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[Sickboy007]

To the people who are saying that Islamic people should start to learn laughing about their religion / prophet, what if that just isn't possible because of how deeply rooted their religion is in their life, their identity? Shouldn't that also be respected?

For example Thailand. Thai people are widely known to be very laid back people, with a lot of humor. However, their King is sacred. Nobody will make a joke about the king, it is just not done, it is not accepted and I doubt the stance of this will ever change.

Your own example falls apart when you consider how many lèse majesté prosecutions there are in Thailand. People do criticize the royalty, but they get 15 years jail sentences for it.

The current crown prince is also the object of ridicule and scorn by many Thais, but any reports of it are banned.

 

[YoghPL]

What if someone repeatedly mocks your mother. How would that make you feel?

I know mocking ones mother and a religion is not really the same but perhaps for very religious people that have a different culture than ours which we don't fully understand mocking their prophet or religion hits as hard as someone mocking your mother.

As I've said a page or two before - a satirical cartoon can be about my mother. It also can be offensive as hell. And I would not be happy about it and I'd surely file a lawsuit of some kind. But first of all, it's an attack on a single, specific person, and second of all, civil (which is not far from "civilized") action is the only way you can choose (if you choose it at all, as some wouldn't be even too offended by that). I can laugh at anything - my nationality and my religion are not exempt from it, I probably like self-depreciation humor the most, although I am not a stranger to a good black/jew/asian/muslim/protestant/whatever-the-fuck-there-is joke and I can appreciate one when I hear or see it. My parents are probably as sacred to me as the Prophet is to muslims and I understand they might be not to happy about it. But I'm not going to burn a house down because someone told something about my mother, and no one should. There are some lines that someone with half a brain does not cross and looking for a resoning of any actions of such type because "prophet/jesus/martin luther king/invisible pink unicorn/optimus prime/my mom is sacred" is just insane.

 

[Klyka]

Your own example falls apart when you consider how many lèse majesté prosecutions there are in Thailand. People do criticize the royalty, but they get 15 years jail sentences for it.

Bahaha that is amazing.

"No one in Thailand critizes the king!"
"yeah because it's ILLEGAL".

 

[ComputerMKII]

Publishing Muhammad cartoons would have been too risky, says Amol Rajan

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-muhammad-cartoons-independent-amol-rajan

It's a shame british newspapers are too scared to show the muhammad cartoons.

What use is a newspaper that gives the terrorists exactly what they want?

 

[Frodo]

Publishing Muhammad cartoons would have been too risky, says Amol Rajan

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-muhammad-cartoons-independent-amol-rajan

It's a shame british newspapers are too scared to show the muhammad cartoons.

It is ridiculous. Letting religious institutions or beliefs guide what you should publish. We start giving the extremists that, it only goes downhill from there.

 

[Guy.brush]

Not buying that "muslims are oppressed in Europe" talking point. That is not my experience at all. Not in the UK, not in France or Germany.
I can't imagine living your whole life with a victim complex as being good for your community's wellbeing. If one is quick to blame personal misery on the "Western society" one lives in, one never gets out of a downward/hate spiral.

 

[Business]

Of course they are oppressed. In Sweden there's hundreds of islamophobic crimes every year. Do you think a woman with a hijab has the same chance of getting a job as a white Christian in Europe?

And why I replied like that is because I think your statement really isn't even worth discussing, would be like saying black people aren't oppressed in US.

No I don't think she has the same chance, but that's not because of muslim opression. She has a lesser chance because she is most probably an immigrant.

Nobody will ask you what's your religion when you go look for a job. If you suffer discrimination will be because you look north African or black or whatever, but not because of your religion.

 

[Dwalls]

I wish I could declare 2015 the year of deity drawing so we could just flood the entire world with images parodying the figure heads of every goddamn religion on earth. There has to be a point where it becomes futile to target a single entity, thus preventing atrocious attacks like these. I'll throw my non existent art skills into the hat and I'll launch mspaint atleast once a day this year to attempt the drawing of a deity, prophet, or whatever the hell else people might be displeased by.

