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[cm osi]

You are a person, not a book.

well, this is religion objective. remove critical thinking and accept truth written 2000 years ago.

do you do good deeds because you're a good person or because your book tells you?

 

[Maninthemirror]

I'm saying the attackers were muslims and acting in accordance with what they believe islam requires of them. They avenged their prophet.

So when you get lines like 'I stopped calling these people Muslim terrorists. They're about as Muslim as I am' and 'Europe has an enormous radical problem. I think ISIS is a cult. Not an Islamic cult', well, I'm going to point out the obvious fallacy.

That's how Le Pen ends up sounding like the sensible one when she says “We must not be scared of saying the words: this is a terrorist attack carried out in the name of radical Islam,”.

But is that what YOU believe from what you have read that Islam requires of them is what he is asking. Does Islam in your opinion say what the attackers believe in?

 

[kamorra]

But is that what YOU believe from what you have read Islam requires of them is what he is asking.

It's also what they thought.

 

[Trey]

It's not hard to imagine why someone devoted to religion would assume it as their identity.

 

[Klyka]

Humans have been using inflammatory tactics to spark unrest and increase support for the longest time.

Religion is a tool like basically everything in our society is a tool used by people.
Nothing ever descended down from heaven and just WAS, everything was created by humans for humans to use. Whether for good or bad (which themselves are products of man) is up to the people.

It's not the tool that is at fault,it's the one who wields it.

 

[Sickboy007]

you can but where is the truth when people say the founder built the faith on violence. if that is not the truth, that is no criticism is it?

If you don't think it's the truth, try to discuss it (preferably with independent sources), instead of saying that a guy you never met could hurt your kids.

 

[maquiladora]

So, a popular Russian 24-hour news channel with close ties to the Kremlin is running with this story :

Expert: Terrorist attack in Paris staged by US intelligence agencies

 

[Fenderputty]

I dont like he represents western people. Most people here in US and Canada respect my faith but not the radicalists

People keep saying this to you, but you don't seem to get it. People respect you and your right to a faith. They don't respect your faith. Especially in the middle of America.

 

[Arksy]

So, a popular Russian 24-hour news channel with close ties to the Kremlin is running with this story :

Expert: Terrorist attack in Paris staged by US intelligence agencies

Seriously? :/

 

[Baki]

I'm saying the attackers were muslims and acting in accordance with what they believe islam requires of them. They avenged their prophet.

So when you get lines like 'I stopped calling these people Muslim terrorists. They're about as Muslim as I am' and 'Europe has an enormous radical problem. I think ISIS is a cult. Not an Islamic cult', well, I'm going to point out the obvious fallacy.

That's how Le Pen ends up sounding like the sensible one when she says “We must not be scared of saying the words: this is a terrorist attack carried out in the name of radical Islam,”.

Aren't you the same guy that dislikes Pakistani people? Feel free to object. That's the sentiment I get from your other posts (outside this thread).

 

[Maninthemirror]

If you don't think it's the truth, try to discuss it (preferably with independent sources), instead of saying a guy you never met could hurt your kids.

I have and you know what the response is? well the terrorists think otherwise so their opinion is also valid. giving weight to terrorist opinions

People keep saying this to you, but you don't seem to get it. People respect you and your right to a faith. They don't respect your faith. Especially in the middle of America.

I think mostly south of America, the southern belt

 

[G.O.O.]

Just heard an editor on the radio bring a muslim woman to tears by asking her to dissociate from the attacks.

things are looking good

 

[Lime]

Some points based on what people are saying on the previous page:

- religion and belief are tied to identity. You can't just say "I hate your religion but I respect your person" and it can be insulting
- just because the fuckers did it in the name of Islam doesn't mean that Islam as a faith and culture is to blame.
- the wrong takeaway from these events is to further condemn and exclude Muslims by arguing that Islam is to blame. The world is far more complex than that

 

[Specialmias]

So I haven't been following this that closely as I was working on something. How did these guys escape from Paris in the first place? Given all the police and road blocking seems unlikely.

 

[kamorra]

Some points based on what people are on this page:

- religion and belief are tied to identity. You can't just say "I hate your religion but I respect your person" can be insulting
- just because the fuckers did it in the name of Islam doesn't mean that Islam as a faith and culture is to blame.
- the wrong takeaway from these events is to further condemn and exclude Muslims

You absolutely can hate religion while still respecting people. As an atheist I'm doing this 24/7.

 

[spekkeh]

They are representative of a small but significant portion of it.



