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[m_shortpants]

I don't understand why anyone needs to come out with a statement and condemn this stuff, of course they have disapproval for this. I mean, I understand it, it just bothers me.

And a powerful interview with a Muslim about the whole apology demand: http://religiondispatches.org/interview-with-a-muslim/

See above. It's a catch-22.

 

[FiggyCal]

Not a very good source of information

Rawstory or Center for American Progress?

Because if it's the former, there are other news sources that wrote about the report.

Edit: I just realize the report they linked is broken. This is the report: http://cdn.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/issues/2011/08/pdf/islamophobia.pdf

And this is a summary from Thinkprogress

 

[victreeb3l]

I don't understand why anyone needs to come out with a statement and condemn this stuff, of course they have disapproval for this. I mean, I understand it, it just bothers me.

Whats more problematic is the media will still perpetrate the same tired "Moderates need to speak up / are quiet" BS regardless. Its like we have to buy Superbowl ad timeslots and put up billboards before some people are satisfied.

 

[Aquamarine]

i'm worried about the muslim population in france.

tensions are already high....this incident may trigger all sorts of anti-muslim sentiment and hostility across the country.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Hopefully this isn't too soon and people will know that this is about not making the wrong take-away from this horrible event , but a necessary lesson in how free speech is incredibly complex: http://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/20...-speech-does-not-mean-freedom-from-criticism/

That is a really terrible article.

 

[Lime]

i'm worried about the muslim population in france.

tensions are already high....this incident may trigger all sorts of anti-muslim sentiment and hostility across the country.

I'm seriously getting associations with Kristallnacht November Pogroms because of the reactions

 

[ramuh]

that's teh thing. you can only deal with them after they've done something to show their extremism. you can't deal with them prior, or else you'll be prosecuting them for a crime they have not yet commit.

which is why i said you cannot fight religious extremism.

If there is a trend that Muslim scholar(s) and religious leaders are preaching hate etc. you COULD shut them down but then that defeats the whole tenets of free expression. The ability the criticize. I don't think anyone would disagree that there is something fundamental wrong with how there have been so many extremists (Islam) attacks recently (Canada, Australia, France) but it is really hard to pinpoint and defeat that extremism before it rears it's head without infringing on their right to carry the hateful speech. I also look at the economics of these extremist etc.

I agree with you. It's just reacting at this point. But at what point do things start domino-ing down to reactionary behavior to this kind of religious extremism?

 

[Anjelus_]

i'm worried about the muslim population in france.

tensions are already high....this incident may trigger all sorts of anti-muslim sentiment and hostility across the country.

I don't think you need to worry. There's radicals in every country, but on the whole the French will know to keep things into perspective. It's like the "anti-Islam" marches in Germany; there've been counter-protests of equal or greater size and people are on the whole quite level-headed.

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

I don't understand why anyone needs to come out with a statement and condemn this stuff, of course they have disapproval for this. I mean, I understand it, it just bothers me.

It's a form of saying what happened is against Islamic beliefs are done by criminals. If they remained quiet it might means either they don't care or they are with what happened.

 

[Lime]

I don't understand why anyone needs to come out with a statement and condemn this stuff, of course they have disapproval for this. I mean, I understand it, it just bothers me.

 

[ramuh]

It's a form of saying what happened is against Islamic beliefs are done by criminals. If they remained quiet it might means either they don't care or they are with what happened.

As i would expect Christian leaders to start condemning if there was a rash of religious extremist that start shooting up Muslims like taking over a mosque and start executing people. It is just how it is.

 

[markot]

Hopefully this isn't too soon and people will know that this is about not making the wrong take-away from this horrible event , but a necessary lesson in how free speech is incredibly complex: http://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/20...-speech-does-not-mean-freedom-from-criticism/

What a complete and utter pile of shit.

 

[sonicmj1]

why haven't they manifested in non-religious countries?

,Laos, Cambodia, Korea/Japan/China(if you don't count the muslim attacks recently), most of Europe, secular African countries, etc etc.

