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Terrorist attack at Charlie Hebdo magazine. 12 dead. 11 wounded.

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J

Joni

Member
Lime said:
You can draw anything you want. You can draw anything you want. You can draw anything you want. No one is arguing for censorship or something not existing.
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Except the guy that started this conversation on Sky, the guys that executed this attack and so many, many, many other people justifying the attack because Charlie Hebdo insulted their prophet.
 
K

Kabouter

Member
Lime said:
Yes, it's more painful, so we agree on that. That also means that when we talk about satire, then what I personally would consider to be good satire would be satire that challenged or questioned those in power, whereas bad satire (to me) went out of its way to ridicule people who are already discriminated against and who are already exposed to a lot of ridicule and stigmatization and oppression in their daily lives. That does not at all mean that the latter doesn't deserve to exist - I am only saying it is possible to criticize it for being bad - i.e. my point is that freedom of speech does not entail freedom from criticism.
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I think good satire challenges hypocrisies, flaws, abuses and so on in things that are normally seen as untouchable. Satirizing religions, including Islam, is entirely appropriate in that context. That it is a minority religion in Western countries doesn't seem necessarily relevant to me. Satirists had a field day with communist parties around a century ago for instance, and they certainly weren't in power in any of the countries where they were mocked.

ComputerMKII said:
The Front National hates the EU, the Euro and wants to leave both...
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As well as the Council of Europe apparently. Maybe the FN believes that only Belarus is on the right track in Europe, who knows?
 
M

maniac-kun

Member
Die beiden Verdächtigen sollen sich in einer Wohnung im Ort Crépy-en-Valois verschanzt haben, berichtet der Sender France 3 Picardie unter Berufung auf lokale Behörden. Polizeiwagen seien vor Ort.
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Both suspects are apparently hiding in a flat in Crépy-en-Valois according to french TV station: France 3 Picardie

http://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/picardie/

Police is allready there.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/charlie-hebdo-newsblog-zum-anschlag-von-paris-a-1011790.html
 
C

ComputerMKII

Banned
Seeing that Charlie Hebdo columnist struggling to hold his tears on BFMTV is moving.

Edit: And he said that Charlie Hebdo's journalists hated homages, lol. Yeah, I'm not surprised they didn't.
 
K

Klyka

Banned
Kabouter said:
I think good satire challenges hypocrisies, flaws, abuses and so on in things that are normally seen as untouchable. Satirizing religions, including Islam, is entirely appropriate in that context. That it is a minority religion in Western countries doesn't seem necessarily relevant to me. Satirists had a field day with communist parties around a century ago for instance, and they certainly weren't in power in any of the countries where they were mocked.
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I agree with this.

When you make fun of a religion you make fun of the religion worldwide, not just of the minority in your country. You are making fun of the THING not specifically of the PEOPLE.
 
M

Maninthemirror

Banned
Xando said:
Of course i can see where they come from but that doesn't mean that they're right.

And it is pretty similiar to us germans. In the 1950s-60s our nazi past was silenced to death, no one was allowed to talk about it let alone joke about it. Society didn't allowed it. But we learned (And i think that this kind of short coming in the islamic world) to laugh about ourselves and our past. We make jokes about catholic priests being pedophiles (even the pope), we make jokes about hitler and the cult of his followers because we learned that it is ok to voice your opinion. I think muslims wouldn't be as upset about jokes/satire with their religion if they would sometimes laugh about it like they do with everything else here in germany. Islam shouldn't be a exception if muslims are making various jokes about religions and politicians aswell.
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Are you saying
Jokes about islams founder = nazi jokes?
Modern day Germany = Moderate Muslims ?
 
C

chadskin

Member
maniac-kun said:
Both suspects are apparently hiding in a flat in Crépy-en-Valois according to french TV station: France 3 Picardie

http://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/picardie/

Police is allready there.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/charlie-hebdo-newsblog-zum-anschlag-von-paris-a-1011790.html
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Heavy police presence in Crépy-en-Valois:

B61Cj5UIAAAswW3.jpg:large
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https://twitter.com/PolishSoldier1/status/553171514556973056
 
K

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Lime said:
I am not following you at all? Could you elaborate?



Yes, it's more painful, so we agree on that. That also means that when we talk about satire, then what I personally would consider to be good satire would be satire that challenged or questioned those in power, whereas bad satire (to me) went out of its way to ridicule people who are already discriminated against and who are already exposed to a lot of ridicule and stigmatization and oppression in their daily lives. That does not at all mean that the latter doesn't deserve to exist - I am only saying it is possible to criticize it for being bad - i.e. my point is that freedom of speech does not entail freedom from criticism.

But it's a complex issue and the latter can be achieved successfully at times, but it's really tricky. I think this article about how comedy and rape jokes are a good way to understand the topic of "satire":
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Satire doesn't attack only positions of power, but also bad habits of different communities. The only humour/satire police that exists is that it should still be within the limits of law. And if the satire is bad the magazine doesn't sell. A magazine is not some kind of public authority or NGO.
 
