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Terrorist attack at Charlie Hebdo magazine. 12 dead. 11 wounded.
- Thread starter bishoptl
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People love to associate with other like minded people.
It's kind of a fundamental attribute of the human condition.
- Having someone be completely defined by their faith is creepy to me. If this colors your every interaction with people, then I don't know what to think.
- So is Islam (as a whole) completely free of blame here? Are these people not some form of Muslim, and do they not believe that they are rightful in their own version of Islam? If your answers to these questions are yes, then you can not completely separate that from a conversation about Islam.
- The situation is indeed complex, and your average Muslim should not necessarily be held accountable, but the faith should be looked at with a critical eye, and its beliefs that are against human rights should be considered especially. And this doesn't just apply to Islam but all faiths.
Pretty much every moderate Muslim I've met is some sort of homophobe or misogynist as a result of their beliefs. As a person who is brought up with such an indoctrination they really have never known any other choice in their life. I used to be like that when I was indoctrinated as a Muslim. But without challenging the ideology you can't make people like me realize that this is not the only way of life. You don't have to be this way.
Maninthemirror
Banned
Yes you are right. terrorists don't understand Islam. but most muslims do. Which is why terrorists dont care who they kill, muslim or otherwise.
They were allied with the Quraish who were fighting the Muslims.
victreeb3l
Member
I agree with a lot of what youre saying but this isnt necessarily true. Muslims get harassed often, especially women. Growing up in NYC and going to public schools post 9/11 has been pretty tough at times for me.
Hell, even Sikhs get harassed for looking like muslims, and they have nothing to do with any of this.
Ugh thats awful. I hope there arent any more of these kinds of copycat attacks.
No. That is not how the world works. A lot of people define their identity through their religion. Saying you hate their religion obviously implicates their personality.
For the weaker in spirit, it's a short jump from "I hate your religion" to "I don't think you have the right to practice this hated religion" or even "I hate you". Obviously those of us posting here aren't so weak of spirit but we're a small and certainly more liberal microcosm of the rest of the world.
What's funny about this is that even Charlie Hebdo had covers with caricatures of Jews on it.Saw it in my FB feed.
I don't get this. Couldn't you be progressive and have a positive outlook towards life while also considering what will happen in the afterlife and therefore perform even more good deeds? No one knows what happens in the afterlife, that's where faith comes from. I'm of the opinion that faith is functional in a progressive society.
Maninthemirror
Banned
Of Moses?
Fenderputty
Banned
What people made this point?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I mean, you can't really claim they understand it any better or worse than any other adherent. All you can do is denounce them and try to eliminate that kind of thinking in your own communities
I mean, we're talking on a forum where people will feel personally insulted if you comment on their choice of video game system
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
gutter_trash
Banned
Saw it in my FB feed.
he should watch more South Park
That's totally the problem of the offended though.
People criticize Islam and say muslims are a problem on a daily basis on French TV. So what Lepen said isn't mind-blowing, it was way softer than her usual speech. People go even as far as saying that the problem is not radical islam but just islam. There are big shots in Marine Lepen's political party who talk about sending some of the 3rd and 4th generation muslims to where their ancestors came from. And these are politicians who were elected at the european parliament.
Now she's saying that she wants to unite all patriots and asks french muslims to rally her to save France from the tyranny of the EU. But the vast majority of her representants and partisans don't want anything to do with muslims or africans in general.
Political correctness isn't at the same level in France as in english speaking countries or scandinavian countries. Most intellectuals and journalists talk against communitarianism and how the republic doesn't recognize communities but only one bloc of people : the French people. You can check what one of our most famous polemists, who get invited in all big channels, said to an italian newspaper a few week ago. His name is Eric Zemmour. He said basically that if you looked at our History, you can see that we might end up one day deporting millions of muslim french citizens. He used to be part of two tv shows, a radio show and a journalist at a right wing newspaper. He was fired from only one of the tv shows and got to keep his other jobs and yet all politicians but the left wing defended him saying it was his freedom of expression and that his words were misunderstood. And a vast majority of the french population supported him saying he was the victim of political correctness etc... So that's how it works in French. People get to say shit about foreigners, muslims etc... And then they play the victim card
I'm not saying he should have been fired, i'm against that. But i don't like people who keep targeting the same community day after day and then play the victim card even though they are invited everywhere, sell hundreds of thousands of books and are acclaimed as " free thinkers ". He can say as much shit as he wants, and there's some truth to what he says and he can be very clever when he talks about other subjects but the fact that he's got such radical views about multiculturalism, that he distorts numbers to help spread his ideas etc... That i don't like.
What's double funny is that the Charlie Hebdo jewish caricature didn't feature any of the negative stereotypical caricatures normally associated with antisemitism. In fact, on the cover that featured a Jew, Muslim, and Christian, they all had the exact same features.
Double standards indeed.
Are anti semite cartoons actually banned or censored? Because if not then this is just reprensenting public opinion (and that's also arguable) and has nothing to do with freedom of speechSaw it in my FB feed.
