Support NeoGAF

[Stereogatari]

But Islam does say evolution is real and is guided not by chance but by God...but the point is. Evolution does exist as per the faith

Islam doesn't have a unitary authority, but most Muslims I know reject evolution. But that's beyond the point, as I said the Muslim Scientist in my example takes the Quran's creation story literally.

 

[BlazingDarkness]

Cool, but then people knowingly saying hurtful stuff are inconsiderate.

And I believe a religion that claims homosexuality to be a sin (thus hurtful to me) is also inconsiderate. But I respect a person's right to believe that.

Very rude. A religion is generally more than adherence to scripture.

It's a person's moral compass, their support system, the driving force of their life, their community, their passion.

What is a person but the sum of their beliefs shaped by life experiences?

I'd argue that the words 'religion' and 'beliefs' are entirely redundant in your post.

 

[Butts-a-plenty]

ah, the jewbilee

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Thanks for congratulating me for thinking we need a responsible immigration policy instead of replacing the native french population.

How is the native french population is replaced exactly?

 

[Ashes]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'Asma'_bint_Marwan

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2006/03/muhammads_dead_poets_society.html

Is Arlandson reliable?

Anyway, here's a rebuttal: http://www.answering-christianity.com/umar/dead_poets_rebuttal.htm

 

[DECK'ARD]

It's great to see a Gamergater here! Thanks for showing your colors and congratulations on the Fail of the Year award.

Constructive.

I'd say the fail of the year so far was you posting and agreeing with an article that branded one of the victims of this a 'racist asshole' in the same week the magazine attacked Islamophobia.

 

[Zamorro]

Is there a source for this?

List of expeditions of Muhammad

It's the expedition numbers number 10, 11 and 19.

It looks like some of these poets were hindering Muhammad in other ways too. The first one was also provoking others to attack Muhammad.

The poet named Abu Afak however, was just an old guy writing some poetry upon which Muhammad alledgedly said "Who will deal with this rascal for me?" and some follower killed the guy for him.

Anyway, here's a rebuttal: http://www.answering-christianity.com/umar/dead_poets_rebuttal.htm

These wikipedia pages seem to be very well sourced. This account also appears in Muhammad's first biography. But these events happened so long ago that you can pick and choose the events that suit you and put a person in the best light possible I guess.

 

[Arksy]

Are you sure you are not a relative descendents to any of them? how do you know they were victims?

Because they kill a blind Jew for throwing dust in his face. Sounds pretty extreme. I don't know the specifics obviously but that list looks insane.

 

[Maninthemirror]

And I believe a religion that claims homosexuality to be a sin (thus hurtful to me) is also inconsiderate. But I respect a person's right to believe that.

Has a Muslim here on GAF told you that your homosexuality is wrong but you are good?

 

[Palette Swap]

Thanks for congratulating me for thinking we need a responsible immigration policy instead of replacing the native french population.

I'm just saying that you're coming in favor of a far right ideologue who's never hidden how much he hates pretty much every possible minority. I think it's tasteless when the very victims of this event often derided and ridiculed how hateful and petty he was.

"Replacing the native French population", now you're just regurgitating Front National talking points.

 

[Lime]

We had a poster here who just said that he wouldn't allow his kid to be close to a fellow gafffer's home. Out of fear. Of somebody who doesn't even know. That's fucking paranoid if not downright reprehensible.

Maybe that is because of the climate that has been festering since 9/11? How is it reprehensible to be paranoid of other people who don't like Islam when the persecution and stigmatization of Muslims have been fucking terrible the last 14 years?

 

[Maninthemirror]

Because they kill a blind Jew for throwing dust in his face. Sounds justified.

Mohammed suspects someone of being a spy, you know, no real evidence presented, just suspects. The dude is then run down and killed.

Another for mocking him.

Sounds like a swell guy.

keep taking in orientalists rewriting of history and we know where Sam harris gets his information from. The odd thing is, Muslim sources show what was done which resulted in violence which resulted in deaths but Muslims OWN history is disavowed but the new created history from people who had no historical knowledge from people there is accepted because that is the ONLY way to support an argument against the religious founder.

 

[CrunchyB]

Sounds like a swell guy.

He also owned a flying donkey. That's pretty cool.