 

[tomtom94]

Publishing Muhammad cartoons would have been too risky, says Amol Rajan

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-muhammad-cartoons-independent-amol-rajan

It's a shame british newspapers are too scared to show the muhammad cartoons.

It's a shame British newspapers won't publish the cartoons but will lazily stick the boot into Muslims.

 

[neorej]

Wow wait my post wasn't saying that it's justified to kill somebody over a satire. I think it's terrible what happened yesterday.

My posts where aimed at people who were saying that Islam people should lighten up and laugh about the jokes or start to do so. I just said I could understand how some of these cartoons could hurt or offend people. However, answering with violence? No, just NO!

That's how western society works; we mock everyone AND their mothers. Both mothers if he's got lesbian parents. Unless we can watch them scissor.

I digress, mockery is a core part of western values and society and once you put something aside and say "okay, we can mock anything, except that", what makes that one thing so special? Why does it deserve an exceptional position within our society?
And you know what happens when people suggest that? Others will start mocking it BECAUSE others demanded not to mock it.

Remember Beyonce? She asked to remove certain photo's from the internet because she was afraid they would be used for mockery of her person. What happened? The internet exploded with pictures mocking Beyonce.

Neither Muslims, nor Allah, nor Muhammed, nor anyone's mother is beyond the limits of mockery or satire. Nothing is. That's western society.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Left-wing newspaper Libération is sheltering the Charlie Hebdo staff (BFMTV)

 

[FlyingSaucer]

Not buying that "muslims are oppressed in Europe" talking point. That is not my experience at all. Not in the UK, not in France or Germany.
I can't imagine living your whole life with a victim complex as being good for your community's wellbeing. If one is quick to blame personal misery on the "Western society" one lives in, one never gets out of a downward/hate spiral.

It's terribly destructive for self-respect. And it help to jusfity anything

 

[Jokab]

Oh come on, it's not the obligation of newspapers around the world to publish Muhammad cartoons. If they fear for their lives, then I think we should respect that. I would have made the same decision if I were in that position. If other newspapers want to show courage and integrity then be my guest, but I'm not going to sit here and say "put your lives at risk! for freedom!"

 

[Mimosa97]

To the people talking about how Charlie Hebdo mocked Islam and how it must have hurt the muslim population in France, i have a bit of news for you.

First of all, if you ask most muslims in France who were hurt by the first cartoons, it's not the fact that they mocked islam, it's the fact that they depicted the prophet as a terrorist. Most of my muslim friends told me that muslims were already pictured in the news as terrorists on a daily basis so for Charlie Hebdo to go that far and say the prophet is a terrorist is what hurt them the most.

Then you would also find all the religious " leaders " ( even though there's no real muslim leader in France, only self-proclamed leaders who at the end don't have much influence on the muslim community ) who had more radical views saying CH shouldn't have made drawings of the prophet making fun of him cause it was forbidden in Islam to do so and that it was racist to depict him as a terrorist so they took their claims to the courts and they lost their trial. They didn't appeal and they kinda moved on.

So to all of you thinking that the " problem " some people had with the cartoons were because they made fun of islam are wrong. It was more about the prophet drawings than anything else.

Anyways, as someone who checked their work from time time, I can tell you that they changed their angle of criticism. I think they understood that they weren't being productive just depicting the prophet as a terrorist so if you see most of their recent drawings about him there's one that says " It's hard being loved by idiots ". An other one that says " the Qu'ran doesn't stop bullets " or one about an Isis terrorist beheading the prophet calling him an infidel to show how crazy those people are.

But again, they were very brave to do so, every society needs cartoonists like the ones we lost yesterday. The muslims who feel butthurt really need to start questioning themselves and stop being so insecure about their own faith. If you don't feel horrified about the prophet being made fun of, it doesn't mean you're a bad muslim who'll go to hell. I know he's a holy figure, an untouchable one, but heck you could even have a laugh about one of those drawings and you'd still be fine with god

 

[nelsonroyale]

RIP to those who passed. They are bac in the flux.