The Khmer Rouge in Cambodia killed 25% of their nation's population in order to purge "intellectuals" who might have disagreed with the government's policies. The Great Leap Forward in China led to a famine that killed tens of millions, and the Cultural Revolution led millions more to be abused, imprisoned, and tortured based on class and belief. Japan nearly wiped out the Ainu people, and oppressed millions during their imperial era in Korea, China, and elsewhere, including horrific massacres and human experimentation.

Ideology can cause people to do incredibly toxic things, and it doesn't require a spiritual deity to exist.

 

[ramuh]

The Khmer Rouge in Cambodia killed 25% of their nation's population in order to purge "intellectuals" who might have disagreed with the government's policies. The Great Leap Forward in China led to a famine that killed tens of millions, and the Cultural Revolution disenfranchised millions more based on class and belief. Japan nearly wiped out the Ainu people, and oppressed millions during their imperial era in Korea, China, and elsewhere, including horrific massacres and human experimentation.

Ideology can cause people to do incredibly toxic things, and it doesn't require a spiritual deity to exist.

Yup. In China doing the whole Mao era where they forced relocated people back to rural areas so they could achieve some ideological commune-communism idea.

 

[MHWilliams]

eh. I think the article is attacking a straw man. They're free to call recently slain people racist assholes, I personally don't even think that's tasteless. But I think jumping to the conclusion that this outpouring of support for the magazine is condoning their messages and cartoons is the complete opposite and wrong one to draw. supporting the magazine under the name of "freedom of speech" isn't saying they agree with the message, it's saying everyone should always have access to the neutral space that is free expression—particularly if you disagree with them. and likewise, freedom of speech also means that Muslims can access that space and provide their own rhetoric in retort.

freedom of speech is, by definition, the very mechanism by which criticism can occur. as an argument, it's nonsensical.

A point made by recently-killed Charlie Hebdo editor Stéphane Charbonnier in 2011 (one that people in this thread would do well to read):

“Extremists don’t need any excuses,” he said following the 2011 firebombing of his magazine. “We are only criticizing one particular form of extremist Islam, albeit in a peculiar and satirically exaggerated form. We are not responsible for the excesses that happen elsewhere, just because we practice our right to freedom of expression within the legal limits.”

“If they are not amused by our cartoons, they don’t need to buy our magazine. Of course they are allowed to demonstrate. The right to protest needs to be protected, so long as one abides by the law and refrains from violence.”

You can dislike the work they produce, while also acknowledging they did not deserve to die for it.

 

[FiggyCal]

I don't understand why anyone needs to come out with a statement and condemn this stuff, of course they have disapproval for this. I mean, I understand it, it just bothers me.

Because if you don't come out and condemn the terrorists, you're with them.

There's this religious thing that happens after every terrorist attack in the US, where if Obama doesn't immediately call it a terrorist attack and make a connection to Islam -- he's sympathetic to their cause. This rush to dehumanize and be the first to call what everyone already understands is a terrorist attack as such or call the terrorists "animals" is bizarre.

What does that accomplish really, other than perpetuate conservative propaganda? Nothing.

Muslim leaders have to condemn every attack because they get criticism if they don't. But at least in the U.S. media -- they get ignored when they do come out so it doesn't even matter.

Edited

 

[RustyNails]

why haven't they manifested in non-religious countries?

,Laos, Cambodia, Korea/Japan/China(if you don't count the muslim attacks recently), most of Europe, secular African countries, etc etc.

I'm pretty sure you already thought out a response in mentioning Laos and Cambodia, where someone will mention Pol Pot and you will respond with But ahh, Pol Pot was just an evil government tyrant, and was not being compelled by his faith.

The point is you can use anything to weild power over the masses.

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

As i would expect Christian leaders to start condemning if there was a rash of religious extremist that start shooting up Muslims like taking over a mosque and start executing people. It is just how it is.

The situation here is different, there is a cesspool of Muslim scholars, politicians and terrorist trying to conduct a form of teaching of Islam and make themselves the one and only source of authority for this religion for their own gain and anyone who are against them is a heretic. The Arabic spring were used by these groups to try to get on top and their agendas were exposed. Those circumstances along with power vacuum that was created in that region created ISIS and co.

Moderate Muslims are fighting both theoretically and literally those groups who were exposed based on many factors. That's why I'm saying it's the time to help moderate Islamic countries otherwise will end up in an even bigger mess.

