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[Zarovitch]

Is this the way the Koran is written that make some people to kill for that?
Is there really some passage that ask to kill people?
If yes, how people can base their life on this book?
If yes, it's hypocrit not to denounce those passage and not asking to remove them.

 

[Xando]

whats the latest?

Police searching house by house in a village where they are supposed to be hiding.

 

[victreeb3l]

Police searching house by house in a village where they are supposed to be hiding.

I'm assuming theyre locking down all borders and airports? Theres no way they can leave the country right?

 

[FartOfWar]

Who's talking about being offended? And a gay guy being the recipient? I think you're talking about something else that I am certainly not.

.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=146523356&postcount=1550

 

[ComputerMKII]

I'm assuming theyre locking down all borders and airports? Theres no way they can leave the country right?

I don't think this is actually possible or reasonable...

 

[Xando]

I'm assuming theyre locking down all borders and airports? Theres no way they can leave the country right?

German news said they locked down every road in northeast france and created checkpoints.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Is this the way the Koran is written that make some people to kill for that?
Is there really some passage that ask to kill people?
If yes, how people can base their life on this book?
If yes, it's hypocrit not to denounce those passage and not asking to remove them.

Quran is written in a way that every chapter is connected to each other. one verse in one chapter cannot contradict another chapter. if you think it is, you are apparently only reading a verse and not the before and after verses.

Quran only asks to kill those (in defense against offense) who raise arms against Muslims with the intention of eliminating Islam, not from a city, or a nation or a continent but the world. There are no wars being fought AGAINST islam and even if a group attacks muslims religiously, they are only doing to remove them in their neighborhood not around the world in every city so that means those verses are not for modern times and were only valid at a time when Islam was small in number. In modern age, there is no person or group physically eliminating muslims around the world with the intentions of removing islam. Also that killing must stop as soon as the attackers stop attacking or say we dont want to attack. Quran says only be the defender never the attacker.

That should nullify your last 2 questions

 

[Lime]

Well, what is your point? That we shouldn't drawn those caricatures because some might find it inconsiderate?

lol no. You're way off, almost diametrically so. Go back a couple of pages and see where the conversation started. Read my edit of the post again if you're still uncertain what was being talked about.

And I think some people want to discuss events rather than multiculturalism, islamophobia, lived experiences, respect of religion, etc. so it's time to move on. PM me if you're still wondering.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Ok I'm out, some of you guys are unbelievable, this thread wasn't created to talk about your views on Islam/Koran/muslim/islamist/whatever but about the terrorists attack that happened yesterday. This thread turned to shit real fast, I hope a mod will see this soon.

 

[Alx]

I'm assuming theyre locking down all borders and airports? Theres no way they can leave the country right?

The borders are open anyway, but there will probably be controls on the roads. And there's no airport in the area, so that shouldn't be an issue.

 

[victreeb3l]

I don't think this is actually possible or reasonable...

Yeah I got ahead of myself.

German news said they locked down every road in northeast france and created checkpoints.

The borders are open anyway, but there will probably be controls on the roads. And there's no airport in the area, so that shouldn't be an issue.

Ah gotcha. Stupid social media made me think this was over with yesterday :/

 

[TheContact]

Man I hope they catch these guys

 

[Nev]

Quran only asks to kill those who raise arms against Muslims with the intention of eliminating Islam, not from a city, or a nation or a continent but the world. There are no wars being fought AGAINST islam and even if a group attacks muslims religiously, they are only doing to remove them in their neighborhood not around the world in every city so that means those verses are not for modern times and were only valid at a time when Islam was small in number. In modern age, there is no person or group physically eliminating muslims around the world with the intentions of removing islam.

That should nullify your last 2 questions

No it doesn't nullify anything. It doesn't matter what context of under what circustamces, a book that asks to kill, whatever the reason, should not be followed by anyone.

 

[Red Blaster]

My religion and my people, the Pubemancers who have long cultivated the arts of Black Forest Urethral Letting and Rectal Shouting murder anyone who leaves their home on Wednesdays without wearing Zoobas, but we also feed the poor on Thursdays. This is the positive and worthy thing that you must take into account, provided I didn't already kill you on the prior Wednesday.

was this an unused subplot for bioshock infinite

 

[DECK'ARD]

The article wasn't about victim-blaming, it was about how it is possible to not support the racist/Islamophobic pictures while still condemning the murders. It was supposed to nuance the discussion on freedom of speech, not put fuel on the fire. I'm sorry if it came across differently, but as I explained yesterday, the point of the article was different than what you've taken it as.

The cartoons he was criticising weren't racist/islamophobic, the author was just ill-informed and not understanding them or what they were attacking. Satire without context can often seem offensive, being provocative is how it makes it point.

The author was just applying a simple Tumblreqsue narrative to what he didn't understand, and insulting the victims in the process.

 

[Forsete]

I've stumbled upon this video on the internet, is this real?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV710c1dgpU

And that is NORWAY?

Eeeewwww.

 

[Frodo]

The lack of new makes me anxious. As much as I know that to help with the investigations not everything must be reported as soon as it is known, waiting for news on this is terrible.

Here is hope they catch them soon.

