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[Arksy]

OK, this one is bittersweet:

"Oh no... not them..."

That's awesome.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Monstrous act. Scary too, that they were able to pull it off.

Irish Equivalent had this: http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2015/01/07/satire-vows-not-to-negotiate-with-terrorists/

The human race has also encouraged people to speculate on the laughably minute size of the terrorists’ penises if it helps in any way to bring a smile to their faces.

LOL

 

[Volimar]

It's funny Ina bittersweet way, that those cartoons are getting shown all over the place since the attack. Good work, you terrorist buffoons.

 

[R_thanatos]

This event is ..
well i want to say how i feel right now but i can't speak properly in english ..
As a french citizen , this is one of the most disturbing days for me , that will have consequences in ways that can't be seen yet.

"JE SUIS CHARLIE"

Can't believe this happenned.

 

[Skinpop]

They should leave the UK then. An immigrant does not necessarily need to totally adapt to the culture in which they now find themselves. Some adaptation like learning the language, and some customs are kind of required. That being said, the country they move to does not have an obligation to change to fit what they want.

sadly, the paradigm of today is multiculturalism, not assimilation... so yeah.

 

[Mr.Swag]

This is going to lead to a backlash of even more "Draw Muhammad" cartoons. Though not by the press, of course, which is unfortunate.

Why is it bad?
Can't people draw whatever they want?

 

[Mononoke]

It's funny Ina bittersweet way, that those cartoons are getting shown all over the place since the attack. Good work, you terrorist buffoons.

Many had never seen them or even knew they existed. Now these will be everywhere and the world will know.

 

[lawlohwhat]

It's scary that a dictionary definition could be trying to take the meaning out of a word, instead of the opposite. That doesn't seem to be the case here, though. That definition doesn't say what you think it says.

Philosophy is about wisdom, knowledge. Philosophy straight up condemns the dogma-based structure of any religion. Read up.

Dogma is definitely an enemy of many great philosophers but good religious ideas are very closely tied to go philosophical ideas. Modern philosophy was born out of mythical storytelling, western philosophy specifically from Greek poems about gods, adventure, good v evil, etc. I think what you're saying is generally true, though, dogmatic thinking was precisely what Plato and others were critiquing.

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

Well to start off:

[Affleck]
So hold on – are you the person who understands the officially codified doctrine of Islam? You are the interpreter of that.

[Sam Harris:]
What – I’m…

[Sam Harris:]
I’m actually well educated on this topic.

So Harris is saying that he knows what the true Islam is and then goes on to say

[Sam Harris:]
But Islam – Islam at the moment is the mother lode of bad ideas.

So Sam knows what the officially codified doctrine of Islam is and that additionally it is the mother lode of bad ideas and you don't think that paints all Muslims who think they're real believing Muslims with one giant stroke?

Especially when he goes on to say:

[Sam Harris:]
Let me just give you what you want. There are hundreds of millions of Muslims who are nominal Muslims who don’t take the faith seriously, who don’t want to kill apostates, who are horrified by ISIS and we need to defend these people, prop them up and let them reform their faith.
So he's confirming this by going Reverse True Scotsman. Any Muslim who doesn't support ISIS IS NOT A TRUE MUSLIM and only a NOMINAL ONE THAT DOESN'T TAKE THE FAITH SERIOUSLY because of course everyone knows TRUE MUSLIMS are fucking insane.

Well I think of myself as a true Muslim and Sam Harris doesn't get to define what my faith is as he does and as everyone does who finds out I'm Muslim and starts making judgement calls about my mental state and what I do or do not believe before I've even had a chance to say anything or expects me to apologize for what these fucking attackers did in Paris as if I'm somehow responsible for it.

I condemned those bastards earlier in the thread because I hate their guts and everything they stand for but I shouldn't be in a situation where I'm EXPECTED to do so or else I'm somehow complicit in what they did.

I think you are angry at the wrong people.

 

[Alx]

OK, this one is bittersweet:

"Oh no... not them..."

Reminds me of the one from Zep, it was cute and funny (though not political)

 

[Archer]

france about to fuck the world if they can't catch these guys

I will gladly get out of the way and let them until they do. What can I do to assist?

 

[ComputerMKII]

From that article:



Pretty disgusting.

That guy can fuck off. You can't trade freedom for security: they're the exact same thing.

 

[Jb]

This event is ..
well i want to say how i feel right now but i can't speak properly in english ..
As a french citizen , this is one of the most disturbing days for me , that will have consequences in ways that can't be seen yet.

I dunno, I think we can see how a little too well right now.