 

[Kastrioti]

Question the Religion.

And defend Freedom of Speech and Expression.

This is what it comes down to.

"Our job is not to defend freedom of speech but without it we're dead. We can't live in a country without freedom of speech. I prefer to die than to live like a rat," Charbonnier told ABC News.

Stephan Charbonnier died for his right to mock politics, religion through cartoon drawings.

 

[Lime]

The Young Turks address the US right winged media rhetorics of these events: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bI-E-sbJEA

I'm pretty horrified by some of that Fox News stuff. Especially @ 9:45 and onwards

 

[ramuh]

The situation here is different, there is a cesspool of Muslim scholars, politicians and terrorist trying to conduct a form of teaching of Islam and make themselves the one and only source of authority for this religion for their own gain and anyone who are against them is a heretic. The Arabic spring were used by these groups to try to get on top and their agendas were exposed. Those circumstances along with power vacuum that was created in that region created ISIS and co.

Moderate Muslims are fighting both theoretically and literally those groups who were exposed based on many factors. That's why I'm saying it's the time to help moderate Islamic countries otherwise will end up in an even bigger mess.

I can see that. When you have areas/countries that do a lot in supporting these extremist views need to be vilified. And there are moderate Islam countries that do get overlooked by their Muslim brethren that use texts and edicts to expand their own personal goals. I think as to what would Muhammad think about the current state of Muslim countries/makeup. What by help what do you mean? Not just material/money. That has/is been tried before. Again, economics. Who controls the money.

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

I can see that. When you have areas/countries that do a lot in supporting these extremist views need to be vilified. And there are moderate Islam countries that do get overlooked by their Muslim brethren that use texts and edicts to expand their own personal goals. I think as to what would Muhammad think about the current state of Muslim countries/makeup. What by help what do you mean? Not just material/money. That has/is been tried before. Again, economics. Who controls the money.

By help I mean giving moderate Muslims the voice, work together to extract some of those organizations because believe it or not some of these organizations are hiding in Europe and NA using free speech and charity to support those ideologies. The UAE terrorist list that highlighted some organizations in the US and Europe seemed strange in the beginning but going further it seems that there is a sort of connection. Many of ISIS recruits from Saudi were encouraged by some Scholars to go and help Syrians despite the Saudi government rejection and now when those scholars were confronted by the result of their encouragement they backed off, so they are being questioned and detained based on their history and help in terrorism.

 

[Megalosaro]

why haven't they manifested in non-religious countries?

,Laos, Cambodia, Korea/Japan/China(if you don't count the muslim attacks recently), most of Europe, secular African countries, etc etc.

AUM Shinrikyo

 

[King Tubby]

I always felt part of the point of the cartoons was to show that all it took was a crude drawing with the implication of being Mohammed to drive some people into a murderous rage, and that this is utterly ridiculous.

USA Today should be ashamed.

 

[Gorger]

This was great and thought provoking. I have a lot of sympathy for the moderate Muslim who just want to live their lives in peace, but are caught in the middle from both sides based on their personal beliefs. I can't even imagine how they manage to deal with such stigma every day.

 

[Oersted]

I'm seriously getting associations with Kristallnacht because of the reactions

Please don't use that word. Call it Pogrom night or November Pogroms.

This was great and thought provoking. I have a lot of sympathy for the moderate Muslim who just want to live their lives in peace, but are caught in the middle from both sides based on their personal beliefs. I can't even imagine how they manage to deal with such stigma every day.

Was walking trough the streets with a friend. On a wall stand quite huge "Islam is murder". She asked me for a translation. Since she is a muslima, it killed our mood for quite a while.

 

[Lime]

Please don't use that word. Call it Pogrom night or November Pogroms.

You got it, thanks for the correction

 

[The Llama]

Please don't use that word. Call it Pogrom night or November Pogroms.

Just out of curiosity, why?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I'm seriously getting associations with Kristallnacht because of the reactions

Are you seriously suggesting that the French state might use this incident to strip the rights of the Islamic population, begin pogroms against them and actively encourage the population to join in?

 

[Joni]

As i would expect Christian leaders to start condemning if there was a rash of religious extremist that start shooting up Muslims like taking over a mosque and start executing people. It is just how it is.