It's not as convenient as real. The original outrage about the Danish cartoons was sparked by radical Imams who sneaked made up and old caricatures in order to set people off. They knew they were fake; instead, they just wanted to create a ruckus. Al-qaeda was also known to attack Russian troops back in the day from civilian positions in order to spark outrage when the Russians retaliated in the expected Russian Bear way.

Radical muslims have been used inflamatory tactics to spark unrest and increase support for the longest time.

It's definitely done to inflame the Western public and create strife. However, that these Islamists don't really have hatred for blasphemous cartoonists but that there is some hidden power ploy, reads as wishful thinking almost on the level of calling it Israeli false flags. Luckily we can all rest easy, there's not really a problem between Islamic and Western values, it's just an age old wille zur macht.

Which doesn't necessarily make it not possible mind you.

 

[marrec]

I think I can understand MITMs point to some extent. There is a lot of real islamophobia and hate alive in the world right now and that hate is directed not just toward specific aspects of islam but to the religion as a whole and the people who practice it. Knowing that, it can be hard to separate the very specific and nuanced hate of certain extreme and conservative aspects of islam from hate of the entire religion/person practicing it as a whole.

This is similar to those who are accused of being antisemitic for simply pointing out that conservative judaism is just as toxic a belief system as conservative islamism. Separating the person from the belief is, in some ways, impossible for those deeply attached to the faith.

You absolutely can hate religion while still respecting people. As an atheist I'm doing this 24/7.

Absolutely, but it can still be insulting for those practicing the religion. Which, as an atheist myself, I completely understand.

 

[Ogimachi]

Some points based on what people are saying on the previous page:

- religion and belief are tied to identity. You can't just say "I hate your religion but I respect your person" and it can be insulting
- just because the fuckers did it in the name of Islam doesn't mean that Islam as a faith and culture is to blame.
- the wrong takeaway from these events is to further condemn and exclude Muslims

Muhammad himself executed several poets who mocked him. Are they less muslim than their own prophet, then?

 

[R.D.Blax]

Damn, it's just hit me when I just got out in a nearby bakery just now and I saw some heavy armed policeman. Seeing where and when the attack happened, I think I just barely missed them. Damn, that's scary

 

[mitheor]

A suspicious package in Nuevos Ministerios train station in Madrid, Spain

 

[Lime]

You absolutely can hate religion while still respecting people. As an atheist I'm doing this 24/7.

Sure, as concepts you can hate them, but if tell someone of faith that you hate something that defines them, then that can come across as kind of inconsiderate

 

[Funky Papa]

well sorry but I am a person adherent to my faith. thats what you call a religious person. By saying your faith is evil people directly say the way you believe and live your life as an adherent muslim person, are basing it off an evil idea. The difference between your thinking and mine is I know there is a separation of radicalists and moderates, Radicalists being new. People who say Islam is evil also assume its Holy Founder was violent thus creating an argument that Islam was built on an evil idea with a violent founder and if I am not violent, I am not following Islam as it was meant to be. Am I wrong in this?

Yes.

I hail from and live in a (still) Catholic country. Less than half a century ago, the Church and the fascist government of Franco conspired to repress and kill any form of dissent, subjugate free thinkers and instill a set of values inspired in an extremely strict interpretation of Catholicism. These days Catholics have moved from those positions (including most of the fervorous ones).

I still believe that their religion is wrong and potentially a very real source of violence, but I don't think they are necessarily bad people just because they are Catholic. I don't know them. And they are certainly not peltering me or insulting me when I French kiss my girlfriend at the bus stop, so I basically asume that most people are indeed decent enough fellows not to attack me nor warrant my hostility. I despise Catholicism for its past and many of its present deeds, but I don't generally despise Catholics because I know there are mostly an ok bunch.

The fact that you fail to understand something as simple and that you think that you are in danger because people dislike your religion shows a lot of what is wrong.

Sure, as concepts you can hate them, but if tell someone of faith that you hate something that defines them, then that can come across as kind of inconsiderate

Politeness has fuck all to do with wanting to hurt nobody. As a matter of fact, most atheist don't go on mocking religious people on their daily lives. They just move with the flow, just like pretty much everybody else.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Muhammad himself executed several poets who mocked him. Are they less muslim than their own prophet, then?

and the poets were just poets eh. read up history.

 

[Specialmias]

I think mostly south of America, the southern belt

Sadly I wouldn't agree as a Pennsylvanian who travels to the New England area a lot I can tell you outside of Philadelphia and most places outside of cities you're going to get "DEM MOOSLIMS GUNNA GIT R GUNS"

 

[Iceternal]

Well, congrats for liking a guy who thinks that police ethnic profiling is a good thing, that "gay ideology" is turning men into women and is a rabid anti-feminist.

Edit: whoa, what the hell is going on here.