 

[commedieu]

Well to start off:

[Affleck]
So hold on – are you the person who understands the officially codified doctrine of Islam? You are the interpreter of that.

[Sam Harris:]
What – I’m…

[Sam Harris:]
I’m actually well educated on this topic.

So Harris is saying that he knows what the true Islam is and then goes on to say

[Sam Harris:]
But Islam – Islam at the moment is the mother lode of bad ideas.

So Sam knows what the officially codified doctrine of Islam is and that additionally it is the mother lode of bad ideas and you don't think that paints all Muslims who think they're real believing Muslims with one giant stroke?

Especially when he goes on to say:

Sam Harris:]
Let me just give you what you want. There are hundreds of millions of Muslims who are nominal Muslims who don’t take the faith seriously, who don’t want to kill apostates, who are horrified by ISIS and we need to defend these people, prop them up and let them reform their faith. So he's confirming this by going Reverse True Scotsman. Any Muslim who doesn't support ISIS IS NOT A TUE MUSLIM and only a NOMINAL ONE THAT DOESN'T TAKE THE FAITH SERIOUSLY because of course everyone knows TRUE MUSLIMS are fucking insane.

Well I think of myself as a true Muslim and Sam Harris doesn't get to define what my faith is as he does and as everyone does who finds out I'm Muslim and starts making judgement calls about my mental state and what I do or do not believe before I've even had a chance to say anything or expects me to apologize for what these fucking attackers did in Paris as if I'm somehow responsible for it.

Oh no Azih, i was told they were JUST literally arguing statistics. That ben afleck had made a mistake confronting those #'s. No broad brushes. That is all that was said during the segment. Not generalized bullshit.

This is what irritates me, instead of having the temerity to admit that Mahr and harris had clear agendas with what they were saying during the segment. You have people here trying to steer others into a direction that they were just simply talking about numbers, and ben afleck was an douchebag because he doesn't understand math. Nope. Fucker called it the motherload. Yet, still..

 

[Frodo]

Unlikely to fix anything. People would just radicalize over political or philosophical or economic ideals. I wonder how much difference taking the divine out of it would change.

I reckon people would be way less prone to shooting other people if they didn't believe their "salvation" depends on that.

 

[Real Hero]

OK, this one is bittersweet:

"Oh no... not them..."

I like this

 

[Keasar]

I just saw the eyewitness video on Vice.

So fucking horrible...

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Reminds me of the one from Zep, it was cute and funny (though not political)

What does this say? My french is rusty. I can't read the title and all I think I get is god saying. For once your early (?or something?)

 

[Doc Holliday]

Saying is "Islam is the motherload of bad ideas" is not the same as saying "100% percent of all Muslims are radicals"

if you can't see then what's the point of discussing this.

Also saying Islam is dumb is not bigotry, the same way saying Christianity is inherently bad is not bigotry.

Criticizing shitty ideas is not the same as criticizing people. This distinction is important and the people who committed these crimes are probably confused about this as well.

 

[Althane]

Why is it bad?
Can't people draw whatever they want?

I think he was saying that it was unfortunate that it won't be the press doing the "Draw Mohammed" cartoons, not that it was unfortunate that people would do the "Draw Mohammed "cartoons.

 

[Volimar]

Why is it bad?
Can't people draw whatever they want?

I think he meant it was unfortunate that most news organizations will still be too spineless to publish the cartoons.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

I dunno, I think we can see how a little too well right now.

Allah help us!

 

[ComputerMKII]

Je suis Charlie

Your tag is epic as fuck.

 

[King Tubby]

This is going to lead to a backlash of even more "Draw Muhammad" cartoons. Though not by the press, of course, which is unfortunate.

It's funny Ina bittersweet way, that those cartoons are getting shown all over the place since the attack. Good work, you terrorist buffoons.

This is partly what they want and expect, however. Of course people will be outraged and not be silenced. The cartoons and other accompanying sentiments will still offend moderate Muslims even if it doesn't drive them to insane rage. They want to fuel more of a divide, they want to increase the resentment and hatred between non-radical Muslims and the West, they want more to become radical as a result.

 

[dosh]

This is going to lead to a backlash of even more "Draw Muhammad" cartoons. Though not by the press, of course, which is unfortunate.

For the past 6 hours, my facebook and twitter feeds have been full of jokes, cartoons and drawings expressing their support to Charlie Hebdo. It's actually hilarious and very fortunate.

 

[Psychotext]

I think he was saying that it was unfortunate that it won't be the press doing the "Draw Mohammed" cartoons, not that it was unfortunate that people would do the "Draw Mohammed "cartoons.