L

Lime

Member
Kabouter said:
I think good satire challenges hypocrisies, flaws, abuses and so on in things that are normally seen as untouchable. Satirizing religions, including Islam, is entirely appropriate in that context. That it is a minority religion in Western countries doesn't seem necessarily relevant to me. Satirists had a field day with communist parties around a century ago for instance, and they certainly weren't in power in any of the countries where they were mocked.
Click to expand...

This is not only a religion, but a culture as well. And this specific culture within European societies is discriminated against and oppressed. So when you contribute to the marginalisation of this particular group of people, don't you think that is worthy of criticism? Muslim Europeans, notably visible minorities, are culturally and racially discriminated against in European countries. This should be pretty evident, right?

Thus, just like a White US citizen making a racial joke at the expense of Black US citizens is frowned up by virtue of the marginalised status of Black people in the US, so can jokes at the expense of Muslim culture (and the racial stereotypes that are so prevalent) be frowned upon.

And again, before the censorship police jumps in: No, I am not advocating censorship and I am not saying expressions shouldn't be allowed or exist. I am saying that it is entirely possible to be critical of especially racist and islamophobic satire given the state of affairs in Europe.
 
F

FlyingSaucer

Banned
KingSnake said:
Satire doesn't attack only positions of power, but also bad habits of different communities. The only humour/satire police that exists is that it should still be within the limits of law. And if the satire is bad the magazine doesn't sell. A magazine is not some kind of public authority or NGO.
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Yes. Whatever your status, race, religion, etc, you shouldn't hide behind it as an excuse from criticism.
 
Y

YoghPL

Neo Member
mellz said:
Of course they are oppressed. In Sweden there's hundreds of islamophobic crimes every year. Do you think a woman with a hijab has the same chance of getting a job as a white Christian in Europe?

And why I replied like that is because I think your statement really isn't even worth discussing, would be like saying black people aren't oppressed in US.
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Question one: How many women in hijabs are permitted to search for a job anyway? I'm seriously asking this question, as I am not completely sure they would be a majority of muslim job seekers in Sweden (or anywhere else to be honest). And I'm not talking about the "oppression of women in islamic faith"/lack of education needed for the job (that is the direct result of the aformentioned religious beliefs in some - not all - cases)/language barrier/experience required/whatever else you wish - that's not the point at all. I'm just wondering how many hijab-clad women are looking for a job right now in Sweden.

Question two: Are you basing the general statment of "opression of black people" in US on Ferguson shitstorm that has nothing to do with general attitude and is simply a huge fuck up that is blown out of proportions (by both sides of the conflict), or are you just forgot it's not 1950 anymore?

Oppression is another key phrase in such discussions, but what many forget about is the fact that although racism and discrimination is not a thing of the past and still exists in the world, 99% of the general population doesn't really give a fuck about someone's beliefs or skin colors (even in dire situations like the one with Charlie Hebdo) and just want to be left alone with their much more real problems. Using the hate speeches and doings of a vocal minority to paint a picture of the whole population is not a wise thing to do.
 
J

Juicy Bob

Member
Klyka said:
I bet these dumb fucks are gonna blow themselves up with their own rocket launcher.
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To be honest, I'm more hoping that no more innocent people or members of the French authorities are hurt.

But it would be great for justice if they could be captured alive and made to face trial to answer for their atrocities.
 
G

Guy.brush

Member
ComputerMKII said:
One of them lost his shoe, they also knocked at the wrong address (twice) and they had to hijack a car. Also, they try to go train in Iraq and failed.

Those terrorists are semi-amateurs, what's new?
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Kind of glad they turned out to be the typical semi-amateurs and not some terror squad out of a 24 story arc. First they went to the wrong address (archives), then they needed to force a mother to type in the pin code for them, using a scared 18 year old as driver etc.
Sure they might have had some training on rifles somewhere in the middle east, but they sure seem to be your typical failed kids in essence.
No father, growing up alone, no prospects for the future, easy prey for religious intoxination that pretends to give their lives meaning.
 
K

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Klyka said:
I agree with this.

When you make fun of a religion you make fun of the religion worldwide, not just of the minority in your country. You are making fun of the THING not specifically of the PEOPLE.
Click to expand...

And the point is that you don't even make fun of the religion in itself. And much less of the people believing in that religion. When there is a drawing showing a priest/pope/God with a kid and some pedophile pun, that doesn't mean that all the catholics are pedophiles. It's just a way of attacking something that is wrong by the standards of the respective society within the respective religious organization.
 
C

ComputerMKII

Banned
Man, BFMTV keep asking questions to the columnist but he can barely speak. He stays silent for like 5 seconds before answering anything, and speaks with a barely audible voice. That's painful. I sort of wish they'd leave him alone.
 
