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[Alx]

And here i was saying just yesterday that even the far-right extermist party was against the death penalty in France.

Gosh what an opportunist this woman is, she knows a vast majority of french people are against the death penalty but she's trying to use the emotional backlash of the attacks in her favor.

From what i've read in Twitter, i feel like she made a mistake. Most people are calling her nuts.

Yeah I think it's a big mistake she made. She could have asked for a referendum for many shady reforms, but death penalty is still mostly considered barbaric by the population now (even if it wasn't the case when it was abolished). Even with the emotion, most people will think she's going too far and see how manipulative it is.

 

[Mimosa97]

Yeah, no. Muslims that deem any depiction of the prophet as offensive will have to live with the fact that this is not how things are in Europe.

Press freedom is one of the pillars of our democracies. Mocking and critising things openly is part of that. Islam is a world religion. It's way to big to be exempt from that.

I do not want a culture of self censorship and Taboos.

There are way bigger taboos in France.

For example, It's way harder to make cartoons making fun of Jews or Israel than to make fun of muslims. This isn't the subject of the topic so i won't go any further but there's a lot of self-censorship in France. One of the historical Charlie Hebdo cartoonists had to leave the journal cause he was a big israel critic and made fun of the son of the president saying he converted to judaism to be able to marry one of the richest heiress in the country and that it was a clever move from his part. His name was Siné.

 

[UncleSporky]

What would be the message of that, though? The reason no one is mocking it is that there is nothing to mock, not that the situation is uniquely above satire. And you know what? In time, months if not days, someone will make a joke about this. Maybe not publicly, but I'm sure it will come up in conversation.

This isn't about the presence or absence of a message. I was replying to a statement saying that we mock anything and everything, and nothing is above mockery. I just wanted to point out that it's ok not to mock things too, not because that thing is above mockery, but because you're a decent person.

Nothing is sacred, but respect for what another person holds sacred can go a long way. I'm not even saying that people shouldn't be drawing Mohammad, I'm just saying it's something important to keep in mind. Mockery is important, but so is an ounce respect and decency.

 

[Dilly]

Yeah I think it's a big mistake she made. She could have asked for a referendum for many shady reforms, but death penalty is still mostly considered barbaric by the population now (even if it wasn't the case when it was abolished). Even with the emotion, most people will think she's going too far and see how manipulative it is.

Here's hoping she keeps screwing up like this, people like her and her father are pure scum and shouldn't be anywhere near a position of power.

 

[Xando]

I'm not saying that they should be exempt from criticism. Nothing should be exempt from a critical eye.But we should be tactful of innocent Muslims who had nothing to do with any of this. Running offensive pictures of their prophet and turning him into a joke or a terrorist or whatever; insulting them and putting them on the defensive is not a great way to make them see the errors of their ways. It's harassment to the people that had nothing to do with this attack. But are receiving it as some sort of punishment for being associated with them via religion.

Just so we're on the same page: I'm talking about the people that want to publish Charlie Hebdo's pictures in other news outlets to "get them out there" and not the initial attack on CH.

They should publish these pictures to show that they are not scared, to show that they still say their opinion, no matter how much the terrorists hate it. Instead they show the terrorists execute a hero police officer (who was muslim). And to top it all of the head of the paper comes out in a interview and says they are too scared to publish these pictures.

 

[neorej]

I do think there should always be room for some mercy, some good-natured relaxing of the mockery when appropriate, because come on, we're all in this together.

Like for example, what special kind of asshole would mock Charlie Hebdo and the pain they're going through at this moment.

I don't think there's any kind of humor to be found in this tragedy, unless you're a fascist pig celebrating the deaths of cartoonists for not speaking your kind of language. But if you can find it, go for it. You'd be an asshole, but it's your right to be an asshole. Noone is going to kill you for it.

 

[Mimosa97]

The far right in France ask for the restoration of the death penalty since its abolishement

I knew her father was pro-death penalty but i thought she was against it. I guess i was wrong

The National Front has never been stopped supporting the death penalty. Marine Le Pen even said that Obama would be considered an ignominious fascist in France because he's in favor of the death penalty

eh ...