 

[mario_O]

paranoia kicking in..

 

[Arksy]

keep taking in orientalists rewriting of history and we know where Sam harris gets his information from. The odd thing is, Muslim sources show what was done which resulted in violence which resulted in deaths but Muslims OWN history is disavowed but the new created history is accepted because that is the ONLY way to support an argument against the religious founder.

I'm confused, are you saying that the source is incorrect?

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'Asma'_bint_Marwan

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2006/03/muhammads_dead_poets_society.html

The sources on the poets that claimes that are weak based on the system that was placed back then to segregate the true from the fake.

After the Prophet death the Muslim community fell in chaos especially that it stretched crossed multiple countries and everyone started claiming stuff, this pushed some scholars to document everything what's true and false and then placed a system to classify each claim.

If someone have read the Prophet History they would've came across occasions that are far worse than these claimed Poets that criticized him in some included physical harm or even killing his followers. Logically how can a person who claimed new ideologies and was prosecuted with his followers to have the freedom to teach and speak to end up doing the opposite.

 

[RM8]

Has a Muslim here on GAF told you that your homosexuality is wrong but you are good?

I recall a SpongeBob guy saying gays (and non Muslims as a whole) were "dirty", for what is worth.

 

[Maninthemirror]

I recall a SpongeBob guy saying gays (and non Muslims as a whole) were "dirty", for what is worth.

So 1 and he was banned right?

 

[BlazingDarkness]

Has a Muslim here on GAF told you that your homosexuality is wrong but you are good?

Not on GAF, as I generally avoid the topic of religion, but yes, there has been occasions where that has happened. In turn, I would respond that their belief is wrong but they are good.

 

[Kup]

Has a Muslim here on GAF told you that your homosexuality is wrong but you are good?

Is this all still going on? I'm here for updates on this tragedy, not an argument. Come on.

 

[Specialmias]

I recall a SpongeBob guy saying gays (and non Muslims as a whole) were "dirty", for what is worth.

I tend to think those man loving men smell rather nice. It's where I learned about Polo black, great stuff, ladies love it.

 

[FartOfWar]

No. That is not how the world works. A lot of people define their identity through their religion. Saying you hate their religion obviously implicates their personality.

Say a religion contains abhorrent doctrine (e.g. Christianity), or doctrine that is interpreted in an abhorrent way (since texts are indeterminate and assigning meaning is an interpretive act). Your fear of offending outright prevents you from criticizing Christianity? When a specific interpretive community maintains scripture says that women should submit to their husbands, etc? Bad beliefs are exempt from critique provided they're beneath the magical umbrella of religion?

 

[Lime]

Constructive.

How else would you have me address that Gamergate bullshit that's built on lies and misinformation?

I'd say the fail of the year so far was you posting and agreeing with an article that branded one of the victims of this a 'racist asshole' in the same week the magazine attacked Islamophobia.

The article wasn't about victim-blaming, it was about how it is possible to not support the racist/Islamophobic pictures while still condemning the murders. It was supposed to nuance the discussion on freedom of speech, not put fuel on the fire. I'm sorry if it came across differently, but as I explained yesterday, the point of the article was different than what you've taken it as.

 

[victreeb3l]

That is both awful and shameful. The fact that this kind of hate spills to Sikhs show how irrational it is.

At the same time, one must understand that just like most Muslims are not murderous beasts, most non-Muslims are not wishing harm to them. If that were the case, there wouldn't be any Muslims in much of the Western world.

We need to be more rational and look past our own biases, may they be forced onto us or born out of blind faith. We had a poster here who just said that he wouldn't feel safe walking his kid next to fellow gafffer's home. That's fucking paranoid if not downright reprehensible.

Thats true. Being overly paranoid might be too much but I can understand if someone feels they need to stay a bit more alert.

 

[kamorra]

So 1 and he was banned right?

Why did you even ask if this is your answer?

 

[iMax]

Saw it in my FB feed.

 

[liger05]

I'd be interested to see what your own personal thoughts are on this particular incident. Do you think what happened was justifiable?

Not at all. I don't agree with cartoons but don't think people should be taking the law into there own hands and killing those responsible.

