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Terror attack kills 12 at Paris newspaper - 4 wounded, gunmen identified

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Grug

Member
I'm angry at a lot of people. It's the state of the world. Should I just shut up and not respond to a poster that for some reason has the impression that Maher and Harris were not in fact painting muslims with a broad brush?

I certainly don't think you should shut up, but I think there is a massive amount of confirmation bias in the way you perceived that interview.

Maybe it is because I have a wider context on Harris because I am familiar with his work, but I am absolutely convinced that you have got him all wrong. If Affleck had actually shut up after saying his piece and not monopolised the discussion space in his clamour for the cheap applause, Harris might have actually had a chance to explain his full point.

Affleck embarrassed himself. I was bitterly disappointed with him that night - every inch of him the well-meaning but utterly befuddled Hollywood "liberal".
 

Frodo

Member
they never captured those people yet?

I came back from work and saw the updates of it now being 3 shooters
I hope they catch them and that no more people fall victim to these guys
 
B6wymWdIAAAsqtY.jpg

https://twitter.com/BERLINER_KURIER/status/552872489614069760/photo/1

"No! You cant kill our freedom!"
 
Plenty do, they don't get media coverage so right wing parties are completely unaffected.

majority of Muslims who condemn the acts are ignored by the media and those calling for condemnation and those who are cheered by media and those calling for condemnation are the faux muslims who say Quran should be in the toilet.

its the boogeyman, they cannot move away from the narrative as it gives them coverage and world needs someone to fear . and its sad so many liberal minded folks fell for the fox news mantra about Muslims and Islam. ironic
 

Kabouter

Member
The consequence will be worse than the catalyst (this)

Well, the previous terrorist attacks in Europe committed by people in the name of Islam didn't lead to anything of the sort, why would this be different? Far right parties still aren't close to actually seizing power in any country in Europe that I can see.
 

thelatestmodel

Junior, please.
I certainly don't think you should shut up, but I think there is a massive amount of confirmation bias in the way you perceived that interview.

Maybe it is because I have a wider context on Harris because I am familiar with his work, but I am absolutely convinced that you have got him all wrong. If Affleck had actually shut up after saying his piece and not monopolised the discussion space in his clamour for the cheap applause, Harris might have actually had a chance to explain his full point.

Affleck embarrassed himself. I was bitterly disappointed with him that night - every inch of him the well-meaning but utterly befuddled Hollywood "liberal".

Damn straight. He came across as a blustering fool.
 

Doc Holliday

SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Yep. You can just see it being used to the advantage of ultranationalists in Europe and France now especially since it has the largest Muslim population. Just sad, 12 people lost their lives in a free society for being affiliated with a satirical cartoon that a bunch of terrorist/extremists didn't appreciate.
Hopefully these cowards are caught soon. The US will definitely be helping with this.

Right wing groups are worst fucking assholes, always looking for an opportunity to spread their bullshit.
 

Yoritomo

Member
That's not bigotry, I'm sorry. Clearly you don't see the context in which he says that.

Anyone who intrinsically ties their identity to their religion will be offended if the religion is maligned.

The more high cost the religion and sunk cost the individual has invested the more painful the offense or cognitive dissonance will be.
 

kmax

Member
My condolences to the victims in this tragedy. RIP

Make no mistake about it, this was a calculated strike by highly capable men, possibly aided or directly working for a terrorist group. I hope law enforcement around the globe work diligently to combine their efforts to catch these terrorists as soon as possible.
 

Azih

Member
No he doesn't. He doesn't say any of that. He is well-educated on the subject, but doesn't claim to "know what true Islam is".
And so when Affleck called him out on that in the first section of it what exactly do you think he's saying?

Sam says he's very well educated on Islam
Sam says Islam is a motherload of bad ideas
Sam says Muslims who don't support ISIS aren't serious about their faith.

How the hell, as a Muslim who IS serious about his faith, am I supposed to take that?
 

Kabouter

Member
arguably it would because if a far right comes into power. then we might see state sponsored government led atrocities rather than small groups.

This is such an extremely unlikely scenario that I don't think anyone should seriously entertain it. In what European countries do you see a realistic possibility of a fascist party seizing power? Golden Dawn for instance declined significantly in support.
 

fanboi

Banned
"We shall meet this expression of far-right extremist actions with our own!"

- Far-right french politicians

Yep.

And soon muslims will be forced to wear the star and crescent on their clothes.

And we have anti-muslim demonstrations in Germany.
 