So much bullshit in this interview lol

P.S : Can someone tell me how to make multiple quotes ? I had to do it manually

Edit : Found it !

 

[Sky Chief]

This isn't about the presence or absence of a message. I was replying to a statement saying that we mock anything and everything, and nothing is above mockery. I just wanted to point out that it's ok not to mock things too, not because that thing is above mockery, but because you're a decent person.

Nothing is sacred, but respect for what another person holds sacred can go a long way. I'm not even saying that people shouldn't be drawing Mohammad, I'm just saying it's something important to keep in mind. Mockery is important, but so is an ounce respect and decency.

People just need to grow thicker skin if they want to live in a multicultural society.

 

[UncleSporky]

People just need to grow thicker skin if they want to live in a multicultural society.

Doesn't it feel good to see this outpouring of support and compassion right now? I like compassion. I think we should probably keep it up.

 

[Osahi]

I don't care about an apology, my point is that nothing stopping muslims from also making clear in a large gathering like that that they also want change as not to be associated with these extremists.

They do. An masse.

I just wanted to single out it is weird we demand if from them (yesterday on tv, Bart De Wever as a reaction on the condemnation of the act by fellow Muslims: "Thank god they did". Yeah, offcourse, because if they didn't explicitly, they must approve it, don't they?)

As if otherwise they are guilty of the same crime (I'm stating it a big to hard here, but you know what I mean). That's every fucking time. IS beheads a journalist: hey, muslims, can you please speak out against it? We do not use the same standards for other communities or religions. That was the point I wanted to make. Be demanding a certain group of people to always make public statements about terrible acts, you actually tell: hey, we see you as part of those extremists/criminals, so maybe you should state you aren't.

 

[ComputerMKII]

The lawyer of gunman Cherif Kouachi says that he doesn't recognize his client, that he's become a monster, capable of killing a policeman in cold blood.

 

[Renzoku]

So on the radio they said that the gunmen were still believed to be somewhere in the city? And a cop was shot and killed today?

Any developments on this?

 

[chadskin]

Police seem to concentrate their efforts on what is described as a farm in Crépy-en-Valois. A local journalist reports a lot of police cars are parking in front of that farm, though as of yet it's unclear if that's where the suspects are believed to be hiding or where the police intends to set up some kind of base for a nearby operation.

http://www.bild.de/news/ausland/sch...ng-redaktion-charlie-hebdo-39231410.bild.html

Reuters adds:

French anti-terrorism police converged on an area northeast of Paris after two brothers suspected of being behind an attack on a satirical newspaper were spotted at a petrol station in the region.

Two police sources said that the men were seen armed and wearing cagoules in a Renault Clio car at a petrol station on a secondary road in Villers-Cotterets some 70 kilometers from the French capital.

Amid French media reports the men had abandoned their car, Bruno Fortier, the mayor of neighbouring Crépy-en-Valois, said helicopters were circling his town and police and anti-terrorism forces were deploying en masse.

“It’s an incessant waltz of police cars and trucks,” he told Reuters, adding that he could not confirm reports the men were holed up in a house in the area.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...-arrests-in-manhunt-for-suspects-live-updates

I'm going to go out on a limb and say they have located them.

 

[YoghPL]

I'm not saying that they should be exempt from criticism. Nothing should be exempt from a critical eye.But we should be tactful of innocent Muslims who had nothing to do with any of this. Running offensive pictures of their prophet and turning him into a joke or a terrorist or whatever; insulting them and putting them on the defensive is not a great way to make them see the errors of their ways. It's harassment to the people that had nothing to do with this attack. But are receiving it as some sort of punishment for being associated with them via religion.

I am a catholic and I don't know one catholic priest that is a pedophile, a hipocrite or an adulterer - all are swell guys and I am not all that happy that some people automatically assosciate the gown and cross with horrible actions. But I am aware of the faults of the church institution and the scandals that affect the whole community and I am not blind to see that some priests should be condemned. I am also aware of the fact that faith as a whole might seem ridiculous and often question the building blocks of my own beliefs. And although (as I've said) I am not to keen on calling all priests pedophiles I do not feel harassed by the satire of the church in any way, because it does not attack me personally, but it is based on the real events that took place and it would be simply stupid to go to war with a cartoon that takes those events and exagerates them to make a valid point.