Why do this? Do these guys hold the reigns of power? This is pathetic and disgraceful. Why do people keep on doing these fucking symbolic killings?

Also, why should newspapers publish the Muhammed cartoon? Was it so bloody funny? I didn't think Danish ones were particularly droll...

 

[FiggyCal]

Publishing Muhammad cartoons would have been too risky, says Amol Rajan

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-muhammad-cartoons-independent-amol-rajan

It's a shame british newspapers are too scared to show the muhammad cartoons.



In the western world you can be mad and angry about stuff that upsets you. You can take a stand and speak up against it but there is this thing called freedom of expression. Thats why we have to allow these horrible anti-islamic demonstrations in germany but a lot more people use their right for their own opinion speak up against these demonstrations by organising counter protests that are a lot larger than the anti islamic protests.

Why do we need to insult the Muslim community by publishing offensive pictures anyway? The people that carried out these attacks will get theirs without any need to further marginalize the rest of the Muslim population.

 

[lemmykoopa]

As I've said a page or two before - a satirical cartoon can be about my mother. It also can be offensive as hell. And I would not be happy about it and I'd surely file a lawsuit of some kind. But first of all, it's an attack on a single, specific person, and second of all, civil (which is not far from "civilized") action is the only way you can choose (if you choose it at all, as some wouldn't be even offended by that). I can laugh at anything - my nationality and my religion are not exempt from it, I probably like self-depreciation humor the most, although I am not a stranger to a good black/jew/asian/muslim/protestant/whatever-the-fuck-there-is joke and I can appreciate one when I hear or see it. My parents are probably as sacred to me as the Prophet is to muslims and I understand they might be not to happy about it. But I'm not going to burn a house down because someone told something about my mother, and no one should be. There are some lines that anyone with half a brain does not cross and looking for a resoning of any actions of such type because "prophet/jesus/martin luther king/invisible pink unicorn/optimus prime/my mom is sacred" is just insane.

I'm not justifying the actions of yesterday nor do I condone any other violence in response to "jokes". All I'm saying that I understand how over the years these kind of cartoons might have offended people.

 

[Mr. RHC]

The Front National is asking for a referendum on the return of the death penalty (Source: BFMTV)

That's just crazy, Le Pen is going nuts.

Back to the Middle Ages it is! <.<

 

[Kurdel]

Oh come on, it's not the obligation of newspapers around the world to publish Muhammad cartoons. If they fear for their lives, then I think we should respect that. I would have made the same decision if I were in that position. If other newspapers want to show courage and integrity then be my guest, but I'm not going to sit here and say "put your lives at risk! for freedom!"

I respect courage in the face of ridiculous threats, not submission.

 

[kruis]

Why do we need to insult the Muslim community by publishing offensive pictures anyway? The people that carried out these attacks will get theirs without any need to further marginalize the rest of the Muslim population.

Why should *ANY* religious group be exempted from satire and criticism?

 

[Kathian]

To the people who are saying that Islamic people should start to learn laughing about their religion / prophet, what if that just isn't possible because of how deeply rooted their religion is in their life, their identity? Shouldn't that also be respected?

For example Thailand. Thai people are widely known to be very laid back people, with a lot of humor. However, their King is sacred. Nobody will make a joke about the king, it is just not done, it is not accepted and I doubt the stance of this will ever change.

Additional to other peoples points - The French behead their Kings.

 

[UncleSporky]

That's how western society works; we mock everyone AND their mothers. Both mothers if he's got lesbian parents. Unless we can watch them scissor.

I digress, mockery is a core part of western values and society and once you put something aside and say "okay, we can mock anything, except that", what makes that one thing so special? Why does it deserve an exceptional position within our society?
And you know what happens when people suggest that? Others will start mocking it BECAUSE others demanded not to mock it.

Remember Beyonce? She asked to remove certain photo's from the internet because she was afraid they would be used for mockery of her person. What happened? The internet exploded with pictures mocking Beyonce.

Neither Muslims, nor Allah, nor Muhammed, nor anyone's mother is beyond the limits of mockery or satire. Nothing is. That's western society.

