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Terrorist attack at Charlie Hebdo magazine. 12 dead. 11 wounded.
- Thread starter bishoptl
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Boom Boom Pow
Banned
is it a really a few though? look at how many muslim majority countries there are. even now, semi progressive muslim asia seem to be going backward on its human rights thing. especially indonesia.
I like how you quote "Islamic teachings" that are actually falsely attributed to the Ayatollah Khomeini. So not only are they not "Islamic teachings," they're not even accurate quotations of the guy they were made up to mock. Do you fact check at all? I feel like there should be rules against posting this kind of hate and passing it off as factual in an effort to discriminate against a religion.
yes i fact check buddy. all of what i wrote is 100% correct, if you say its false then your ignorant. i know for a fact that all of those are correct. Ayatollah Khomeini is a trash human being
Conor_Fool
Banned
This woman on CNN... my god.
I'm sure it's mind-numbing drivel that only certain baby boomers would love. Turn it off.
There's a lot of money to be made in spreading anti-muslim propaganda. A ton of sites have been dedicated to miseducate people on what Islam is about. This includes doing things like purposely using inaccurate translations and terribly sourced Hadiths to show how "bad" Muslims are.
Foundations paid $42 million to spread anti-Muslim propaganda
I don't have CNN but is it Ayaan Hirsi Ali? She was supposed to be on tonight and is pretty smart from what I hear, assuming that "my god" is meant to be negative.
Because the Hadiths are the traditions of the Prophet who's kind of a big deal in Islam. Muslims see him as an "ideal" person and the Hadiths are considered supplementary to the actual Koran. You can't really have one without the other.
@Other People:
I feel like some of the people in this thread are using Rush Limbaugh as a source on their Islamic studies. Honestly, if someone even just took a passing interest in reading a book on this subject, such as the one I linked to earlier, it would answer a lot of their questions and disabuse them of the raging ignorance evidenced here.
m_shortpants
Member
Do you know who Khomeini is? Do you know which sect he hails from? Are you aware of the history behind the origins of that sect? Do you know the demographic make up of Muslims worldwide?
If you even have to think twice about those questions you have no idea what you're talking about. Attributing the supposed works of Khomeini (I haven't even bothered to check if they're legitimate or not) to the entirety of Islam is a tremendous show of ignorance. As for the rest of your quotes, context has been provided multiple times in this forum previously. Further, if you actually read two verses before and after the ones you copy and pasted you may gain some insight into the context surrounding them.
Explain moderate Jews and Christians then.
I don't see why not. The word of god is the word of god. Mohammed was a prophet. He's not god. He is a messenger. Why is his behaviour relevant? Surely only god's words are relevant.
You clearly do not fact check because numerous of those quotes sprinkled all over anti-Muslim propaganda websites and have been debunked countless times. And so what if the Ayatollah is a trash human being? Even if those quotes were accurately attributed to him, which it's hilarious that you seem to think that they are, they wouldn't constitute "Islamic teachings." Islamic teachings = the Koran and the prophetic traditions.
Recommend you get off google and go to a library next time you want to research Islam.
DXB-KNIGHT
Member
Terrorist are ruining everyone's fun? I guess.
i copied and pasted this from a previous thread.. doesn't matter, how can you deny those saying they a in the koran and are written so clearly. your doing what every muslim does and thats being ignorant
Conor_Fool
Banned
It was some professor, definitely don't think that was her name. Mubin Shaikh seemed pretty well-spoken though.
And for anyone wondering why I was watching CNN, my mom was watching and I'm in the same room.
Hopefully this isn't too soon and people will know that this is about not making the wrong take-away from this horrible event , but a necessary lesson in how free speech is incredibly complex: http://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/20...-speech-does-not-mean-freedom-from-criticism/
Oh for heavens sakes, why do Christians study Jesus' sermons or ask "What would Jesus do"? Mohammed is their prophet, they believe he was chosen by God, he's an important person.
I really shouldn't even be in here explaining this to anyone since:
A) not muslim
B) white guy from Wisconsin
But the ignorance in this thread is appalling.
And a powerful interview with a Muslim about the whole apology demand: http://religiondispatches.org/interview-with-a-muslim/
I'm actually legitimately impressed by how thoroughly some people have disregarded and surpassed the warning in the original post.
how is the concept of free speech incredibly complex? by its very definition, free speech is about protecting the speech we disagree most with.
MisterAnderson
Member
The account suicide that just took place must have been intentional. It simply must have...
...right?
...right?
People lose their shit and see red when tragedy takes place. Consequently, rash measures and decisions are enforced. We've seen it numerous times, e.g. 9/11. It's pretty horrible to witness, as if you're watching a train wreck occurring without anyone paying heed to the warnings and experiences.
They live in secular societies. Again, see Uganda (85% Christian) where being "aggressively gay" is punishable by death. And finidng fundamentalist Christians in the U.S. is not difficult; some 46% of Americans think the world is 6000 years old and they're generally not in favor of marriage equality. It should not come to a surprise that even less secular societies would hold even more extreme views.
And sane, knowlegeable Christians have come to understand that the Bible was not written by whoever's name the books are. We know that the apostles didn't write the gospels and we've somehow accepted that Jesus wiped out the old testament and those two thinks makes it infinitely easier to fit your own beliefs where the intolerant nonsense used to be. Muslims, having to adhere to the idea that the Qur'an is the literal word of God given to Muhammad don't have that same wiggle room imo.
There are millions of Jews that don't actually believe in God. That also makes it easier to be a "moderate".
DXB-KNIGHT
Member
As a Muslim I can say that those Cartoons offends me but I can state that freely without talking the violence route since this is completely inhuman.