 

[Sky Chief]

Doesn't it feel good to see this outpouring of support and compassion right now? I like compassion. I think we should probably keep it up.

Look, I am the least offensive person you will never meet. I have lived in five different countries on four different continents and am always careful not to offend anyone around me because I realize everyone has different beliefs and things that they hold sacred.

However, moving around like this has also taught me that different cultures will often do things that offend others without even realizing and even when they have the best intentions. The fact is people need to grow thicker skin and when they see something they find offensive not just immediately react.

You cannot just make the entire world a completely unoffensive place to everyone who lives here without sterilizing it way too much. Some people find things like stem cell research offensive to their beliefs but you know what it just may improve the lives of billions of people. The fact is people have to learn to be less offended if we are going to get along.

And there will always be assholes who just want to offend and make others feel like shit. If people let these guys offend then they have won. The only answer is that we all grow some thicker skin and learn to shrug shit off.

 

[DY_nasty]

shit reporting yesterday

really felt like the situation was resolved

 

[lefantome]

Reports say that the Iranian police shut down a ceremony in solidarity of the victims

http://translate.google.com/transla...20150108/143/143.html?id=26782955&prev=search

 

[Guy.brush]

I'm sorry. But unemployment rates are higher in their demographic here in Belgium. We had lots of scanfals where certain employers refused to give north-africans work (or outright asked recruitment offices not to send them any), and I heard some crazy talk from the most popular flemish politicien on television yesterday who just was not able to disconnect the majority of muslims in Belgium with these terrorists. (really, it was a talk between him, a right wing columnist who should've retired years ago, a leftwing, turkish politician and a comedian. And it was the goddamn comedian who made the most sense)

There is a sentiment that all muslims must now speak out against this, as if, if they don't do it publicly, they are accomplices. I'm sorry, but that's singling out a group because of the crimes of a part of that group, and it is in my opinion wrong. Do I, as a Belgian, have to apologize because we had one of the biggest pedophiles in history in our country? Do I, as raised a catholic (but atheist now), need to speak out against child abuse by priests? No. As a person, you should speak out against it, not as a community per se. This is to me an example of the sort of 'under the skin' racism and discrimination that is still a big problem in Europe. (The politician I speak of was not affraid to throw fuel on the fire too. But then again, it's a populist dick)

No, there are no segregrationist laws in Europe. There is freedom of religion. There are mosques, and people are free to follow Islam. But truth is, that in day to day society, there is a problem of discrimination and racism...

Not getting a job is not inherently from being Muslim at all I would believe. Not knowing the language enough is the big one or not having enough education in the field one applied in has everything to do with it. If one is integrated well into the country he/she fled or immigrated to I don't believe there is systemic racial oppression/profiling when applying for jobs. At least not in Germany. Looks and behavior play a role too of course. If you try to be a shopping mall info counter clerk and go to the interview in full on burkha, that will definitely hurt chances. But so would going as any kind of "outward showing" religious believer, no matter if it is orthodox Jew or something else.

There is a real correlation between being deeply religious (but not the "mainline one" in your mother country), and how that will cause one to close off from the greater society and push to form a parallel society. It is up to the individuals to break out of this vicious circle of uneducation though. I don't think it is unreasonable for a society to demand that people live by its rules when they immigrate to it. And if these rules stem from a long history of continued secularization then of course that clashes with being deeply religious with a want for law to be sorted out via a "holy" text written thousands of years ago in another part of the world.

 

[ComputerMKII]

A former lawyer for Cherif Kouachi, has denied that the suspect is an extremist, writes Jonathan Bucks.

Speaking to BFMTV Vincent Ollivier, said of Kouachi:

When he was younger he had no professional or personal projects in his life. After being jailed in 2008 he became less juvenile, but I would not say he was a religious extremist. During his trial he never spoke of any extremist ideals.

For me it is very difficult to make a connection between the young man, who was almost a child, that I knew and the professional gunman that I saw yesterday. The Cherif Kouachi that I knew does not match the person that carried out the killings yesterday.

