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Terror attack kills 12 at Paris newspaper - 4 wounded, gunmen identified

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N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
B6w9v4ECEAAac5k.jpg:large
 
P

PjotrStroganov

Member
From a Belgian and Dutch satirical site. Please someone translate this. I'm horrible at it.
Tientallen ego’s gekwetst na satirische aanval op geloofsovertuiging
PARIJS – Bij een satirische aanval op een geloofsovertuiging zijn vandaag minstens tientallen ego’s gekwetst en meerdere honderden omstaanders zwaar op de tenen getrapt.

De slachtoffers, in tegenstelling tot de satirici niet tot de tanden gewapend met rationele argumenten, waren kansloos tegen de minutenlange grappensalvo’s en vlijmscherpe pointes die de sokkel onder hun overtuiging deden wankelen.

“Het was verschrikkelijk”, getuigt een slachtoffer. “Ze stormden binnen, met een brede grijns op hun gezicht, en ratelden er minutenlang op los. Vijf minuten langer, en ik was mijn geloof in universeel geldende en onveranderlijke gedragsregels misschien voorgoed verloren.”

Satirische aanvallen eisen wel vaker slachtoffers. Niet zelden komt ook de dader om.

De fundamentalistische wereld reageert verslagen op de satirische aanval. “Humor moet dienen om stereotypische, verwijfde homo’s of domme blondjes voor aap te zetten. Niet om ons middeleeuwse gedachtegoed en onze vaak barbaarse gebruiken te ridiculiseren!”, aldus een anonieme extremist.

“Dit was een accident waiting to happen“, reageert een andere. “Die satirici, met hun dogmatische, onwrikbare geloof in het feit dat dogma’s relatief zijn, laten geen kans onbenut om ons te bespotten.”

Maar ook satirici zijn verbolgen over de aanslag. “Weerloze fundamentalisten aanvallen is al te makkelijk”, stelt Jonas Z. Aepenbroot van De Rechtzetting. “Deze laffe daad stelt satire wereldwijd in een slecht daglicht.”

Ook De Raaskalderij veroordeelt de aanval scherp. “Zo’n daad is alleen maar koren op de molen voor de radicalen. Voor je ‘t weet zullen er weer een paar onnozelaars roepen dat vrijheid van meningsuiting toch niet absoluut is, dat de persvrijheid aan banden moet worden gelegd en dat je onschuldige extremistische gelovigen niet voor het hoofd mag stoten. Daar zal onze redactie zich alvast steeds tegen blijven verzetten.”



Geen doden bij satirische aanval

Bij een satirische aanval van het Franse weekblad Charlie Hebdo zijn geen doden of gewonden gevallen. Het incident brengt het totaal aantal slachtoffers van satirische aanvallen sinds het begin van de jaartelling op nul.
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D

Doc Holliday

SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Azih said:
Not when Sam Harris basically said he knows what true Islam is (EVIL INSANE) and any Muslim that doesn't support ISIS isn't a true Muslim. Full on logical fallacies and bigoted generalizations that I keep pointing out that Sam Harris fans just seem to ignore every time.
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Quote?
 
K

King Tubby

Member
Doc Holliday said:
Also saying Islam is dumb is not bigotry, the same way saying Christianity is inherently bad is not bigotry.

Criticizing shitty ideas is not the same as criticizing people. This distinction is important and the people who committed these crimes are probably confused about this as well.
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Doc Holliday said:
Again, there is nothing wrong with making statements about Islam and it's ideas. There is something wrong about making generalized about Muslim people that are not true. Do you not see the difference? Affleck is saying that Bill and Sam harris made general statements against Muslim people, whuch imo they did not,
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I agree. If you believe that people everywhere are equally capable and equally good, yet acknowledge that certain groups of people who share similar culture or ideas tend to engage in terrible actions as a result of those things, it is not bigotry to criticize the culture or the ideas. Saying that Islam or Christianity has severe problems or is inherently bad is not the same as saying that about Muslims or Christians themselves.

Azih said:
Not when Sam Harris basically said he knows what true Islam is (EVIL INSANE) and any Muslim that doesn't support ISIS isn't a true Muslim. Full on logical fallacies and bigoted generalizations that I keep pointing out that Sam Harris fans just seem to ignore every time.
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I won't speak for Islam but this is how I feel about Christianity.
 