RM8

Member
I'm convinced there's nothing as terrible as religious fundamentalism. These people likely believe they did nothing wrong, they probably believe this is what they're supposed to do according to their world view and their concept of reality.
 

Arksy

Member
Thanks, nice to know that at least the European press has kept its balls while the Anglo-American press, traditionally known as the fucking courageous ones, have capitulated to self-censorship.
 
Anyone who intrinsically ties their identity to their religion will be offended if the religion is maligned.

The more high cost the religion and sunk cost the individual has invested the more painful the offense or cognitive dissonance will be.

seeing this as your view, if you or someone in you as a person or a party or a group was the leader of the nation, what would you do to muslims in your country?
 
I have problem when people get called Bigots without any sort of proof, but whatever.

His comments about Arabs. I'm trying to find the quote, but I cannot find it. Its only his recent stuff that has really been cemented online.

I used to watch Real Time all the time in college, and for a while after, and he has many times said some outrageously racist and bigoted stuff about Arabs. Basically, what he said is, I'll paraphrase, but he said, " All the women I know who have dated Arab men, say they have a problem with women. They put them on a pedestal then when it goes bad they flip out."

Just many comments such as this, always generalizing Arabs. Mahers casual racism against them, has always been there. Its in his documentary too. I don't see how anyone who has been paying attention could miss this, but whatever.
 

YourMaster

Member
This is flat out full on nonsense. It's a Faith There's only two possibilities

1. Islam is the one true Faith in which case what is 'true islam' and what isn't lies with God.

2. Islam isn't the one true Faith in which case Islam is whatever any individual Muslim THINKS IT IS.

In neither of these two possibilies does Sam Harris get to tell me, or a billion plus other people, what my fucking beliefs are and then condemn me for them.

He cannot tell you what you believe. Neither can Tolkien tell me what I thought about LotR.

Your two possibilities are nonsense though. I can be a hippie and not know much about hippie culture and the development thereof.
I can be a 10 year old Muslim, just because my parent are, follow some of the daily practices and identify as a Muslim. I can also work in a university without being a Muslim and studied the history about Islam, what people in the group generally believe, how they live, the statistics, the works.
There are many things many Muslims do not know about their own fate. A good example is many do not realize the koran has been rewritten twice when written Arabic changed and it still includes many translation errors today. Some would call it blasphemy, yet the Koran is older then modern day Arabic writing.

Edit: But to the point: He cannot tell you what to believe, but he can tell you what true Islam is. If you believe something else, that is fine.
Just like somebody can tell me I'm not a real goth if I'm all cheerful and colorful, even though I might identify as one and my parents were goth.
 

Mesousa

Banned
this from 2012



lol no

Nope, it's part of being a member of the EU. I live 10 minutes from the french boarder. As a Italian I could literally jump between France and Germany for days without anyone noticing or caring.

While I'm not thrilled about any boost in popularity for far right parties, I would say the worst part is at least twelve people being murdered in cold blood for speaking their minds.



No, only when leaving the Schengen area or when boarding a plane.

WTF?
This seems like this would be a huge security risk.
 
Nope, just saying that there was a lot of generalizing on the show towards Islam and Muslims. Which is verified by their comments generalizing islam and muslim. Afleck calling them out, (Mar has a history with anti-arab/anti muslim bullshit as well, least we all forget?). This wasn't some innocent show where there was nothing to be found in the idea they were generalizing. Statistics don't back up "Islam being the motherload of bad ideas." Nor does comparing it to a mafia.

First of all, he's a comedian, and a pretty rabid atheist, so he's going to be pretty hostile toward all religions anyway- he goes after Christians alot too (he made an entire movie mocking Christianity). It's true he attacks Muslims pretty often and makes jokes at their expense, but that's because they're in the news these days, and he runs a show based on what's in the news. By all accounts (and Bill Maher seems to know alot of people), Bill Maher is not a racist or a bigot. Reza Aslan (who disagrees with Maher) regards Bill as a friend, as do alot of the other Muslim guests he's had on the show. As an activist atheist, he despises the idea of religion in general. That is not the same as hating one religion or being bigoted toward Arabs of Muslims. Religion, until we can prove otherwise, is an idea. And there's nothing wrong with being against ideas.
 

nilbog21

Banned
Can we stop talking about Ben Affleck and Sam Harris? Ben Affleck is an actor and celebrity while Sam Harris is a philosopher, intellectual, and has devoted a large part of life to studying religion... We don't need to be debating the merits of their argument ffs
 
The responses to the Affleck/Harris debate are still full of exhaustingly poor reasoning and lack of basic comprehension, I see.

