead of from the middle is being deceptive and will be called out by reviewers.
"1ms input lag from the top" or "1ms response time" are both excellent numbers, but neither should be called "1ms input lag."
Measuring only the middle of the display is bad practice.
If you are only going to provide a single measurement, it would ideally be taken from the first line of the display - preferably upper-left corner.
At 60Hz the lowest you can measure from the middle of the screen is 8.33ms even if the display had nanosecond latency.
It just doesn't make sense to measure that, and also assumes that you manage to measure the exact center of the display every time for consistency.

Ideally you would provide both upper-left and lower-right corner measurements - or top and bottom if you're using the Bodnar lag tester.
Middle is the least useful information you can provide.

Upper-left corner tells you the display latency.
Upper-left corner combined with the lower-right corner tells you the scanout duration, so you know if it's updating the panel all at once, doing a regular scanout, or an accelerated scanout.

The middle tells you none of that.
It just gives you an "average" measurement whatever that is supposed to mean.


Here's an example of why it's a bad measurement.
Which of these three displays is best?
  • OLED TV: 16.67ms latency (middle)
  • LCD TV: 18.75ms latency (middle)
  • Plasma TV: 20.00ms latency (middle)
It's the Plasma TV, followed by the LCD, and then the OLED.
  1. Plasma TV: Top-Left: 20.00ms, Bottom-Right: 20.00ms
  2. LCD TV: Top-Left: 16.67ms, Bottom-Right: 20.83ms
  3. OLED TV: Top-Left: 8.33ms, Bottom-Right: 25ms
The Plasma TV buffers a frame, has 3.33ms latency on top of that, and updates the entire panel at once.
The LCD TV buffers a frame (16.67ms) and does an accelerated scanout at 240Hz. (4.17ms)
The OLED TV has an 8.33ms processing delay and then does a regular 60Hz scanout. (16.67ms)

There's no way to know any of this with the middle measurement.
The top measurement doesn't give you the full picture either, but at least it tells you the image processing latency minus scanout.
Or the lower-right would give you the maximum latency - but means that your scale starts at 16.67 for 60Hz measurements rather than 0.

Why would I rank the Plasma TV better than the LCD despite the LCD being lower latency for 2/3 of the image?
Because the global updating of the display panel completely eliminates image skew caused by the scanout.
That's a bigger deal than a couple of milliseconds of latency in the upper-half of the image.
 

Jigolo

Member
Just read the article on flatpanels. The writer said the press release for the TV is referring to the response time of the TV not the input lag. For those who don't know, OLED TVs have a 0.1 response time so this really isn't news. I think Vincent just misinterpreted the PR.
 

RetroMG

Member
I'm dying to see some reviews of the TCL 55p607. I'm only aware of rtings.com and avsforum for TV reviews. Anybody know of any other respectable review sites that have a review of the new TCL P series up yet? (Other than the avsforum first look)

I'm dying for it to be available anywhere other than Amazon with a 2-3 month wait.
 

Dave_6

Member
Ordered a Oppo UDP-203 yesterday. Excited to check it out and compare it to my Xbox One S. I've had a BDP-83 since the first year it was released and it's still going strong.
 

shockdude

Member
Measuring only the middle of the display is bad practice.
If you are only going to provide a single measurement, it would ideally be taken from the first line of the display - preferably upper-left corner.
At 60Hz the lowest you can measure from the middle of the screen is 8.33ms even if the display had nanosecond latency.
It just doesn't make sense to measure that, and also assumes that you manage to measure the exact center of the display every time for consistency.

Ideally you would provide both upper-left and lower-right corner measurements - or top and bottom if you're using the Bodnar lag tester.
Middle is the least useful information you can provide.

Upper-left corner tells you the display latency.
Upper-left corner combined with the lower-right corner tells you the scanout duration, so you know if it's updating the panel all at once, doing a regular scanout, or an accelerated scanout.

The middle tells you none of that.
It just gives you an "average" measurement whatever that is supposed to mean.
Well yeah, no single measurement will give the full story of input lag due to scanout, but middle (average) is far from the least useful information you can provide. Maximum alone is even less useful, and I would argue that minimum alone is also not useful. Average is an actually useful metric for comparison across brands and reviews. Two displays with identical minimum input lag can differ in average input lag by up to 8.33ms for a 60Hz display. No human can perceive the sub-millisecond difference from not measuring the exact middle of the display.
An average of 8.33ms says a lot, namely that this particular display has the lowest possible 60Hz input lag.
The vast, vast majority of TVs and PC monitors scanout, and nobody ever complains about image skew. I'm impressed that you can even notice it. Even with scanout information, I would still purchase the OLED over the Plasma due to the lower average input lag.

If you really want input lag info for the top and bottom of the screen to be more publicly available, submit a question to Rtings.
 
Which OLED is better the LG B6 or C6? The C6 is about $200 cheaper near me but it has 3D correct? Is this due to it being curved?? Is being curved that big of a deal??
 

MTC100

Banned
OLED is great and all but aside from being pricier than an LCD it's still pretty bad as a TV Monitor, or did they get rid of burn ins yet? I guess you could use one if you made the taskbar not always visible and used internet browsers in fullscreen mode all the time but even then there's the small 5 pixel line of the taskbar that is always shown at the bottom.

I guess my next TV(first UHD) will be yet again an LCD as I will hook my PC up on it as usual... -Unless there is some kind of technology that prevents screen burn in by then but that might have to come soon, very soon.
 

e90Mark

Member
Which OLED is better the LG B6 or C6? The C6 is about $200 cheaper near me but it has 3D correct? Is this due to it being curved?? Is being curved that big of a deal??

Curve aside, C6 has 3D, inhouse SoC, and 1 less HDMI port. Get the C6 if you want 3D.

B6 has a mediatek(?, something outsourced) SoC, so updates may not be as frequent.

I have a C6 and I don't really notice the curve. I admire the 3D though, it's the best I've experienced and I have a relatively large 3D library.
 
Curve aside, C6 has 3D, inhouse SoC, and 1 less HDMI port. Get the C6 if you want 3D.

B6 has a mediatek(?, something outsourced) SoC, so updates may not be as frequent.

I have a C6 and I don't really notice the curve. I admire the 3D though, it's the best I've experienced and I have a relatively large 3D library.

Thanks for your input. After seeing the C6 in person it looked sharper than the b6 so I'm leaning in that direction
 

Weevilone

Member
Thanks for your input. After seeing the C6 in person it looked sharper than the b6 so I'm leaning in that direction

There's no reason the C6 should look sharper than the B6, so that was probably settings or something. By all means, choose it for the SoC, 3D, etc.. but don't do it on perceived image quality differences.
 

TehOh

Member
So, looking to upgrade after almost 10 years with my current TV (it's still 720p!).

I've budgeted up to $1000, and I'd like something that is a max of 55 inches, but less is fine. What's the best I can get in that range? I'd like it to have 4K + HDR.

Would it be better to wait a little longer? My TV still works, I'm just itching to spend some money and upgrade. :)
 

Jigolo

Member
So, looking to upgrade after almost 10 years with my current TV (it's still 720p!).

I've budgeted up to $1000, and I'd like something that is a max of 55 inches, but less is fine. What's the best I can get in that range? I'd like it to have 4K + HDR.

Would it be better to wait a little longer? My TV still works, I'm just itching to spend some money and upgrade. :)

Samsung KS8000 55"
 
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