My only advice to him is to turn himself in to French authorities.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...-arrests-in-manhunt-for-suspects-live-updates

 

[TheContact]

Following the shootings at the magazine, there appear to have been a number of revenge attacks on Muslims reported by French media, though nobody was hurt
Two shots were fired at a Muslim prayer room in the town of Port-la-Nouvelle in the southern region of Aude on Wednesday evening
A Muslim family was shot at in their car in Caromb, in the southern region of Vaucluse
Dummy grenades were thrown during the night at a mosque in Le Mans, western France
The slogan "Death to Arabs" was daubed on the door of a mosque in Poitiers, central France, during the night
A blast hit a kebab shop beside a mosque in Villefranche-sur-Saone in central France

What the fuck is wrong with these people. How does that make them any better than the terrorists.

 

[phaonaut]

shit reporting yesterday

really felt like the situation was resolved

I thought the same, I saw something posted about one of the attackers being killed and the other two captured. I guess that was all false.

 

[ComputerMKII]

An emergency physician/Charlie Hebdo columnist answered iTélé's questions. Even if you don't speak French, the emotion shown in this interview transcends language (starting at 9 min. 18)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1Z4rRZfC6I#t=558

 

[Xando]

I thought the same, I saw something posted about one of the attackers being killed and the other two captured. I guess that was all false.

Yeah that was American media (i think NBC) citing their "intelligence sources" (Probably stole shit from twitter). French Media always denied any arrests/deaths while american media went with their "sources".

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Publishing Muhammad cartoons would have been too risky, says Amol Rajan

This is so weak.

“I think it would have been too much of a risk to unilaterally decide in Britain to be the only newspaper that went ahead and published so in a sense it is true one has self-censored in a way I feel very uncomfortable with. It’s an incredibly difficult decision to make.”

I imagine every newspaper is using this reasoning, and this excuse.

“What’s happened here is a bunch of religious fanatics have tried to silence cartoonists, have tried to silence satire. I think the important thing is not just whether you should show the prophet Muhammad, but to say that those cartoonists wouldn’t be silenced,” he said.

And, in the UK, have completely suceeded apparently.

 

[Sickboy007]

An emergency physician/Charlie Hebdo columnist answered iTélé's questions. Even if you don't speak French, the emotion shown in this interview transcends language (starting at 9 min. 18)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1Z4rRZfC6I#t=558

"They were killed during a meeting discussing a conference on the fight against racism. Voila."

Heartbreaking.

 

[Scipio]

Of course they are oppressed. In Sweden there's hundreds of islamophobic crimes every year. Do you think a woman with a hijab has the same chance of getting a job as a white Christian in Europe?

And why I replied like that is because I think your statement really isn't even worth discussing, would be like saying black people aren't oppressed in US.

And there are also thousand of crimes commited by Muslims each year.

So no they are not oppressed, there is racism, but it goes both ways. The main thing is that immigrants, who happen to be Muslim, live in poverty and are poorly educated. Is that oppression? No, that's the consequence of leaving everything behind in a county 5000 km away and starting again at a new place.

I accept that there are people who discriminate others based on the fact that they are immigrants, but that's not oppression. The muslims in Israel, now that's oppression.

 

[clockpunk]

My ONE hope for the UK press lies with the next issue of Private Eye...

 

[west4th]

The newspapers in the UK not publishing the cartoons is a disgrace to journalism and western society. The terrorists have won

 

[Frodo]

I've once had to tell a white guy to not say the N word so much because it's offensive. His response:
"Why? I'm not offended by it."

I think it's irresponsible to ask newspapers to run pictures that Muslims all over deem offensive just to get back at 3 guys.

I think it is irresponsible to let ANY religious group or institution, or belief to guide what should or shouldn't be published. If we can't criticise the church or the religion, what next? Inquisition? Media should be free. No one that does not believe in Islam holds any obligation to act according to Islam laws or guidance. I criticise all religious without any fear, why should I fear to criticise Islam if I don't believe in it?

It is okay to criticise ideas. Islam is an idea. I'll criticise it as much as I want.

Unfortunately the UK is too afraid to publish the drawings. Which means (silly as that phase is), the terrorists have won here.