They do condem that stuff. The Pope is always quick to respond to such violence. The problem with Islam is the lack of central leadership. The imam that condems the attacks has no more power than the imam that is collaborating and supporting with the terrorists.

 

[Lime]

Are you seriously suggesting that the French state might use this incident to strip the rights of the Islamic population, begin pogroms against them and actively encourage the population to join in?

No that right-winged fundamentalists will use this as an excuse to harm anyone or anything muslim. Peoples reactions where I live are incredibly hate-filled and bloodthirsty. And recently 3 mosques were attacked in Sweden, so this might be a terrible catalyst for some people.

 

[Aspiring]

The Young Turks address the US right winged media rhetorics of these events: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bI-E-sbJEA

I'm pretty horrified by some of that Fox News stuff. Especially @ 9:45 and onwards

Wow. Just wow. That last comment. I am honestly shocked. I had no idea how bad Fox news really was.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

Event in their small pathetic world...i still dont get the logic of attacking Non-Muslims for doing Un-islamic things.

urgh, the news today was fucking depressing.

 

[victreeb3l]

Are you seriously suggesting that the French state might use this incident to strip the rights of the Islamic population, begin pogroms against them and actively encourage the population to join in?

More like some people getting angry and taking it out violently against french Muslims.

I dont think thats likely to happen.

 

[Oersted]

Just out of curiosity, why?

Because it suggests that only glass has been broken. But in reality, people were hunted and murdered and deported into KZs, synagoges, with people in them, were burned to ground. The appropiate word for that is pogrom.

I see your point, but I disagree, because when people see that word, they don't think of it literally. But thats just getting way off topic.

Let me put it this, you might as well call this terrorist attack 'creative differences'. It was a pogrom, plain simple. But yeah, lets stop here. PM if you want.

 

[Arksy]

The Young Turks address the US right winged media rhetorics of these events: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bI-E-sbJEA

I'm pretty horrified by some of that Fox News stuff. Especially @ 9:45 and onwards

Oh my fucking god!

 

[Kastrioti]

Wow. Just wow. That last comment. I am honestly shocked. I had no idea how bad Fox news really was.

Oh my fucking god!

Why is so much emotion given to some garbage early morning talk show as opposed to the attacks themselves?

You're getting away from the point.

Cartoonists and innocents were killed, in the name of religion, because they drew pictures of Mohammed and you're focusing on FoxNews?

This has nothing to do with FoxNews, and it's garbage programming, no matter how much you try to change the subject.

 

[m_shortpants]

The Young Turks address the US right winged media rhetorics of these events: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bI-E-sbJEA

I'm pretty horrified by some of that Fox News stuff. Especially @ 9:45 and onwards

Holy shit. "We don't know their color [...] we don't know if they look like regular bad guys"

My goodness. The day after a NAACP office is bombed, and gets no media coverage.

 

[The Llama]

Because it suggests that only glass has been broken. But in reality, people were hunted and murdered and deported into KZs, synagoges, with people in them, were burned to ground. The appropiate word for that is pogrom.

I see your point, but I disagree, because when people see that word, they don't think of it literally. But thats just getting way off topic.

 

[Arksy]

Why is so much emotion given to some garbage early morning talk show as opposed to the attacks themselves?

You're getting away from the point.

Cartoonists and innocents were killed, in the name of religion, because they drew pictures of Mohammed and you're focusing on FoxNews?

This has nothing to do with FoxNews, and it's garbage programming, no matter how much you try to change the subject.

What? I, like most other people here are eagerly awaiting updates and hoping that no more life is lost. In the meantime, I think it is worth discussing the reactions and fallout worldwide that this event has borne. What would you have us do? Vacate the thread until an update occurs?

 

[Daemul]

Wow, and I thought the last thread regarding this topic couldn't get more hateful. You guys did it, congrats!

I wonder how many more chances Bish will give us before banning conversation on this outright.

 

[Lime]

Why is so much emotion given to some garbage early morning talk show as opposed to the attacks themselves?

You're getting away from the point.

Cartoonists and innocents were killed, in the name of religion, because they drew pictures of Mohammed and you're focusing on FoxNews?

This has nothing to do with FoxNews, and it's garbage programming, no matter how much you try to change the subject.