I do think there should always be room for some mercy, some good-natured relaxing of the mockery when appropriate, because come on, we're all in this together.

Like for example, what special kind of asshole would mock Charlie Hebdo and the pain they're going through at this moment.

 

[patapuf]

I've once had to tell a white guy to not say the N word so much because it's offensive. His response:
"Why? I'm not offended by it."

I think it's irresponsible to ask newspapers to run pictures that Muslims all over deem offensive just to get back at 3 guys.

Yeah, no. Muslims that deem any depiction of the prophet as offensive will have to live with the fact that this is not how things are in Europe.

Press freedom is one of the pillars of our democracies. Mocking and critising things openly is part of that. Islam is a world religion. It's way to big to be exempt from that.

I do not want a culture of self censorship and Taboos.

 

[Sickboy007]

Bahaha that is amazing.

"No one in Thailand critizes the king!"
"yeah because it's ILLEGAL".

They have a royalist coup d'état once every decade, but I'm sure this has nothing to do with it!

 

[chadskin]

New picture from police presence in Crépy-en-Valois

Huge convoy of police incl black armoured truck just flew through Crepy en Valois.

https://twitter.com/inglesi/status/553190496349462528/photo/1

 

[DECK'ARD]

General statement to everyone quoting me: I am giving my viewpoint on the topic of good or bad satire. It does not mean that you are wrong or that I think anyone is dumb. Just in case anyone feels they are addressed personally in any way.

With that being said, I really have to get back to work so this will probably be my last reply to the ones at the time of writing quoted me unless someone wants to make a thread about good vs. bad satire in terms of power relationships within Western societies in cases of marginalized and oppressed minority groups. I can't keep up with this thread.



Some autors are not aiming only for a religion when they are depicting Middle-Eastern people through racial stereotypes.



We were discussing the topic of good vs. bad satire. It's fine to make either, and I was just making the argument that bad satire is to me something that involves racist stereotypes of oppressed minority groups.



Sometimes it's healthy everyone yes, but satire like, let's say, Blackface or racist stereotypes are not healthy for everyone. This is just to tell you that satire isn't absolute.



Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. Wow. No. Seriously no. Of course these despicable murders are condemnable on all fronts. But that doesn't mean I can't criticise bad satire that kicks down on already oppressed minority groups. I can't believe you would think I am justifying these heinous acts.



In the US many would beg to differ. Not that people are a sacred lamb, but that it matters who you are ridiculing.



I didn't mean to sound contemptful - I apologise if I came across that way - what I am saying is that being a Muslim with visible differences can be quite tough and I think it should be evident with what is going down in Europe in the last couple of years.

I am really happy that your team gelled nicely together.

Are you still running with that terrible Tumblresque article you posted about 'white people punching down', even though people told you it was a shit piece?

The author was completely ill-informed and didn't even understand the cartoons he was criticising. I suggest you read some of the comments, which explain the context and the actual meaning behind them and what they were actually attacking.

Satire is often provocative, it provokes thought, it can also be misread, and if you want to talk about people 'punching down' I'd look to the ones holding the Kalashnikovs.

 

[luso]

Publishing Muhammad cartoons would have been too risky, says Amol Rajan

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-muhammad-cartoons-independent-amol-rajan

It's a shame british newspapers are too scared to show the muhammad cartoons.



In the western world you can be mad and angry about stuff that upsets you. You can take a stand and speak up against it but there is this thing called freedom of expression. Thats why we have to allow these horrible anti-islamic demonstrations in germany but a lot more people use their right for their own opinion speak up against these demonstrations by organising counter protests that are a lot larger than the anti islamic protests.

Some newspaper covers from Portugal

If you don't know, first one reads:
- We've avenged you, Muhammad!
- Oh my God...

 

[Psychotext]

UK defeated.

RIP in Pieces.

Yup. Not to mention that many of our papers didn't even have the class of the Independent and showed photos of the terrorists on the front page.

 

[Xando]

Why do we need to insult the Muslim community by publishing offensive pictures anyway? The people that carried out these attacks will get theirs without any need to further marginalize the rest of the Muslim population.