On topic: This is tragic and horrible. Someone losing their life over a cartoon, no matter how derisive or confrontational, is a complete affront to everything good and just.
 
Who defines what Islam is and what its ideas are?

Sorry, I havent been following the Affleck/Harris thing too closely, but:

you're not saying that one needs to read the Quran in Arabic, are you? That you need to go to scholars? That someone can't criticize Islam because they aren't themselves Muslim?

Why do we need one definition of Islam? We see generally how Muslims think, what they believe, and it's not difficult to engage in a discussion to see the faults of the religion, just like any other. It's not difficult to draw some conclusions about some components of Islam, good or bad.

Not trying to say that that's what you are saying, but I often have come to realize that with Islam specifically, it's often said that "oh you just don't understand because Islam requires a lot of studying and knowledge to properly critique"

I just want to make clear that this is not what is being argued

I don't think arguments that suggest Islam is truly violent are inherently wrong.

I don't view the arguments too different from arguments made against Christianity that paint the religion as deeply flawed and immoral.

But when it comes to Islam, I often see people saying that criticizers don't have the authority to speak against Islam, whether that's because they are white/American, or simply uneducated on "true Islam"

I'm not sure if Harris says something particularly different about Islam being "truly" and exclusively one way, but I'm hoping that what you aren't saying is that people who speak against Islam are themselves making invalid arguments.

You don't think that the Quran is perfect, do you? That the Qu'ran is the perfect book of authority and morality?
 
you guys are making me sick with all this talk about left vs right, it's getting retarded.

there are way more moderates and secular on the left and in the center who are opposed to religious fanaticism and opposed to extremism.
 

Grug

Member
Can we stop talking about Ben Affleck and Sam Harris? Ben Affleck is an actor and celebrity while Sam Harris is a philosopher, intellectual, and has devoted a large part of life to studying religion... We don't need to be debating the merits of their argument ffs

Fair enough. I only mentioned Affleck as a very brief aside in a post a few pages back. Had no idea it would become such a big talking point.
 
This is such an extremely unlikely scenario that I don't think anyone should seriously entertain it. In what European countries do you see a realistic possibility of a fascist party seizing power? Golden Dawn for instance declined significantly in support.

Germany and France for one. Greece is another. Serbia is another.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/18/europe-angry-nationalist-eu-elections

http://theweek.com/article/index/26...o-end-nationalism-it-gave-it-new-life-instead
 

Gustav

Banned
This is such an extremely unlikely scenario that I don't think anyone should seriously entertain it. In what European countries do you see a realistic possibility of a fascist party seizing power? Golden Dawn for instance declined significantly in support.

The closest is probably Hungary.
 
arguably it would because if a far right comes into power. then we might see state sponsored government led atrocities rather than small groups.
FN are a bunch of dumb, bigoted motherfuckers who will have no idea what they're doing and will be cause for embarrassment, but they're not going to start building concentration camps.
 

Yoritomo

Member
The religion of Islam is absolutely awesome, it's the best thing that happened to me in life and I am a better person since becoming muslim. According to this religion it is unlawful to kill innocent people.

You'd have to explain the individual tenets of your sect of Islam.

And if a son of yours is gay? Do you treat women as spiritual, emotional, and familial equals? Do women have an equal say in the teachings, direction and leadership of your sect?
 
I am glad of the Gaff community. It's kinda the only sane non racist, non bigoted place I can go to.

The fallout of this, the delight it will give the white power parties of Europe is what really worries me.
 

Man

Member
You know, I'm actually offended by this one, which is close to a first for Onion, and then I realized that alone probably makes a point in an extremely obtuse meta way.

:|
Just for curiosity: If you're a religious person, which of the depicted religions do you follow?
 

thelatestmodel

Junior, please.
And so when Affleck called him out on that in the first section of it what exactly do you think he's saying?

Sam says he's very well educated on Islam
Sam says Islam is a motherload of bad ideas
Sam says Muslims who don't support ISIS aren't serious about their faith.

How the hell, as a Muslim who IS serious about his faith, am I supposed to take that?

Says he's "well educated" - check

Says "motherlode of bad ideas" - check

Says "Muslims who don't support ISIS aren't serious about their faith" - nope, he doesn't say that. Just re-watched the video. He is actually careful to point out that there are tens, hundreds of millions of normal, rational Muslims who don't support ISIS, and that these people should be "propped up". Your point is totally false.

Again, you have to be accepting of people criticizing your religion. That's the whole crux of the problem. Not everyone is going to agree with your way of life. Just do your thing, laugh it off, and be a good person.
 
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