We've already seen what the press will do with it. Censor the shit out of it, giving legitimacy to something that should never have even been given a second thought.

 

[Mael]

It just hit me.
Did we just lose Cabu?
As in Cabu the guy I in every journo and everything ?
I mean what?

 

[GameGuru59]

Ben Afleck was upset because Mar and the other person were saying 100% of muslims are X way. They are all just puppets to stir up anti-islam feelings in the population. That night, Ben was on the least douchiest side. Its exactly what the problem is with Americans. 1 speaks for the whole. Their logic applies to the feelings towards the african american population as well. In a not so direct way, but it supports the idea behind Mayor Guliani's statement about why the blacks dont' seem upset at black on black crime. If you're taking that as him being a douche bag, well. Thats a strange conclusion. Christianity, around the world, is still participating in female circumcision. In africa specifically. To hold things accountable that Christians are still doing, is a bizarre disconnect to the point you're making. I don't think you have to stand by and do anything. You take the whole picture for what it is.

Claiming that Islam is inherently bad, is bigotry. Picking and choosing the worst parts, that are still happening in christian ministries, is _____?



Such an incredible point. Which will be muddied in the waters of trying to make Muslims that much more worse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60

Watch this and tell me who presented more facts, and had the more sound and reasonable argument. Ben's argument was dripping with hyperbole. Maher and his guest were basically right on this. Just because you don't like facts about a certain culture doesn't mean there isn't a pervasive elements in a culture that need to be changes. Liberals like Ben Affleck (and I suppose yourself) spend way too much time trying not to offend individuals that they miss the forest.

 

[Azih]

I think you are angry at the wrong people.

I'm angry at a lot of people. It's the state of the world. Should I just shut up and not respond to a poster that for some reason has the impression that Maher and Harris were not in fact painting muslims with a broad brush?

 

[Clinton514]

What does this say? My french is rusty. I can't read the title and all I think I get is god saying. For once your early (?or something?)

"...for once, you're early." That's all.

 

[commedieu]

Saying is "Islam is the motherload of bad ideas" is not the same as saying "100% percent of all Muslims are radicals"

if you can't see then what's the point of discussing this.

Also saying Islam is dumb is not bigotry, the same way saying Christianity is inherently bad is not bigotry.

Criticizing shitty ideas is not the same as criticizing people. This distinction is important and the people who committed these crimes are probably confused about this as well.

Why are we even arguing over this? They made generalized statements. Afleck called them out. People wanted to pretend they were just talking about statistics, and that is where afleck was confused, o r something making him a douchebag. None of that happened. It wasn't said in a vacuum, there was an entire sentiment that kept recurring during the show to make generalized statements towards islam. I said he was upset at the generalizing, nothing afleck said or did on the show made him an asshole for calling out mar and harris for gross blanket statements they were making.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60

Watch this and tell me who presented more facts, and had the more sound and reasonable argument. Ben's argument was dripping with hyperbole. Maher and his guest were basically right on this. Just because you don't like facts about a certain culture doesn't mean there isn't a pervasive elements in a culture that need to be changes. Liberals like Ben Affleck (and I suppose yourself) spend way too much time trying not to offend individuals that they miss the forest.

Nope, just saying that there was a lot of generalizing on the show towards Islam and Muslims. Which is verified by their comments generalizing islam and muslim. Afleck calling them out, (Mar has a history with anti-arab/anti muslim bullshit as well, least we all forget?). This wasn't some innocent show where there was nothing to be found in the idea they were generalizing. Statistics don't back up "Islam being the motherload of bad ideas." Nor does comparing it to a mafia.

 

[motorised mallard]

Because I am religious, I like to believe in God yet I do not do those things. It stems from intolerance like other forms of discrimination.

I do not force my view onto others and don't like people forcing their view onto me that I should not have those beliefs (Not saying YOU are saying that, but I've come across others that have.). Growing up in London, I have had many Muslim friends, they never freaked out if I ate bacon next to them, they never randomly killed people and some of them even crack jokes about their own culture, in my personal experiences I've only met good Muslims who never had an issue about me having a different belief than them.

And one shouldn't try to force his/her beliefs/views on others. Sad truth is that it does happen, teaching "your" beliefs to your possible kids is a kind of forcing those, it doesn't seem like it because they are "your" beliefs but to an outside viewer it is exactly that.

It's problematic to say the least. And I'm not running around trying to get people to drop their beliefs in old story books but I sure would like to see that happen. Sorry about going a bit off topic.