So we should give in because muslims might feel insulted? That is exactly what these terrorists want. What about the countless jew cartoons in arabic newspapers, do they stop publishing them because jews might feel insulted?
I feel insulted because they showed the pictures of the terrorists 5 seconds before they execute a police men. Do they care? No.

 

[Dilly]

Why do we need to insult the Muslim community by publishing offensive pictures anyway? The people that carried out these attacks will get theirs without any need to further marginalize the rest of the Muslim population.

Freedom of press.

 

[Mimosa97]

That's just crazy, Le Pen is going nuts.

Back to the Middle Ages it is! <.<

And here i was saying just yesterday that even the far-right extermist party was against the death penalty in France.

Gosh what an opportunist this woman is, she knows a vast majority of french people are against the death penalty but she's trying to use the emotional backlash of the attacks in her favor.

From what i've read in Twitter, i feel like she made a mistake. Most people are calling her nuts.

 

[potam]

I do think there should always be room for some mercy, some good-natured relaxing of the mockery when appropriate, because come on, we're all in this together.

Like for example, what special kind of asshole would mock Charlie Hebdo and the pain they're going through at this moment.

What would be the message of that, though? The reason no one is mocking it is that there is nothing to mock, not that the situation is uniquely above satire. And you know what? In time, months if not days, someone will make a joke about this. Maybe not publicly, but I'm sure it will come up in conversation.

 

[Osahi]

Not buying that "muslims are oppressed in Europe" talking point. That is not my experience at all. Not in the UK, not in France or Germany.
I can't imagine living your whole life with a victim complex as being good for your community's wellbeing. If one is quick to blame personal misery on the "Western society" one lives in, one never gets out of a downward/hate spiral.

I'm sorry. But unemployment rates are higher in their demographic here in Belgium. We had lots of scanfals where certain employers refused to give north-africans work (or outright asked recruitment offices not to send them any), and I heard some crazy talk from the most popular flemish politicien on television yesterday who just was not able to disconnect the majority of muslims in Belgium with these terrorists. (really, it was a talk between him, a right wing columnist who should've retired years ago, a leftwing, turkish politician and a comedian. And it was the goddamn comedian who made the most sense)

There is a sentiment that all muslims must now speak out against this, as if, if they don't do it publicly, they are accomplices. I'm sorry, but that's singling out a group because of the crimes of a part of that group, and it is in my opinion wrong. Do I, as a Belgian, have to apologize because we had one of the biggest pedophiles in history in our country? Do I, as raised a catholic (but atheist now), need to speak out against child abuse by priests? No. As a person, you should speak out against it, not as a community per se. This is to me an example of the sort of 'under the skin' racism and discrimination that is still a big problem in Europe. (The politician I speak of was not affraid to throw fuel on the fire too. But then again, it's a populist dick)

No, there are no segregrationist laws in Europe. There is freedom of religion. There are mosques, and people are free to follow Islam. But truth is, that in day to day society, there is a problem of discrimination and racism...

 

[Xando]

Even the newborns are charlie.

 

[Dilly]

There is a sentiment that all muslims must now speak out against this, as if, if they don't do it publicly, they are accomplices. I'm sorry, but that's singling out a group because of the crimes of a part of that group, and it is in my opinion wrong. Do I, as a Belgian, have to apologize because we had one of the biggest pedophiles in history in our country?

Witte mars.

 

[Kuldar]

And here i was saying just yesterday that even the far-right extermist party was against the death penalty in France.

The far right in France ask for the restoration of the death penalty since its abolishement

 

[Flintty]

Yup. Not to mention that many of our papers didn't even have the class of the Independent and showed photos of the terrorists on the front page.

I fucking hate our newspapers, especially the Sun. I can't fathom why people enjoy reading them - I grew out of it a long time ago.

Hmm, sounds ironic when I still read comics lol.

Even the newborns are charlie.

Wow... Amazing. There are no words.

 

[UnluckyKate]

That's just crazy, Le Pen is going nuts.

Back to the Middle Ages it is! <.<

Populism, how does it work.