 

[Klyka]

How the fuck are you people arguing over events that supposedly happened such and such over a thousand years ago and also managed to bring fucking GAMERGATE into this thread????

 

[Maninthemirror]

I'm confused, are you saying that the source is incorrect?

Yes. Read from source of people whose story was actually passed down from people THERE in those days

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Life-of-Muhammad.pdf

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Seal-of-Prophets.pdf

 

[The Technomancer]

Say a religion contains abhorrent doctrine (e.g. Christianity), or doctrine that is interpreted in an abhorrent way (since texts are indeterminate and assigning meaning is an interpretive act). Your fear of offending outright prevents you from criticizing Christianity? When a specific interpretive community maintains it says that women should submit to their husbands, etc. Bad beliefs are exempt from critique provided they're beneath the magical umbrella of religion?

No, I don't think they're saying anything like that. Just that people shouldn't be surprised when people of faith respond to that as if its a personal criticism, and its counterproductive to just counter with "well its just your religion get over it!" That isn't useful

 

[Fenderputty]

So...often people like to try and not be inconsiderate? If I can talk about someone's faith with them without insulting them, even if I think their faith is nonsense, I usually will

Right and most people will try an be considerate. But we're talking about free speech and the difference between respect for the person and the religion.

It's not disrespectful to say that Islam, like any religion can be used to insight violence. That even though there's plenty of peaceful interpretations there's some pretty fucked up ones out there and that the ancient text is vague and ambiguous enough to have continued fucked up interpretations.

What I said is offensive to them personally. They're taking the above as a personal attack and that's bullshit.

 

[Arksy]

Yes. Read from source of people whose story was actually passed down from people THERE in those days

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Life-of-Muhammad.pdf

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Seal-of-Prophets.pdf

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[spekkeh]

The sources on the poets that claimes that are weak based on the system that was placed back then to segregate the true from the fake.

After the Prophet death the Muslim community fell in chaos especially that it stretched crossed multiple countries and everyone started claiming stuff, this pushed some scholars to document everything what's true and false and then placed a system to classify each claim.

If someone have read the Prophet History they would've came across occasions that are far worse than these claimed Poets that criticized him in some included physical harm or even killing his followers. Logically how can a person who claimed new ideologies and was prosecuted with his followers to have the freedom to teach and speak to end up doing the opposite.

Ah yes cognitive dissonance. The prophet is good so killing poets must somehow be good.

 

[Trey]

Say a religion contains abhorrent doctrine (e.g. Christianity), or doctrine that is interpreted in an abhorrent way (since texts are indeterminate and assigning meaning is an interpretive act). Your fear of offending outright prevents you from criticizing Christianity? When a specific interpretive community maintains scripture says that women should submit to their husbands, etc? Bad beliefs are exempt from critique provided they're beneath the magical umbrella of religion?

No. You can be critical of religion. But you'll probably offend that religion's followers.

 

[Funky Papa]

Maybe that is because of the climate that has been festering since 9/11? How is it reprehensible to be paranoid of other people who don't like Islam when the persecution and stigmatization of Muslims have been fucking terrible the last 14 years?

Most Muslims in the Western world get by and carry on with their lives, working, eating and living next to non-believers. Some of them face unwarranted difficulties due to their race and beliefs, but in the end most of them get along well enough to keep society functioning and making situations such as hate attacks outrageous events.

Unless he lives in some absurdly racist part of the country, the kind where the average person won't give him you hour, he has very little to fear from strangers. It's paranoid. Like me bolting out from a Catholic church because I fear Cristo Rey militants.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Can we please get back to the topic.

 

[marrec]

No, I don't think they're saying anything like that. Just that people shouldn't be surprised when people of faith respond to that as if its a personal criticism, and its counterproductive to just counter with "well its just your religion get over it!"

Yea, I think this is important. We shouldn't be surprised when an adherent of islam is offended by our disliking or hating of islam. The last thing we need to do at that point is try to convince them to not be offended. Seems counter-productive.

 

[Baki]

Ah yes cognitive dissonance. The prophet is good so killing poets must somehow be good.

He didn't say that. Lol try reading what he said.

He said the sources posted are unreliable and weak.

 

[despire]

How is the native french population is replaced exactly?