 

[patapuf]

There are way bigger taboos in France.

For example, It's way harder to make cartoons making fun of Jews or Israel than to make fun of muslims. This isn't the subject of the topic so i won't go any further but there's a lot of self-censorship in France. One of the historical Charlie Hebdo cartoonists had to leave the journal cause he was a big israel critic and made fun of the son of the president saying he converted to judaism to be able to marry one of the richest heiress in the country and that it was a clever move from his part. His name was Siné.

I'm well aware it exists and even if taboos' would be absent on a society level, individual people will always have subjects they won't openly mock.

I still think that the freedom of press is more important than people not being offended because a journalist wrote (or drew) something they don't like.

 

[Xando]

The attack on the female officer this morning was presumably a terrorist attack aswell.
https://twitter.com/AFP/status/553186773543956480

 

[-COOLIO-]

"They were killed during a meeting discussing a conference on the fight against racism. Voila."

Heartbreaking.

holy shit

along with the muslim police officer named ahmed who was shot, i dont think i can handle any more irony in this tragedy.

 

[chadskin]

Some impressions from around Crépy-en-Valois, posted on Twitter:

 

[UncleSporky]

You cannot just make the entire world a completely unoffensive place to everyone who lives here without sterilizing it way too much. Some people find things like stem cell research offensive to their beliefs but you know what it just may improve the lives of billions of people. The fact is people have to learn to be less offended if we are going to get along.

And there will always be assholes who just want to offend and make others feel like shit. If people let these guys offend then they have won. The only answer is that we all grow some thicker skin and learn to shrug shit off.

I would never ask for that. Are you reading that into what I've been saying?

I'm saying it's awesome when people aren't told not to mock something, but when as decent people we decide to be compassionate anyway. I think you're awesome for being that way and I try to live that way too.

 

[Xando]

Police launch house to house searches in Abbaye de Longpont, the village in France where suspects of #CharlieHebdo attack reportedly seen

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/553202594928410625

 

[ComputerMKII]

The newspapers in the UK not publishing the cartoons is a disgrace to journalism and western society. The terrorists have won

Great Britain is a huge market for newspapers and the British love to read them (more than in France, where paper is slowly dying). This is not the image of the press you want to show

Get your shit together, even Sony changed their minds and showed the Interview, eventually.

 

[LevelNth]

This is so weak.

I imagine every newspaper is using this reasoning, and this excuse.

And, in the UK, have completely suceeded apparently.

Now now, go easy. It's not so easy a choice to make when you feel you might be putting your employees lives at risk, and Charlie Hebdo has shown it's not quite 'might'.

 

[FiggyCal]

I am a catholic and I don't know one catholic priest that is a pedophile, a hipocrite or an adulterer - all are swell guys and I am not all that happy that some people automatically assosciate the gown and cross with horrible actions. But I am aware of the faults of the church institution and the scandals that affect the whole community and I am not blind to see that some priests should be condemned. I am also aware of the fact that faith as a whole might seem ridiculous and often question the building blocks of my own beliefs. And althoug (as I've said) I am not to keen on identifing all priests with pedophiles I do not feel harassed by the satire of the church in any way, because it does not attack me personally, but it is based on the real events that took place and it would be simply stupid to go to war with a cartoon that takes those events and exagerates them to make a valid point.

That's a very fair point.

But the way that Islam views imagery and the way Christianity does differ. The reactions of people from one group and another will necessarily be different. You're also, as a Catholic, not obliged to condemn every time a Catholic priest molests a child because it's understood the actions of the individual don't reflect your own personal beliefs.

 

[pulsemyne]

An emergency physician/Charlie Hebdo columnist answered iTélé's questions. Even if you don't speak French, the emotion shown in this interview transcends language (starting at 9 min. 18)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1Z4rRZfC6I#t=558

I don't understand any french but just watching the mans emotions brings the message and the feelings across.

 

[ComputerMKII]

The attack on the female officer this morning was presumably a terrorist attack aswell.
https://twitter.com/AFP/status/553186773543956480

Fucking copycats...

 

[potam]

Oh shit I had figured they knew which one they were in.

