They aren't professionals. They just have a lot of experience with fire arms.
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Terrorist attack at Charlie Hebdo magazine. 12 dead. 11 wounded.
- Thread starter bishoptl
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lol wat?
I think it's strange that they even carried ID's. And how the hell do you drop something like that? Mine's in a wallet and for it to just sliiiiide out is impossible.
Stereogatari
Banned
That's true, or maybe it's best to say visible Muslims are most at risk of being discriminated.
A blonde or brunette Turkish girl is not going to get discriminated against because people will think she's white.
I'm not, but you can't deny that some of these cartoons are playing off racial haracterisations of North Africans ans Middle Easterners.
Also religion being a choice is not true for most believers. If they've grown up with belief being the norm then to what extent have they chosen? It's just a default state to most. A strange psychological phenomenon that many of us have been fortunate enough to break from.
Another point is that Islamic symbolism is tied to the cultures of many ethnic groups, so the line between religious criticism and racism is blurred, especially since most Muslims (Bar Balkan Muslims, Turks and some others) are racially distinct from Europeans.
ComputerMKII
Banned
You wouldn't believe how many times the word "nazi" was utterred on Twitter during the last World Cup
UnluckyKate
Member
Fuck
With their heads shot to swiss cheese. Yes, peacefully.
Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but you were the one comparing race and religion...
Business
Member
you'll have to elaborate a bit more if you are able.
They were pretty amateuristic in their approach. One of them showed some weapons training (the concentrated fire on the windshield is an example of that), but otherwise... A security officer analysed the attack in the newspaper I read, and listed the stupidities.
- Going to the wrong adress at first
- One of them wears his weapon wrong, and should have a very bruised shoulder now
- the same guy walks in the line of fire of his comrade
- they didn't have a getaway car ready, but needed to jack one
etc. His conclusion was: these were amateurs and the attack wasn't as securily planned out as you'd think.
So yeah, I do believe they had their ID's with them (to become anonymous as fast as they could, they should've had ID's with them when they went 'civilian'), and they left them in their flight. Not on purpose, but in the heat of the moment.
I don't understand what's your point in the end. Satire against a minority is more painful than satire against a majority? Might be, yes. Depends also on the actual subject of the satire. And? What's the follow up point to that? What do you want to argument?
I think your disagreement is just a semantic formality. Racism is oppression. Muslims, most notably minorities with visible differences, experience discrimination, harassment, marginalisation, etc., which I define as oppression. Structural oppression at that.
Ether_Snake
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They got an RPG apparently, hope they get killed/caught soon.
That post by SpeedOfNuts is exactly right - muslims in Europe aren't any more discriminated than other religions, skin colors, shoe sizes or whatever else some cretins which are only a fraction of any given population wish to discriminate at the moment.
Even suggesting that they should have a pass and should be exempt from satire is pure patronizing and edges on the whole dreaded "Political Correctness" (hate that term, but nothing else comes to mind).
And on a subject at hand: It is not a matter of being polite. Heck, you should be able to draw anything you want, even if it was specifically my mother having sex with a donkey. I would be offended, sure. I would probably even go to court with it. And that's the only civilized response I can imagine.
Palette Swap
Member
I know and that doesn't make it right. It just means it's far too common and people tend to behave like shit.
I believe this is as good a time as any to rise above this petty shit.
A lot of the non english speaking posted these cartoons especially european. US/UK newspapers seem too scared though.
Of course they are oppressed. In Sweden there's hundreds of islamophobic crimes every year. Do you think a woman with a hijab has the same chance of getting a job as a white Christian in Europe?
And why I replied like that is because I think your statement really isn't even worth discussing, would be like saying black people aren't oppressed in US.
FlyingSaucer
Banned
"Nazi=German" jokes are a convenient scapegoat and a easy way to forget that most others European countries have been guilty of pogroms at one moment or another during the last millenia. Sorry that it keep being rubbed on your face
Ok, fine. You don't get to claim "Je Suis Charlie" then.
Always-honest
Banned
Haha, well... I kinda hope they will be caught alive. But i wouldn't sleep any less if it rained bullits in their faces for a day.
Stereogatari
Banned
I'm not talking about the world stage but within countries.