Muslim population grows much faster than the original population with no slowdown in the horizon. Original population growth rate is slow and will eventually turn to decline. Original population will diminish while the previous minority will one day become majority. It's basic math.


Edited out the bullshit.

 

[Kup]

Can we please get back to the topic.

There will probably be a new thread in the morning, like today.

 

[Ashes]

That doesn't make it not a convenient theory for some people on the left.

Are you thinking of specific people here, because if it's a convenient theory for the left coming from a right wing paper, it appears to be simply a conveniant theory. So why implicate political biases?

 

[kamorra]

Muslim population grows much faster than the original population with no slowdown in the horizon. Original population growth rate is slow and will eventually turn to decline. Original population will diminish while the previous minority will one day become majority. It's basic math.

It's been predicted by experts that France and Germanu will be muslim countries in forty years. Think about that.

Ok, now this is fear mongering bullshit. This thread needs to get back on track.

 

[Guileless]

Are you denying that for many religious adherents their faith is very much a part of their personal identity? I mean we can argue all day that maybe it shouldn't, but it kind of is

It certainly is, and this gets at the communication problem between the sides. I think some people believe our ancestors woke up one day and invented the Enlightenment out of whole cloth and said "no more irrationality" and that was it and why can't everyone else do that? In reality, it developed out of Christianity over time and as a reaction to the religious wars caused by the Reformation. It is a historical anomaly and weird to just about all other people, especially adherents to other faiths. Fashionable atheism common on the internet is too reductive to acknowledge this.

 

[RustyNails]

Ah yes cognitive dissonance. The prophet is good so killing poets must somehow be good.

Read again what he said instead of waiting at the slightest to jump to your foregone conclusions.

 

[Xando]

How the fuck are you people arguing over events that supposedly happened such and such over a thousand years ago and also managed to bring fucking GAMERGATE into this thread????

I guess bish will come in soon and close this thread like the other.

 

[Kinyou]

Muslim population grows much faster than the original population with no slowdown in the horizon. Original population growth rate is slow and will eventually turn to decline. Original population will diminish while the previous minority will one day become majority. It's basic math.

It's been predicted by experts that France and Germanu will be muslim countries in forty years. Think about that.

Part of that can actually be fixed by combating poverty. Statistics show that when the living standard rises people have less children. So if you get the minorities out of poverty their birthrates should end up similar to the original population.

 

[victreeb3l]

No, I don't think they're saying anything like that. Just that people shouldn't be surprised when people of faith respond to that as if its a personal criticism, and its counterproductive to just counter with "well its just your religion get over it!" That isn't useful

Yeah, pretty much.

I can imagine its hard for someone to who isnt religious to understand. If you grow up with it, it becomes a part of your identity. Its not like a shirt you can just take off when you feel like it.

 

[Funky Papa]

Can we please get back to the topic.

Fine by me.

 

[Lime]

And I believe a religion that claims homosexuality to be a sin (thus hurtful to me) is also inconsiderate. But I respect a person's right to believe that.

Because not everyone of that belief thinks homosexuality is a sin. And perhaps there are other aspects of that religion that are positive and worthy of consideration to take into account.

Say a religion contains abhorrent doctrine (e.g. Christianity), or doctrine that is interpreted in an abhorrent way (since texts are indeterminate and assigning meaning is an interpretive act). Your fear of offending outright prevents you from criticizing Christianity? When a specific interpretive community maintains scripture says that women should submit to their husbands, etc? Bad beliefs are exempt from critique provided they're beneath the magical umbrella of religion?

We were mostly taking point of departure in a couple of posters who said they hated Islam a couple of pages ago to someone who openly identified as Muslim.

That case is different than (hopefully respectfully) discussing homophobic elements of a certain scripture and the specific people that follow it.

How the fuck are you people arguing over events that supposedly happened such and such over a thousand years ago and also managed to bring fucking GAMERGATE into this thread????

Thank the poster Blair for that bullshit.

 

[RustyNails]

Muslim population grows much faster than the original population with no slowdown in the horizon. Original population growth rate is slow and will eventually turn to decline. Original population will diminish while the previous minority will one day become majority. It's basic math.

It's been predicted by experts that France and Germanu will be muslim countries in forty years. Think about that.

OooOo all your sharia are belong to us. Resistance is futile.