L

Lan Dong Mik

And why would I want them?
It severely bums me out that these terrorists are most likely going to get away with it too. They are long gone by now.
 
G

GreenRobot

Banned
Doc Holliday said:
Hey man I can see why you're angry. Shit, i get crap just because I look middle eastern. However, Maher and Sam harris were arguing with facts, at least with some pretty accurate polls.
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Actually no, a lot of their facts are incorrect. Some are correct, though, that is true. But one can use all sorts of facts to come to conclusions about black people, Jewish people, or African people. But again, we consider this bigotry. And again, facts on their own mean nothing, they need context.

The point is, when you have major religious violence, other groups don't get maligned. See, Indian violence against Muslims in Guhraat in the 90s. Between 10,000 - 20,000 killed in a week, hundreds of thousands of Muslim women raped, all in a short span. But we do not use this, or what goes on in Kashmir to generalize Hindus.

I have no problem saying Islam has a blasphemy problem, like other religions, but it does seem to worse in Islam certainly, yet Harris and Maher are just bigots, who should not be taken seriously.

Maher in particular has said many things that are not facts, but just bigoted notions. He has said this for many many years. And then he came across Harris.
 
Z

Ziltoidia 9

Member
Azih said:
I'm angry at a lot of people. It's the state of the world. Should I just shut up and not respond to a poster that for some reason has the impression that Maher and Harris were not in fact painting muslims with a broad brush?
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Never shut up, speak all you need to and don't let people oppress you.





On a side note, this is what started the whole Maher thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDFrNQAjDYA

Most of the coverage is just the stuff with Afleck and Harris.
 
M

Maninthemirror

Banned
Yoritomo said:
The religion of Islam is absolute shit.

It is the mediating force of the goodness in the practitioners hearts and souls that gives it any value whatsoever.

Islam makes you worse than you you would have been as a person, community, or society, than you would have been without Islam.

I'd say this about any high cost religion that shuns or kills when someone apostatizes.
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I feel so much better as a Muslim that I don't think like you lol
 
G

GameGuru59

Banned
commedieu said:
Why are we even arguing over this? They made generalized statements. Afleck called them out. People wanted to pretend they were just talking about statistics, and that is where afleck was confused, o r something making him a douchebag. None of that happened. It wasn't said in a vacuum, there was an entire sentiment that kept recurring during the show to make generalized statements towards islam. I said he was upset at the generalizing, nothing afleck said or did on the show made him an asshole for calling out mar and harris for gross blanket statements they were making.
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So what? We can't talk about the religion of Islam generally? This is what I HATE about the current liberal paradigm. They even presented statistics and facts about the matter, and yet people still got their knickers in a bunch. In fact, the ONLY people presenting anecdotal evidence (which I think are still relevant, but it doesn't nullify statistics) were Ben Alleck and his compatriot. How about we have some introspection about one of the largest religions on the face of the earth? Is that not okay? Is there something inherently racist about that or something? It's okay to generalize when your generalization is coming from some sort of space that is reasonably substantiated. This liberal desire for there to be no generalizations ever is extremely peculiar and reeks of a sheltered academic theory that is disconnected from the real world. There would be no social science without generalizations. This whole line of argument is ludicrous to me.
 
YourMaster

YourMaster

Member
Azih said:
So Sam knows what the officially codified doctrine of Islam is and that additionally it is the mother lode of bad ideas and you don't think that paints all Muslims who think they're real believing Muslims with one giant stroke?

Especially when he goes on to say:

[Sam Harris:]
Let me just give you what you want. There are hundreds of millions of Muslims who are nominal Muslims who don’t take the faith seriously, who don’t want to kill apostates, who are horrified by ISIS and we need to defend these people, prop them up and let them reform their faith.
So he's confirming this by going Reverse True Scotsman. Any Muslim who doesn't support ISIS IS NOT A TRUE MUSLIM and only a NOMINAL ONE THAT DOESN'T TAKE THE FAITH SERIOUSLY because of course everyone knows TRUE MUSLIMS are fucking insane.

Well I think of myself as a true Muslim and Sam Harris doesn't get to define what my faith is as he does and as everyone does who finds out I'm Muslim and starts making judgement calls about my mental state and what I do or do not believe before I've even had a chance to say anything or expects me to apologize for what these fucking attackers did in Paris as if I'm somehow responsible for it.