K

Klyka

Banned
Guy.brush said:
Kind of glad they turned out to be the typical semi-amateurs and not some terror squad out of a 24 story arc. First they went to the wrong address (archives), then they needed to force a mother to type in the pin code for them, using a scared 18 year old as driver etc.
Sure they might have had some training on rifles somewhere in the middle east, but they sure seem to be your typical failed kids in essence.
No father, growing up alone, no prospects for the future, easy prey for religious intoxination that pretends to give their lives meaning.
Click to expand...

And SO many virgins dude. Just...SO many virgins.
 
L

Lime

Member
KingSnake said:
Satire doesn't attack only positions of power, but also bad habits of different communities.
Click to expand...

Of course, but that's not at all what I am talking about. I am talking about satire that reproduces racist depictions of especially oppressed groups of people. That's what I would call bad satire. It's fine to exist, I'm just calling it bad. Satire isn't very good when you're punching down - that's just punching someone you've got pinned and laughing at them while you're doing it.

The only humour/satire police that exists is that it should still be within the limits of law. And if the satire is bad the magazine doesn't sell. A magazine is not some kind of public authority or NGO.
Click to expand...

I have no idea what you are talking about here.
 
S

Stereogatari

Banned
Xando said:
Of course i can see where they come from but that doesn't mean that they're right.

And it is pretty similiar to us germans. In the 1950s-60s our nazi past was silenced to death, no one was allowed to talk about it let alone joke about it. Society didn't allowed it. But we learned (And i think that this kind of short coming in the islamic world) to laugh about ourselves and our past. We make jokes about catholic priests being pedophiles (even the pope), we make jokes about hitler and the cult of his followers because we learned that it is ok to voice your opinion. I think muslims wouldn't be as upset about jokes/satire with their religion if they would sometimes laugh about it like they do with everything else here in germany. Islam shouldn't be a exception if muslims are making various jokes about religions and politicians aswell.
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Well said. And looking at Arab newspapers there are plenty of satirical depictions of Jews.
 
M

Maninthemirror

Banned
Xando said:
No, i used the german example to show that you have to learn to laugh about yourself which in my opinion the islamic world hasn't done yet.
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Oh most Muslims do laugh about ourselves, the only thing we don't laugh at is God himself and his Prophets. The reason is the religious nature, the thought is if we joke or mock the thing we worship and revere and respect then we bring their level of respect down. This is why most muslims joke about clerics and their rules and non Prophet related religious leaders because they in the eyes of most Muslims are not near perfect and not a link between God and man for people
 
C

ComputerMKII

Banned
There has been so much police/special forces movement since this morning I have no idea what's going on. How do you guys even keep up with the news?
 
K

Kinyou

Member
Lime said:
This is not only a religion, but a culture as well. And this specific culture within European societies is discriminated against and oppressed. So when you contribute to the marginalisation of this particular group of people, don't you think that is worthy of criticism? Muslim Europeans, notably visible minorities, are culturally and racially discriminated against in European countries. This should be pretty evident, right?
Click to expand...
Was the satire specifically directed at Muslim Europeans or Islam in general? I was under the impression it was the latter. And Islam is definitely worthy of criticism (just like every other religion)
 
M

MistakenMobius

Member
Lime said:
Of course, but that's not at all what I am talking about. I am talking about satire that reproduces racist depictions of especially oppressed groups of people. That's what I would call bad satire. It's fine to exist, I'm just calling it bad. Satire isn't very good when you're punching down - that's just punching someone you've got pinned and laughing at them while you're doing it.
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Well, you better not make fun or Israel and the Jews then. Or are they fair game?
 
K

Kabouter

Member
Lime said:
This is not only a religion, but a culture as well. And this specific culture within European societies is discriminated against and oppressed. So when you contribute to the marginalisation of this particular group of people, don't you think that is worthy of criticism? Muslim Europeans, notably visible minorities, are culturally and racially discriminated against in European countries. This should be pretty evident, right?

Thus, just like a White US citizen making a racial joke at the expense of Black US citizens is frowned up by virtue of the marginalised status of Black people in the US, so can jokes at the expense of Muslim culture (and the racial stereotypes that are so prevalent) be frowned upon.
Click to expand...

I don't agree that there is such a thing as Muslim culture, because, say, someone from Jakarta and someone from Marrakesh are highly unlikely to have very many cultural similarities. Good satire will satirize Islam, which is not a culture, but a religion, one of the largest in the world in fact. On top of that, criticizing or satirizing Islam is not marginalizing adherents of said faith. Which is not to say that satire of Islam couldn't be racist or otherwise marginalizing, as just about anything could be, but it does mean that it isn't necessarily, and that there is no real reasonable argument to be made for satirizing everything except Islam.
 
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