Thanks for congratulating me for thinking we need a responsible immigration policy instead of replacing the native french population.

 

[gutter_trash]

So, a popular Russian 24-hour news channel with close ties to the Kremlin is running with this story :

Expert: Terrorist attack in Paris staged by US intelligence agencies

not surprising considering Russia's stance on Freedom of the Press

 

[Mass_Pincup]

People keep saying this to you, but you don't seem to get it. People respect you and your right to a faith. They don't respect your faith. Especially in the middle of America.

It's really not that hard to see why he is offended. It's like saying you're country is a piece of shit but I respect you and you're right to live there. If someone said that about my country/religion/whatever I would be pissed too.

 

[BlazingDarkness]

I am my belief. now what do you say. Hate the radical thoughts. not my belief which is directly tied to me and the way I live

I say no, no you're not.

Some points based on what people are saying on the previous page:

- religion and belief are tied to identity. You can't just say "I hate your religion but I respect your person" and it can be insulting

Yes I can say that. Any rational person can separate a person's religious belief from their identity.

 

[victreeb3l]

They are suspected of robbing a gas station, they are closing in on them.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30721677

Spiegel reported they are closing in on them and are searching a 20 square kilometre area. Going from house to house, searching cars etc. Apparently one was seen in Corcys earlier today.

edit: https://twitter.com/MaximeGoldbaum has some pictures of special forces searching Corcys.

Seems likely. There have been conflicting reports about it. The police has been searching several smaller cities that are between Paris and Reims (the city where yesterday's operation occured). Either the guys are expected to be somewhere in the area, or the police is trying to disrupt their "network".

Thanks guys. Do they have footage from the gas station? Also heard a rumor they shot and killed another cop last night. Was that true?

French special forces look badass.

 

[Zaph]

I'm confused, are you saying that the attackers are representative of Islam?

Previous history indicates yes he is

Like it or not, the good and bad represent all religions, not just Islam. So yes, you represent Islam, as do the Charlie Hebdo attackers.

You can't blame people for being a bit sick of this "Not representative of Islam" nonsense when there has been study after study, and poll after poll, showing that yes, seeds planted in moderate Islam can lead to radicalisation (especially with impressionable young men) as well as being in direct conflict with some important western values.

 

[Chaplain]

I am surprised the phobia driven Sam Harris has taken this long to respond

He did say something yesterday, but Sam used a Christopher Hitchens lecture to express his view:

If you're wondering what Hitch would have said about recent events, you need not. He said it well enough for all time:

Christopher Hitchens: The Fifth Annual Arthur Miller Freedom to Write Lecture

 

[The Technomancer]

I said this in another thread yesterday but there is a world of difference between acknowledging that "Islam has problems" and making the statement that "Islam is a problem". The former is certainly true. The latter is certainly not.

 

[Baki]

Muhammad himself executed several poets who mocked him. Are they less muslim than their own prophet, then?

Way to leave out the narratives behind those incidents. But then that detracts from narrative you are trying to build.

 

[Rush_Khan]

Muhammad himself executed several poets who mocked him. Are they less muslim than their own prophet, then?

Is there a source for this?

 

[Edwards_Omatic]

So, a popular Russian 24-hour news channel with close ties to the Kremlin is running with this story :

Expert: Terrorist attack in Paris staged by US intelligence agencies

Don't give bullshit like this the attention it wants.

 

[Xando]

Thanks guys. Do they have footage from the gas station? Also heard a rumor they shot and killed another cop last night. Was that true?

French special forces look badass.

There was a officer killed this morning by another attacker with terrorist motive.

 

[FartOfWar]

I dont like he represents western people. Most people here in US and Canada respect my faith but not the radicalists

Respecting your faith in a Western democracy simply means respecting your right to believe what you want and practice your faith how you want, provided you aren't infringing on the rights of others. It does not assume that one must think a faith -- Christianity, Mormonism, Scientology, etc. -- is itself in any way admirable or free from fault. I can respect your faith and criticize it without contradiction. I can also criticize tenets of your faith or even the notion of faith itself without "hating" adherents of that faith.

 

[Alx]

Also heard a rumor they shot and killed another cop last night. Was that true?

A city policewoman had been shot dead this morning in the south of Paris. It hasn't been confirmed if it is related to the Charlie Hebdo murderers though.

 

[spekkeh]

The Telegraph is a Right leaning paper.

That doesn't make it not a convenient theory for some people on the left.

 

[Guy.brush]

Oh how I wish people would stop flocking to associate with a flag or united cause or religion or cult.
Be strong and educated individuals and the rest like a positive outlook towards life, the universe and the rest comes automatically.
Don't give up on the complexity of the world and retreat to a childlike mental state of succumbing to weird rules some blokes declared holy 2000 years ago as a means to build their power structure.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Yes.