I condemned those bastards earlier in the thread because I hate their guts and everything they stand for but I shouldn't be in a situation where I'm EXPECTED to do so or else I'm somehow complicit in what they did.
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People who aren't Muslim could very well be capable to know as much or more about Islam then people who do call themselves Muslim. You know, if they study the subject.

In this case he is correct, Islam is full of bad ideas. Luckily many of the people who see themselves as Muslims do not follow true Islam and as such could oppose an attack like this.
Those people who reject armed attacks against the west - the faux Muslims if you will - are in no way complicit in the attack but if they call themselves the same way it is no surprise others cannot easily distinguish them.

There are probable enough of the people who partly follow Islam who are not evil but can respect a woman who expresses her sexuality, are open to people who are homosexual, think it is natural and ok for people to leave a religion and reject violence to people with other believes. Those people are probably best served by inventing a religion of their own with a new name, instead of hijacking Islam.
 
ConanTheKing

ConanTheKing

Member
Brazil said:
It's scary that a dictionary definition could be trying to take the meaning out of a word, instead of the opposite. That doesn't seem to be the case here, though. That definition doesn't say what you think it says.

Philosophy is about wisdom, knowledge. Philosophy straight up condemns the dogma-based structure of any religion. Read up.
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I'm not trying to argue but you posted a Wikipedia link. There's a Wikipedia link that also says religion is a philosophy

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_philosophy

Is Plato writing about Socrates and his friends talking about Greek dieties and how they should live all that different from Judaism, Islam etc? Religions also have wisdom but that's where it's difficult because words like wisdom are a little too broad.
 
D

Doc Holliday

SPOILER: Columbus finds America
GreenRobot said:
Actually no, a lot of their facts are incorrect. Some are correct, though, that is true. But one can use all sorts of facts to come to conclusions about black people, Jewish people, or African people. But again, we consider this bigotry. And again, facts on their own mean nothing, they need context.

The point is, when you have major religious violence, other groups don't get maligned. See, Indian violence against Muslims in Guhraat in the 90s. Between 10,000 - 20,000 killed in a week, hundreds of thousands of Muslim women raped, all in a short span. But we do not use this, or what goes on in Kashmir to generalize Hindus.

I have no problem saying Islam has a blasphemy problem, like other religions, but it does seem to worse in Islam certainly, yet Harris and Maher are just bigots, who should not be taken seriously.

Maher in particular has said many things that are not facts, but just bigoted notions. He has said this for many many years. And then he came across Harris.
Click to expand...

I have problem when people get called Bigots without any sort of proof, but whatever.
 
M

MikeyB

Member
ConanTheKing said:
Heck even Ayn Rand agreed that it is a form of philosophy and so does the Oxford Dictionary:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/philosophy?searchDictCode=all
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For future reference, Ayn Rand is a terrible authority to quote from when it comes to philosophy. Western or analytic philosophy is defined by it's structured arguments, where you proceed from premises to conclusions. Ayn Rand made a lot of assertions and was light on argument and often self-contradictory. She's generally not recognized by philosophers.

Whether Christianity is philosophy is irrelevant to whether it should be dismissed. Heck, if you're serious about epistemology, you're going to casually dismiss religion outright because of its use of faith and authority to justify beliefs.
 
F

fierrotlepou

Member
This has really bothered me. What a buch of fucking psychopaths. Scum of the earth. There's no punishment severe enough for these savages. I really feel for the families involved and I hope they catch those insects. They fuckin' slaughtered journalists and cartoonists, a police officer doing his job and parents/husbands of wives. No religion or holy book is worth doing this for. If your goal in life is to kill others that think differently, you're not even worth the air you breathe. The fact that you're even allowed birth is unjustifiable. Scum. Fucking scum.
 
A

Azih

Member
YourMaster said:
People who aren't Muslim could very well be capable to know as much or more about Islam then people who do call themselves Muslim. You know, if they study the subject.
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This is flat out full on nonsense. It's a Faith There's only two possibilities

1. Islam is the one true Faith in which case what is 'true islam' and what isn't lies with God.

2. Islam isn't the one true Faith in which case Islam is whatever any individual Muslim THINKS IT IS.

In neither of these two possibilies does Sam Harris get to tell me, or a billion plus other people, what my fucking beliefs are and then condemn me for them.
 