Spoiler

Also your muslim friends weren't proper muslims since they let you live! I'm kidding, I'm technically a muslim. My mothers and her family's religion is islam but even her mother ate pork, so that goes to garbage can.

 

[HK-47]

This is partly what they want and expect, however. Of course people will be outraged and not be silenced. The cartoons and other accompanying sentiments will still offend moderate Muslims even if it doesn't drive them to insane rage. They want to fuel more of a divide, they want to increase the resentment and hatred between non-radical Muslims and the West, they want more to become radical as a result.

Yup, this is the real goal. It means the response has to be measured and it usually isnt to terrorist attacks like this.

 

[TimeEffect]

Why is it bad?
Can't people draw whatever they want?

What do you mean? I'm saying that the press will be too afraid to do it, despite the fact that I'm sure they've done some crude drawings of Jesus. Most people drawing them will be people on the internet, which likely won't have an impact on offending those who take this act so serious enough to want to cause violence.

When the French cartoonists portrayed Muhammad, the media were normalizing Islam as an equal target of free speech, but I doubt we will see this happen again as it seems too risky. The internet doing it (Facebook, youtube, etc). doesn't have the same effect as public media outlets

 

[thelatestmodel]

Saying is "Islam is the motherload of bad ideas" is not the same as saying "100% percent of all Muslims are radicals"

if you can't see then what's the point of discussing this.

Also saying Islam is dumb is not bigotry, the same way saying Christianity is inherently bad is not bigotry.

Criticizing shitty ideas is not the same as criticizing people. This distinction is important and the people who committed these crimes are probably confused about this as well.

Exactly. I'm a big Sam Harris fan and won't hear a word against him, the guy is as level-headed and rational as it gets.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I'm angry at a lot of people. It's the state of the world. Should I just shut up and not respond to a poster that for some reason has the impression that Maher and Harris were not in fact painting muslims with a broad brush?

Hey man I can see why you're angry. Shit, i get crap just because I look middle eastern. However, Maher and Sam harris were arguing with facts, at least with some pretty accurate polls.

Why are we even arguing over this? They made generalized statements. Afleck called them out. People wanted to pretend they were just talking about statistics, and that is where afleck was confused, o r something making him a douchebag. None of that happened. It wasn't said in a vacuum, there was an entire sentiment that kept recurring during the show to make generalized statements towards islam. I said he was upset at the generalizing, nothing afleck said or did on the show made him an asshole for calling out mar and harris for gross blanket statements they were making.

Again, there is nothing wrong with making statements about Islam and it's ideas. There is something wrong about making generalized about Muslim people that are not true. Do you not see the difference? Affleck is saying that Bill and Sam harris made general statements against Muslim people, whuch imo they did not,

 

[Yoritomo]

The religion of Islam is absolute shit.

It is the mediating force of the goodness in the practitioners hearts and souls that gives it any value whatsoever.

Islam makes you worse than you you would have been as a person, community, or society, than you would have been without Islam.

I'd say this about any high cost religion that shuns or kills when someone apostatizes.

 

[peetfeet]

Well, for what it's worth, a Frenchman didn't write that. It's just the mentality of the UK.

ONE person, not the UK. Far from it.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Google France's homepage right now:

 

[Azih]

Hey man I can see why you're angry. Shit, i get crap just because I look middle eastern. However, Maher and Sam harris were arguing with facts, at least with some pretty accurate polls.

Not when Sam Harris basically said he knows what true Islam is (EVIL INSANE) and any Muslim that doesn't support ISIS isn't a true Muslim. Full on logical fallacies and bigoted generalizations that I keep pointing out that Sam Harris fans just seem to ignore every time.

 

[KingSnake]

ELM made a post earlier.

The comments to that post are terrible.

And that's the whole point. Having official reactions from different organisations without having a civil reaction from the community itself to back that up is unfortunately very inefficient.

 

[Mr.Swag]

I think he meant it was unfortunate that most news organizations will still be too spineless to publish the cartoons.

I think he was saying that it was unfortunate that it won't be the press doing the "Draw Mohammed" cartoons, not that it was unfortunate that people would do the "Draw Mohammed "cartoons.

What do you mean? I'm saying that the press will be too afraid to do it, despite the fact that I'm sure they've done some crude drawings of Jesus. Most people drawing them will be people on the internet, which likely won't have an impact on offending those who take this act so serious enough to want to cause violence.

When the French cartoonists portrayed Muhammad, the media were normalizing Islam as an equal target of free speech, but I doubt we will see this happen again as it seems too risky. The internet doing it (Facebook, youtube, etc). doesn't have the same effect as public media outlets

My bad, post confused me. Well, how often do other newspaper/magazines post pics of Muhammad?