Fenderputty
Banned
So what?
If you frame it as such..
I don't suppose there is a point in discussing whether Muhammad did actually kill poets who mocked him. I'm going to guess you already know the counter arguments.
gutter_trash
Banned
Maninthemirror
Banned
well I can. I dont give any weight to the religious opinion of radicals nor should anyone, unless they want that opinion to have weight
I'm not sure what you asking. My answer was to a comic which specifically made a point about caricatures of Jews.
Cool, but then people knowingly saying hurtful stuff are inconsiderate.
Same goes for you.
You need to understand how when a black person disagrees with you it doesn't make them a uncle tom. Must be fun being an unbannable racist.
Very rude. A religion is generally more than adherence to scripture.
It's a person's moral compass, their support system, the driving force of their life, their community, their passion.
What is a person but the sum of their beliefs shaped by life experiences?
True, but one would think that after more than 2000 years of civilization, killing each other with the pretext of personal beliefs in almighty beigns would be nothing but a depressive joke when looked back at it. I'm pretty sure humans 200 years from now (or earlier) will effectively look at it that way and wonder how we didn't go extinct, being the absolute crap species we currently are. That, of course, if we don't become extinct, which we will if we don't stop indoctrinating kids with old-fashioned jive created by people from centuries ago who lived in a completely different world and that's only been good to make us fight each other.
Problem is, just insinuating that every religion needs to dissapear for the good of humanity will bring you loads of insults and accusations of bigotry, hate and racism even. (hell, I'm probably getting banned for saying it). Because dude, respect other beliefs, even if that means giving up the most precious right of our time, the freedom of speech.
Stereogatari
Banned
Faith should be as private as possible and not interfere with any academic or political fields. Eg. A Muslim biologist that believes the literal Quranic view of the universe needs to accept evolution as part of his work. He may doubt it internally, but when it comes to the academics he has to accept its validity. Otherwise all hell breaks loose if we can't unify our understanding of scientific endeavours.
In the words of Dawkins: "Science replaces private prejudice, with publicly verifiable evidence."
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
So...often people like to try and not be inconsiderate? If I can talk about someone's faith with them without insulting them, even if I think their faith is nonsense, I usually will
Maninthemirror
Banned
But Islam does say evolution is real and is guided not by chance but by God...but the point is. Evolution does exist as per the faith
I think one of the main problems I have (maybe others) with the denouncement of these attacks is that religious leaders in Islam always couch their denouncements with "These men are not followers of Islam or the prophet" which, to be frank, is bullshit and helps to further blind muslims to the point, which is that there is a radical and violent minority in the religion.
It's great to see a Gamergater here! Thanks for showing your colors and congratulations on the Fail of the Year award.
BlazingDarkness
Member
It doesn't in the slightest imply that.
No one would care.
Sure feel free to spent some of your time in this - what most evidence suggests is the only - life and try to secure an afterlife. But stay open to have your views challenged and don't be set in your ways from childhood on and run through the world with blinders on.
Religion strifes when people are afraid, like being afraid of death. People are afraid more when they know less. Strife to know more.
That wikiislam page is perfect, but I'm sure maninthemirror has a valid reason for the murder of all 43 victims, including a dozen poets.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
That is both awful and shameful. The fact that this kind of hate spills to Sikhs show how irrational it is.
At the same time, one must understand that just like most Muslims are not murderous beasts, most non-Muslims are not wishing harm to them. If that were the case, there wouldn't be any Muslims in much of the Western world.
We need to be more rational and look past our own biases, may they be forced onto us or born out of blind faith. We had a poster here who just said that he wouldn't allow his kid to be close to a fellow gafffer's home. Out of fear. Of somebody who doesn't even know. That's fucking paranoid if not downright reprehensible.
fixedpoint
Member
Maninthemirror
Banned
muslims intertwine their faith with themselves as people. so yes it does.
Glad we got that out of the way, now I can go on ignoring your opinions
I'd be interested to see what your own personal thoughts are on this particular incident. Do you think what happened was justifiable?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Are you denying that for many religious adherents their faith is very much a part of their personal identity? I mean we can argue all day that maybe it shouldn't, but it kind of is
When religion is personal and you identify a lot with it. Then yes, obviously you get hurt if someone tells you that they hate your religion and the things it stands for.
Maninthemirror
Banned
Are you sure you are not a relative descendents to any of them? how do you know they were victims?
Baki
Member
I won't go into specific detail. But in some scenarios, the poets were doing a call to arms against the Muslims (after battle) during a time where their position was weak and the call to arms could've lead to further instability (through battles). This was relatively early on in history of Muslims.
Not to mention, they were allied with a tribe (quraish) who were persecuting Muslims. So there's any number of reasons why they were executed.
As to whether this is justified, everyone can make their own decision on that. I'd just think it's better to not misrepresent what happened.
Usually very critical of Pakistani in anti UK immigration threads. So I just assumed you were racist. Which was a shame, I was a fan of your vita love. I could be (and hopefully am) wrong.
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