K

kamorra

Fuck Cancer
Mesousa said:
Surely some form of ID has to be shown boarding buses or trains leaving the nation right?
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Nope, it's part of being a member of the EU. I live 10 minutes from the french boarder. As a Italian I could literally jump between France and Germany for days without anyone noticing or caring.
 
K

Kabouter

Member
GreenRobot said:
The worst part is, this is definitely going to give the Neo Nazi parties of Europe ammo.
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While I'm not thrilled about any boost in popularity for far right parties, I would say the worst part is at least twelve people being murdered in cold blood for speaking their minds.

Mesousa said:
Surely some form of ID has to be shown boarding buses or trains leaving the nation right?
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No, only when leaving the Schengen area or when boarding a plane.
 
C

CrunchyB

Member
dakun said:
so after this news i went ahead and posted the comics on my facebook account where part of my family that lives in Turkey are friends with me.
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Good job, that couldn't have been easy.

Ikael said:
This is a debate where cooler heads ought to prevail, but seriously, the problem is not the tiny fraction of murderers, nor their idiotic sympatizers (which are rightfully shunned by the wider muslim community), but more broadly, the ones that "understands the sentiment".

Violent or not, you cannot seriously pretend to believe that introducing a popullation that it is ok with criminalizing blasmphemy and apostasy inside a modern society will not create any kind of problems. Of course it will. I don't know what is the solution to this situation, but our left wing "head in the sand" strategy isn't working, and I am pretty damn sure that voting for far-right wing parties aren't the solution either.
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Yeah, great point. This is why it's essential for Muslims to openly condemn this action. It makes it impossible for right-wing parties to hijack the discussion and should stop people from radicalizing. A lukewarm reaction could be interpreted as a silent approval, even though this may not be the intention.
 
Audioboxer

Audioboxer

Member
The next world war will be over religion/religious extremism, and sadly I'll probably be alive to witness it. Sometimes I wish I wasn't human.

Every religion thinks they're right, and everyone else is wrong. Hopefully science can just keep dropping more and more hard evidence about our planet, Universe and us, and at a faster rate than the adoption of extremism.

Horrible reading about this, horrible.
 
T

Trouble

Banned
MikeyB said:
For future reference, Ayn Rand is a terrible authority to quote from when it comes to philosophy.
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or economics, or political theory, or morality... I could go on all day. Terrible people with terrible ideas and ideals are generally not good authorities on anything.
 
T

thelatestmodel

Junior, please.
Azih said:
Not when Sam Harris basically said he knows what true Islam is (EVIL INSANE) and any Muslim that doesn't support ISIS isn't a true Muslim. Full on logical fallacies and bigoted generalizations that I keep pointing out that Sam Harris fans just seem to ignore every time.
Click to expand...

No he doesn't. He doesn't say any of that. He is well-educated on the subject, but doesn't claim to "know what true Islam is". He is actually careful to mention that any discussion of Islam, or religion in general, quickly gets tainted by people calling each other bigots (which is true).

He does not say that any Muslim that doesn't support ISIS is not a true Muslim. He says it's important to criticize bad ideas (also true) and that he thinks many of the things in Islam are bad ideas (something he is perfectly entitled to say).

Again, Sam Harris is an incredibly level-headed and intelligent philosopher. Some of his ideas are upsetting for some people, but that doesn't stop them being both true and important.
 
M

Madness

Member
GreenRobot said:
The worst part is, this is definitely going to give the Neo Nazi parties of Europe ammo.
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Yep. You can just see it being used to the advantage of ultranationalists in Europe and France now especially since it has the largest Muslim population. Just sad, 12 people lost their lives in a free society for being affiliated with a satirical cartoon that a bunch of terrorist/extremists didn't appreciate.
Hopefully these cowards are caught soon. The US will definitely be helping with this.
 
C

Canis lupus

Member
Yoritomo said:
The religion of Islam is absolute shit.

It is the mediating force of the goodness in the practitioners hearts and souls that gives it any value whatsoever.

Islam makes you worse than you you would have been as a person, community, or society, than you would have been without Islam.

I'd say this about any high cost religion that shuns or kills when someone apostatizes.
Click to expand...

The religion of Islam is absolutely awesome, it's the best thing that happened to me in life and I am a better person since becoming muslim. According to this religion it is unlawful to kill innocent people.
 
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