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

That's what I'm thinking. It almost seems like this is being done intentionally to make it look like Muslim extremists. What prophet are they evengeing?

I'm not saying it isn't the case and it is what it seems, but I've noticed there are many anti-muslim Europeans, even on this board, and it wouldn't surprise me if it turned out to be some kind of Euro version of extreme right wing group that wants Muslims out of Europe.

WTF? How about you don´t talk shit and generalize about a whole fucking continent.

 

[ComputerMKII]

And here we go (warning: conspiracy theorists):

"Il n’y a que moi que ça surprend que les assassins (pseudo)islamistes abandonnent leur voiture en plein quartier juif, à 290m de la Synagogue Michkenot Israël (6 Rue Jean Nohain, 75019 Paris) ? Curieuse façon de battre en retraite que d’aller à 4 minutes à pieds d’après googlemap d’un endroit ultra protégé par vigipirate ???"

http://www.egaliteetreconciliation....-morts-dont-Charb-Cabu-et-Wolinski-30097.html

 

[TheJLC]

Cowards. My condolences and support to the people of France.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

Let's say I believe wearing hats (of any kind) is deeply offensive, and my religion says that anyone who wears a hat must die. Should you -- and everyone in your society -- oblige me, just because I have a belief based on nothing but faith?

If this hypothetical country has already caved on free dress so much that cargo shorts and fur suits are banned, what's keeping them from banning hats?

Conversely, consider this example: blacks in America believe they are being unfairly discriminated against, and pretty consistently fight for better treatment. Well, it turns out they're right; they are systematically discriminated against. That's pretty important to whether I support their cause, don't you think? If the evidence showed that black people were not discriminated against in any way -- if, for instance, we found that black people had no more trouble getting jobs, no more trouble than other races with the justice system, no more trouble getting housing -- then I think a reasonable person would say "No, this is all in your head, we aren't going to support your movement just because you feel discriminated against. You have to actually be discriminated against."

O...kay? So what legal position would that imply? If there was reasonable evidence that African-Americans weren't being discriminated against (which I do not believe to be the actual case,) and we already had laws that banned speech contrary to reasonable evidence, it would be inconsistent to ban that speech but not speech which claims African-Americans are discriminated against. (NOTE: this applies either way, i.e. if reasonable evidence showed African-Americans are being discriminated against and we already had laws that banned speech contrary to reasonable evidence, it would be inconsistent to ban that speech but not speech which claims African-Americans are not discriminated against.)

Fortunately, in the US, we have free speech so we don't have this sort of inconsistency where we protect one group from speech they don't like while allowing speech that's grossly offensive to another. We allow it all and expect people to wear big person pants (literally, thus the scourge of MickeyD's across the land.)

Generally, we require people have a reasonable foundation for being offended before we oblige them.

Hundreds of years of cultural aren't a reasonable foundation? Causing offense to an sizable group of people isn't a reasonable foundation? Preventing unneeded terrorist attacks isn't a reasonable foundation? Why in France does the Press Law of 1881 (which according to a random Google search tell me criminalizes incitement to racial discrimination, hatred, or violence on the basis of one's origin or membership (or non-membership) in an ethic, national, racial, or religious group) not apply to cartoonists inciting racial hatred by drawing insulting cartoons of Muhammad?

 

[Alx]

What does this say? My french is rusty. I can't read the title and all I think I get is god saying. For once your early (?or something?)

Title : "Cabu, Wolinski, Tignous, Charb, a mean and stupid death"
("mean and stupid" was the motto of the magazine "Hara Kiri" which turned into Charlie Hebdo after being censored).

And yeah God is saying "Cabu ? For once you're early...", since apparently Cabu is known to be late when delivering his drawings (and of course it also means he shouldn't have died so soon).
It is a friendly jab from a fellow cartoonist, I thought it gave even more emotion to it.

 

[Azih]

Again, there is nothing wrong with making statements about Islam and it's ideas

Who defines what Islam is and what its ideas are?

 

[dosh]

What do you mean? I'm saying that the press will be too afraid to do it

I really don't think this is what is going to happen. I get what you mean, but you can safely expect the reaction of the press to be the exact opposite of being afraid and shut up.

 

[RK9039]

The comments to that post are terrible.

And that's the whole point. Having official reactions from different organisations without having a civil reaction from the community itself to back that up is unfortunately very inefficient.

Can't say I blame them for feeling the way they do though.