I hail from and live in a (still) Catholic country. Less than half century ago, the Church and the fascist government of Franco conspired to repress and kill any form of dissent, subjugate free thinkers and instill a set of values inspired in an extremely strict interpretation of Catholicism. These days Catholics have moved from those positions (including most of the fervorous ones).

I still believe that their religion is wrong and potentially a very real source of violence, but I don't think they are necessarily bad people just because they are Catholic. I don't know them. And they are certainly not peltering me or insulting me when I French kiss my girlfriend at the bus stop, so I basically asume that most people are indeed decent enough fellows not to attack me nor warrant my hostility.

The fact that you fail to understand something as simple and that you think that you are in danger because people dislike your religion shows a lot of what is wrong.

My wife and I have been harassed by people walking by in a number of ocassions in the past 7 years. until you have walked in my shoes, you don't know anything what we have to deal with and the looks we get.

We have constantly gotten comments like "since when did Terrorists come to this town" while we are walking by. you can talk from your position and I am talking from mine. Talk to a muslim and be his friend and you will know the feeling

I say no, no you're not.



Yes I can say that. Any rational person can separate a person's religious belief from their identity.

well I am. cant change that

 

[Blair]

well of course only Islamophobes (people afraid of Islam and thus adherent muslims like me) would say that. I wouldnt let my kid near your home if we were neighbours with that attitude.

In fact I would be afraid you would hurt my family if we walked in the same neighborhood as you. yikes. why dont you stop hating my belief and respect muslims who want no violence

just gonna keep rolling after this meltdown huh

 

[Lime]

The fact that you fail to understand something as simple and that you think that you are in danger because people dislike your religion shows a lot of what is wrong.

Have you been following the last 14 years since 9/11? Don't you think that Muslims in the West might feel that they are in danger because people dislike their religion? Have you seen what has happened in the last 24 hours to mosques and Muslims in France?

just gonna keep rolling after this meltdown huh

You need to understand what it feels like to be a Muslim in this day and age, and especially after what happened yesterday and how people are going to react. Just look at the previous thread for evidence. I would be paranoid too and perhaps make too quick posts like that, wouldn't you?

 

[Panzon]

When I see someone hate my belief and thus me, I am afraid this person could hurt me. its a natural instinct when you encounter hate.

Woops quoted the wrong post

 

[spekkeh]

Way to leave out the narratives behind those incidents. But then that detracts from narrative you are trying to build.

Hardly.

 

[Fenderputty]

I agree that's it important to be united. Publishing the cartoons will not do that.

I think you're pretty alone on this so I"ll just agree to disagree.

 

[Stereogatari]

Some points based on what people are saying on the previous page:

- religion and belief are tied to identity. You can't just say "I hate your religion but I respect your person" and it can be insulting
- just because the fuckers did it in the name of Islam doesn't mean that Islam as a faith and culture is to blame.
- the wrong takeaway from these events is to further condemn and exclude Muslims by arguing that Islam is to blame. The world is far more complex than that

You can hate a religion without being mean to a person. A religion is a collection of speculative and unscientific ideas about the universe.

You are right that Islam as a faith and culture isn't to blame, since if killing blasphemers was an integral duty of Muslims then it'd be more widespread. That is obvious, but it's still clear that the umbrella of Islam has more blood under it than other faiths in this current period of history. So we should investigate why Islam has this problem moreso than other faiths, and there are geopolitical reasons.

And yes the world is far more complex than that, agreed. For example I doubt these guys had the best upbringing or grew up in the best neighbourhoods in the world. A portion of their dialogue suggests they were acting upon Algerian nationalist feelings in addition to Islamic ones. etc.

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

Arabic News sources are reporting Two Tunisian Journalists were executed by ISIS in Libya.

 

[Arksy]

Way to leave out the narratives behind those incidents. But then that detracts from narrative you are trying to build.

What possible excuse could there be for executing poets?

 

[SmokyDave]

But is that what YOU believe from what you have read that Islam requires of them is what he is asking. Does Islam in your opinion say what the attackers believe in?

My opinions and beliefs on islam don't matter a jot. If I had to give you the cliffnotes version, I'd say that nobody understands islam (especially those that profess to do so) and as such it's infuriating that so many lives are being lost as the religion is dragged kicking and screaming into modernity.

Aren't you the same guy that dislikes Pakistani people? Feel free to object. That's the sentiment I get from your other posts (outside this thread).

U Wot M8?

I'm used to 'you hate muslims' because I'm openly critical of islam, but that's a new one.