Let me explain with a drawn out analogy. Let's say Germany had been colonised by Turkey in the past. And today the advance Turkish economy signs a deal for German guest workers to do the low-end jobs in Turkey. These Turkish German communities are very religious compared to the Secularised Turks. One day a satirical newspaper draws satirical cartoons making fun of these German Christians. These Germans feel very hurt because historically their country was colonised, the results of that colonisation mean they have to migrate to their former masters to make a decent living and on top of the discrimination they sometimes encounter in day to day life, they are hit on the head by widely publicised cartoons and one a bunch of net savy Turks create a "Draw Jesus day" and feel fantastic about exerting their cultural dominance.
In such a reality, can you maybe see how a Muslim feels hard done by?
"Nazi=German" jokes are a convenient scapegoat and a easy way to forget that most others European countries have been guilty of pogroms at one moment or another during the last millenia. Sorry that it keep being rubbed on your face
It's cool mate, Nazi's are basically pop culture now and we can always just shout something like "VE VILL ATTACK FROM ZE MOOOOOOOOOOON!!!" cause it's all silly rubbish anyway.
Trending etc etc. I've seen swedish politicians stand up for what has happened on Twitter, but they're at the same time people who defend religious extremism to the out most.
Nor I.
ComputerMKII
Banned
Charlie Hebdo's lawyer just said that the next issue would be printed at 1 million copies (instead of the regular 60 thousand).
UnluckyKate
Member
Hope they don't dig in a shop taking hostages. That would be messy
probably not enough. The demand will be incredibly high
Stereogatari
Banned
Political Correctness is a very Anglosphere phenomenon.
I am not following you at all? Could you elaborate?
Yes, it's more painful, so we agree on that. That also means that when we talk about satire, then what I personally would consider to be good satire would be satire that challenged or questioned those in power, whereas bad satire (to me) went out of its way to ridicule people who are already discriminated against and who are already exposed to a lot of ridicule and stigmatization and oppression in their daily lives. That does not at all mean that the latter doesn't deserve to exist - I am only saying it is possible to criticize it for being bad - i.e. my point is that freedom of speech does not entail freedom from criticism.
But it's a complex issue and the latter can be achieved successfully at times, but it's really tricky. I think this article about how comedy and rape jokes are a good way to understand the topic of "satire":
Solidarity. Conan said it right.
Unfortunate but probably true. The countries who invented the concept of constitutional liberty and freedom of speech have been turning their back on it for many years now.
maniac-kun
Member
I just hope no one of the police force will die today if they realy raid them.
I doubt GIGN will hesitate to do what's necessary to put them down.
Who are you talking about again? Obviously non-french people don't know about a small satirical magazine, but everyone in France knew it even if they don't necessarily buy it or even like it.
ComputerMKII
Banned
The Front National is asking for a referendum on the return of the death penalty (Source: BFMTV)
Surprising...
"..."
They will now hopefully face special forces who are trained for these situations, instead of regular officers overwhelmed with firepower
I'm sorry but this is simply not true. Muslim Europeans, notably visible minorities, have it pretty tough in a lot of European countries.
No one is saying they should get a pass by whatever you wish to say or express, I am saying that it is entirely okay to be considerate of other people's feelings when you express someting. You can still go ahead and express it, but in the same way it is okay for people to express their criticism of what you are saying.
You can draw anything you want. You can draw anything you want. You can draw anything you want. No one is arguing for censorship or something not existing.
This is the wrong way if you wanna stay in the EU.
UnluckyKate
Member
Of course i can see where they come from but that doesn't mean that they're right.
And it is pretty similiar to us germans. In the 1950s-60s our nazi past was silenced to death, no one was allowed to talk about it let alone joke about it. Society didn't allowed it. But we learned (And i think that this kind of short coming in the islamic world) to laugh about ourselves and our past. We make jokes about catholic priests being pedophiles (even the pope), we make jokes about hitler and the cult of his followers because we learned that it is ok to voice your opinion. I think muslims wouldn't be as upset about jokes/satire with their religion if they would sometimes laugh about it like they do with everything else here in germany. Islam shouldn't be a exception if muslims are making various jokes about religions and politicians aswell.
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
Not an expert on them, but I'm pretty sure the FN want out of the EU.
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