 

[Xando]

Now now, go easy. It's not so easy a choice to make when you feel you might be putting your employees lives at risk, and Charlie Hebdo has shown it's not quite 'might'.

Why did a lot of non english speaking newspaper do it then?

 

[Mimosa97]

That's very cool.

holy shit

along with the muslim police officer named ahmed who was shot, i dont think i can handle any more irony in this tragedy.

One of the killed employees was a muslim called Mustafa.

So yeah just showing that this isn't a fight between " muslims " and " the rest ". Same shit with Merah 2 years ago. The guy killed a french muslim soldier saying he was a traitor. But the media focused on the two jewish kids he killed and didn't give a fuck about the soldiers ...

 

[Irminsul]

I imagine every newspaper is using this reasoning, and this excuse.

I really don't get this especially. If you're "afraid" of being the only newspaper to show some guts, fucking talk to editorial staff of other newspapers and ask them if they would do so, too.

Also, you know, you wouldn't exactly be the first to do so. That was Charlie Hebdo. Talk about leaving one small satirical magazine alone.

I'm really glad some German newspapers reprinted the caricatures. I'm a bit wary of expecting it from every newspaper, but it's good to see.

 

[Sky Chief]

I would never ask for that. Are you reading that into what I've been saying?

I'm saying it's awesome when people aren't told not to mock something, but when as decent people we decide to be compassionate anyway. I think you're awesome for being that way and I try to live that way too.

Ah, gotcha we're on the same page

 

[Stereogatari]

Who is mocked in most caricatures of Islam? The religion itself or maybe Muhammad. Who would be mocked in a caricature of blacks? Black people themselves.

There are certain exaggerated and stereotypical Arab racial characteristics that some of these satirical drawings contain, similar to past European anti-semitic caricatures of Jews: Hooked nose, certain lip shape, dark skin, untidy beard etc. Some may interpret that detail as having a racist element to it.

 

[Osahi]

Not getting a job is not inherently from being Muslim at all I would believe. Not knowing the language enough is the big one or not having enough education in the field one applied in has everything to do with it. If one is integrated well into the country he/she fled or immigrated to I don't believe there is systemic racial oppression/profiling when applying for jobs. At least not in Germany. Looks and behavior play a role too of course. If you try to be a shopping mall info counter clerk and go to the interview in full on burkha, that will definitely hurt chances. But so would going as any kind of "outward showing" religious believer, no matter if it is orthodox Jew or something else.

There is a real correlation between being deeply religious (but not the "mainline one" in your mother country), and how that will cause one to close off from the greater society and push to form a parallel society. It is up to the individuals to break out of this vicious circle of uneducation though. I don't think it is unreasonable for a society to demand that people live by its rules when they immigrate to it. And if these rules stem from a long history of continued secularization then of course that clashes with being deeply religious with a want for law to be sorted out via a "holy" text written thousands of years ago in another part of the world.

Fair enough. As with everything, it's not black and white, and problems have many roots. But I really believe discrimination on behalve of belief or skin colour is a problem that exists, and that it is not only because of language, nihabs, or whatever...

I can really imagine muslims feeling very unwelcome and singled out. (Didn't you have big manifestations in Germany against Islam recently?)

But I don't think that's the reason why these attacks happen. They happen because of religious extremism, which was maybe able to flourish because of those problems a bit more. But I think it would have existed anyway.

 

[Dwalls]

Now now, go easy. It's not so easy a choice to make when you feel you might be putting your employees lives at risk, and Charlie Hebdo has shown it's not quite 'might'.

Surely, if they collectively decide to publish, there has to be a point where retaliation is beyond futile. If I had a twitter or facebook or anything to publish my terrible mspaint art I would, but I'll just rock my terrible avatar for now.

 

[LevelNth]

Why did a lot of non english speaking newspaper do it then?

A lot did, and a lot didn't. I understand the frustration some might have to those who didn't, but to pretend it's not a horrifically difficult choice to make is just not fair to those who made it.

 

[pulsemyne]

The newspapers in the UK not publishing the cartoons is a disgrace to journalism and western society. The terrorists have won

Yep and yet they all felt it was quite okay to hack into peoples phones and print pure lies about people. Shit heads run our press in the UK.