The Young Turks actually address your argument in the video. It's important how we address and talk about these events - otherwise people will get the wrong impression and e.g. think that this has something to do with all 1.3b Muslims. But the way that especially right-winged media (and left-winged at times) go about talking about these things divide people even further and promotes racism/xenophobia.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

The Young Turks address the US right winged media rhetorics of these events: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bI-E-sbJEA

I'm pretty horrified by some of that Fox News stuff. Especially @ 9:45 and onwards

Had to click out early on when that pundit said "no pun intended". No class.

 

[Kastrioti]

What? I, like most other people here are eagerly awaiting updates and hoping that no more life is lost. In the meantime, I think it is worth discussing the reactions and fallout worldwide that this event has borne. What would you have us do? Vacate the thread until an update occurs?

Updates will occur.

There is a fake/faux outrage by a right wing Foxnews clip or radio show for whatever reason.

It doesn't get more right wing than the dipshits who decided to murder people because they offended Mohammed and Islam.

Some reactions to some Foxnews clip are as emotional as they are to the actual attacks themselves.

Focus on the actions, reasoning of the attacks, the victims not a random Foxnews clip.

 

[Dead Man]

Updates will occur.

There is a fake/faux outrage by a right wing Foxnews clip or radio show for whatever reason.

It doesn't get more right wing than the dipshits who decided to murder people because they offended Mohammed and Islam.

Some reactions to some Foxnews clip are as emotional as they are to the actual attacks themselves.

Focus on the actions, reasoning of the attacks, the victims not a random Foxnews clip.

Or, people can talk about the media reaction to events, and you can ignore posts that hurt your head.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

Holy shit. "We don't know their color [...] we don't know if they look like regular bad guys"

My goodness. The day after a NAACP office is bombed, and gets no media coverage.

I barely watch any television news coverage these days but if this is true, why the fuck am I not surprised? We're in a 24/7 news cycle, and that gets nothing? The bomber is still on the loose for fucks sake.

 

[Casimir]

They live in secular societies.

So do Muslims. There are 1.5 billion of them.

Again, see Uganda (85% Christian) where being "aggressively gay" is punishable by death. And finidng fundamentalist Christians in the U.S. is not difficult; some 46% of Americans think the world is 6000 years old and they're generally not in favor of marriage equality. It should not come to a surprise that even less secular societies would hold even more extreme views.

And sane, knowlegeable Christians have come to understand that the Bible was not written by whoever's name the books are. We know that the apostles didn't write the gospels and we've somehow accepted that Jesus wiped out the old testament and those two thinks makes it infinitely easier to fit your own beliefs where the intolerant nonsense used to be. Muslims, having to adhere to the idea that the Qur'an is the literal word of God given to Muhammad don't have that same wiggle room imo.

There are millions of Jews that don't actually believe in God. That also makes it easier to be a "moderate".

It's not wise to engage in true scotsman fallacies like Kastrioti.

The Young Turks address the US right winged media rhetorics of these events: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bI-E-sbJEA

I'm pretty horrified by some of that Fox News stuff. Especially @ 9:45 and onwards

Fox is a show. Ailes has voiced his contempt of journalism as a institution publicly.

 

[Arksy]

Updates will occur.

There is a fake/faux outrage by a right wing Foxnews clip or radio show for whatever reason.

It doesn't get more right wing than the dipshits who decided to murder people because they offended Mohammed and Islam.

Some reactions to some Foxnews clip are as emotional as they are to the actual attacks themselves.

Focus on the actions, reasoning of the attacks, the victims not a random Foxnews clip.

Have you seen the clip in question? Especially at around 9m? Where they say they insinuate that it might have been hard to tell if these guys were bad guys because they spoke perfect French and had ski masks on so we couldn't see what colour they were. The implication being that people of colour are the bad guys. I think that it warrants a pretty strong negative reaction. Not much I can do if you disagree.

 

[Fenderputty]

The Young Turks address the US right winged media rhetorics of these events: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bI-E-sbJEA

I'm pretty horrified by some of that Fox News stuff. Especially @ 9:45 and onwards

Fox is so lol.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

New York has a communist mayor? lol

the fuck are these people smoking