If anyone read the Islamic History and how the Prophet dealt with people who made fun of him will understand that such acts were against his teachings.
Seeing how a Muslim lost his life in this tragedy shows that those terrorists are no more that just criminals. If there is a time to support moderate Islam this is the right time otherwise a bloody chaos might emerge that will affect everyone.
Only moderate Muslims are the one able to stop those extremist instead of someone who are considered as an outsider. The Saudi and UAE are currently fighting theoretically and physically those extremist warned about ISIS danger is going to affect the world.
If anyone read the Islamic History and how the Prophet dealt with people who made fun of him will understand that such acts were against his teachings.
Seeing how a Muslim lost his life in this tragedy shows that those terrorists are no more that just criminals. If there is a time to support moderate Islam this is the right time otherwise a bloody chaos might emerge that will affect everyone.
Only moderate Muslims are the one able to stop those extremist instead of someone who are considered as an outsider. The Saudi and UAE are currently fighting theoretically and physically those extremist warned about ISIS danger is going to affect the world.
ramuh
Member
That is a shame. Because discourse is what is needed in situations such as these. We have to understand this extremist enemy to find a way to counteract and educate. I've always took the approach to look at the economics of it all. I'm wondering how these killers were raised and what did they do or not do with their lives. Etc.
I understand that the point could stand in some ways, but in this particular case, the picture was made by chilean cartoonists (not white) from a bi-monthly political satire newslettet called "The clinic" (not the status quo) http://www.theclinic.cl/. So, not even close.
Power relationships, punching down, freedom of speech does not mean freedom of criticism, etc. Just because this horrible thing has happened does not mean everyone has to condone or agree with their racist cartoons, which the article addresses. It might be too soon to address this aspect in the wake of the tragedy, but it's important that we don't rush to the wrong conclusions about freedom of speech.
But like I said, maybe this point is too soon so disregard if tempers are flared.
Boom Boom Pow
Banned
to be honest, I don't think you can combat extremism. it will exists for as long as organized religion exists. look at extremist buddhist, christians, hindus, jews, muslims.
education and giving them money might help stop a few, but for the others, i really don't think you can.
Criticism in this case came in the form of the murder of innocent people.
Fuck that noise.
You sound like you're pussyfooting around victim blaming at this point which is fucking disgusting.
Fenderputty
Banned
Religion is just another form of tribalism. It's not special. Take away my religion and I truly believe these problems would still exist and manifest in other ways.
What freedom of criticism? No one is saying that you have to agree with all of the magazine's cartoons, but everybody that supports free speech should agree with their ability to print the cartoons without the fear of violence.
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
I love how they say the the cartoon responses are by "hack cartoonists". Truly a great piece there. Profound.
No no no, not at all. I was just talking about the concept of freedom of speech in case anyone was making the wrong take-away from these events. It's important to both say that this is a horrible tragic thing and that you don't necessarily have to support the cartoons.
ramuh
Member
Just assume there is always going to be genetic anomalies (in humans) and fringes to every society. Yes I can agree that will always be the case. We aren't perfect by any means. Not society or peoples are. But I still believe it's both right and moral to at least try. Those that are extremist and want to attack our freedoms should be dealt with in the harshest legal manner.
Of course I totally agree
Boom Boom Pow
Banned
why haven't they manifested in non-religious countries?
,Laos, Cambodia, Korea/Japan/China(if you don't count the muslim attacks recently), most of Europe, secular African countries, etc etc.
that's teh thing. you can only deal with them after they've done something to show their extremism. you can't deal with them prior, or else you'll be prosecuting them for a crime they have not yet commit.
which is why i said you cannot fight religious extremism.
The problem is that the use of religion as justification comes with a certain sacredness that makes it harder to criticize.
If you criticize Israel's government for committing crimes against humanity and genocide, you're labeled an anti-semite. If you criticize these animals for what they did, people like Lime tell you that you're a racist, anti-immigration, white supremacist, etc.
A Nazi can't say "God told me it was ok", he can only say "Hitler told me it was ok". That doesn't carry the same weight. A North Korean prison guard can only say "Kim told me it was ok".
eh. I think the article is attacking a straw man. They're free to call recently slain people racist assholes, I personally don't even think that's tasteless. But I think jumping to the conclusion that this outpouring of support for the magazine is condoning their messages and cartoons is the complete opposite and wrong one to draw. supporting the magazine under the name of "freedom of speech" isn't saying they agree with the message, it's saying everyone should always have access to the neutral space that is free expression—particularly if you disagree with them. and likewise, freedom of speech also means that Muslims can access that space and provide their own rhetoric in retort.
freedom of speech is, by definition, the very mechanism by which criticism can occur. as an argument, it's nonsensical.
m_shortpants
Member
More Islamic leaders condemning this attack:
http://www.onislam.net/english/shar...s-attack-charlie-hebdo-terrorist-cartoon.html
http://www.onislam.net/english/shar...s-attack-charlie-hebdo-terrorist-cartoon.html
CapHarlock
Neo Member
Not a very good source of information
victreeb3l
Member
I think Don Lemon asked The Muslim Guy about half an hour ago if he supports ISIS or not. Dude was like "um, excuse me?" lol
I don't understand why anyone needs to come out with a statement and condemn this stuff, of course they have disapproval for this. I mean, I understand it, it just bothers me.
I see your point, thanks. I've just experienced today by other people here in Europe that if you're not supporting and agreeing with the cartoons, you're against freedom of speech. But it's super complex and it's really sensitive at right now so it was probably dumb of me to even touch that conversation, especially when it's a straw man to some.
Fenderputty
Banned
You're not looking hard enough or far back enough. What about the secular communist movements in China and Russia of the past?
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