She's surfing on the news. Like they always did.

 

[LevelNth]

It is both ironic and a highlight of human compassion and empathy that guerrila terrorism may likely be the straw that eventually brings together the entire human race. It never gets old to see so many strangers take the time to support and mourn horrific events such as this latest shooting.

Makes me feel that in the end, none of these victims of terrorism will have died in vain.

 

[chadskin]

More police moving in to Crépy-en-Valois where suspects are reportedly hiding in a flat:

https://twitter.com/Glecardonnel/status/553188405983838208

 

[Dwalls]

Witte mars.

Was a show of support for the parents of the kids he harmed. It was not an apology. You can't apologize for the actions of someone else.

 

[GusBus]

Bill Maher was on Kimmel last night..."This Is Like Groundhog Day, Except If The Groundhog Kept Getting His Head Cut Off"

Vid here - http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...terror_attack_groundhog_day_head_cut_off.html

 

[waypoetic]

No I don't think she has the same chance, but that's not because of muslim opression. She has a lesser chance because she is most probably an immigrant.

Nobody will ask you what's your religion when you go look for a job. If you suffer discrimination will be because you look north African or black or whatever, but not because of your religion.

In his, and many other far left minds, religion equals race and/or nationality equals a certain religion. However, he talks about a white Christian male getting the job, as if Christians are all white. Absurd.

 

[ComputerMKII]

And here i was saying just yesterday that even the far-right extermist party was against the death penalty in France.

Gosh what an opportunist this woman is, she knows a vast majority of french people are against the death penalty but she's trying to use the emotional backlash of the attacks in her favor.

From what i've read in Twitter, i feel like she made a mistake. Most people are calling her nuts.

The National Front has never been stopped supporting the death penalty. Marine Le Pen even said that Obama would be considered an ignominious fascist in France because he's in favor of the death penalty

 

[Sickboy007]

Even the newborns are charlie.

That's very cool.

 

[Dilly]

Was a show of support for the parents of the kids he harmed. It was not an apology. You can't apologize for the actions of someone else.

It was still a strong statement that something should change.

 

[FiggyCal]

Why should *ANY* religious group be exempted from satire and criticism?

I'm not saying that they should be exempt from criticism. Nothing should be exempt from a critical eye.But we should be tactful of innocent Muslims who had nothing to do with any of this. Running offensive pictures of their prophet and turning him into a joke or a terrorist or whatever; insulting them and putting them on the defensive is not a great way to make them see the errors of their ways. It's harassment to the people that had nothing to do with this attack. But are receiving it as some sort of punishment for being associated with them via religion.

Just so we're on the same page: I'm talking about the people that want to publish Charlie Hebdo's pictures in other news outlets to "get them out there" and not the initial attack on CH.

 

[chadskin]

Le Monde reports the French Ministry of Interior did not confirm that the suspects are in Crépy-en-Valois or Villiers-Côterets or that they are now hiding in a flat. Previously, the Ministry outright denied media reports when they were inaccurate.

 

[Osahi]

Witte mars.

That was NOT an apology. It was part a display of mourning (like the many gatherings last night), part a protest against politics who made it possible that the guy could go on for such a long time.

(Don't want to derail this thread with this, just want to make it clear)

 

[Dilly]

I'm not saying that they should be exempt from criticism. Nothing should be exempt from a critical eye.But we should be tactful of innocent Muslims who had nothing to do with any of this. Running offensive pictures of their prophet and turning him into a joke or a terrorist or whatever; insulting them and putting them on the defensive is not a great way to make them see the errors of their ways. It's harassment to the people that had nothing to do with this attack. But are receiving it as some sort of punishment for being associated with them via religion.

Pictures are not harassment.

That was NOT an apolegy. It was part a display of mourning (like the many gatherings last night), part a protest against politics who made it possible that the guy could go on for such a long time.

(Don't want to derail this thread with this, just want to make it clear)

I don't care about an apology, my point is that nothing stopping muslims from also making clear in a large gathering like that that they also want change as not to be associated with these extremists.