 

[WeAreStarStuff]

Just finished going through this entire thread...man these last few pages. I learned a long time ago not to try and have logical discussions with people about their religious views which are inherently irrational; it's best to just let it be and stay on topic.

Anyways, I’m surprised there haven’t been any breaking developments lately; at one point I thought they had the suspects cornered?

 

[Maninthemirror]

No it doesn't nullify anything. It doesn't matter what context of under what circustamces, a book that asks to kill, whatever the reason, should not be followed by anyone.

so stand and be killed? if an attacker is coming at you with a sword in the desert and you have a sword laying on the ground, you dont pick it up? you just stand there? are you OK?

Does Russia attacks US wieth the intention of eliminating it, do you expect the US to stand there and let them be destroyed before firing a shot?

 

[Sickboy007]

Live from the Roman vigil: http://video.repubblica.it/dossier/assalto-al-charlie-hebdo/strage-charlie-hebdo-la-fiaccolata-a-roma-diretta/188318/187221?ref=HREC1-1

 

[Xando]

The lack of new makes me anxious. As much as I know that to help with the investigations not everything must be reported as soon as it is known, waiting for news on this is terrible.

Here is hope they catch them soon.

Anyways, I’m surprised there haven’t been any breaking developments lately; at one point I thought they had the suspects cornered?

It's dark right now, makes me wonder if they are keeping the area under siege and wait until dawn. Hiding should be pretty easy in the woods and the last thing we need is police running into a AK/RPG ambush.

 

[Zarovitch]

Quran is written in a way that every chapter is connected to each other. one verse in one chapter cannot contradict another chapter. if you think it is, you are apparently only reading a verse and not the before and after verses.

Quran only asks to kill those (in defense against offense) who raise arms against Muslims with the intention of eliminating Islam, not from a city, or a nation or a continent but the world. There are no wars being fought AGAINST islam and even if a group attacks muslims religiously, they are only doing to remove them in their neighborhood not around the world in every city so that means those verses are not for modern times and were only valid at a time when Islam was small in number. In modern age, there is no person or group physically eliminating muslims around the world with the intentions of removing islam. Also that killing must stop as soon as the attackers stop attacking or say we dont want to attack. Quran says only be the defender never the attacker.

That should nullify your last 2 questions

ok thanks. I lot of crazy are really sensitive about what's an attack against them.

 

[Nev]

so stand and be killed? if an attacker is coming at you with a sword in the desert and you have a sword laying on the ground, you dont pick it up? you just stand there?

You said the book says muslims have to kill people who threat with eliminating Islam. That isn't the same as people who threat to end your life.

Anyhow if, as you said, that's outdated, why don't the believers of the religion change it? You can't say your religion and your creator are all about love then have something in it that explicity aks for killing another person.

 

[Maninthemirror]

You said the book says muslims have to kill people who threat with eliminating Islam. That isn't the same as people who threat to end your life.

Anyhow if, as you said, that's outdated, why don't the believers of the religion change it? You can't say your religion and your creator are all about love then have something in it that explicity aks for killing another person.

not threat. act with war to eliminate. with arms. its defending yourself with arms against arms, not defending yourself with arms against ideas.

 

[fantomena]

And that is NORWAY?

Eeeewwww.

Yeah, it's Norway. That is not a group that representents muslims though.

 

[freenudemacusers]

The cartoons he was criticising weren't racist/islamophobic, the author was just ill-informed and not understanding them or what they were attacking. Satire without context can often seem offensive, being provocative is how it makes it point.

The author was just applying a simple Tumblreqsue narrative to what he didn't understand, and insulting the victims in the process.

pretty much. 'it's not your fault, but i mean, look at what you drew'.

 

[Kinyou]

lol no. You're way off, almost diametrically so. Go back a couple of pages and see where the conversation started. Read my edit of the post again if you're still uncertain what was being talked about.

And I think some people want to discuss events rather than multiculturalism, islamophobia, lived experiences, respect of religion, etc. so it's time to move on. PM me if you're still wondering.

Ah, I see. The last time I had checked the thread you were talking about the caricatures, I assumed that was still the same discussion, my mistake.

 

[Raist]

that would be true if you believe Islam itself is violent but I am not. why by proxy as I am an adherent Muslim saying I am not a true muslim.

Because the problem is that people who are willing to commit terrible crimes in the name of their religion would likewise tell you that you're not a true muslim.
You've said in a previous post that these people "don't have actual faith", I asked you what you meant with this but I don't think you replied. Faith is a ery personal thing so it's a rather impossible task to determine which sort of faith is the "actual one". It'd be like arguing that only supporters of X are the only real football fans.

Who are you exactly (or anyone else for that matter, "scholar" or not) to decide who's right and who's wrong? It doesn't just apply to islam, but pretty much every single religion, which are divided in countless different sects disagreeing on the interpretation and/or core values of the very same books.
This is evidently a big issue when said books are supposed to be straight from the mouth of the almighty creator of the universe; you'd think that such a being would be able to come up with a book that is absolutely immune to any sort of disagreeing interpretations from mere human beings.

So at the end of the day, the vast majority of people who have a problem with religion think that it's because it can lead to such things, and not that it is immediately equivalent, and therefore there's really no need to try and convince people that we're dealing with "not true muslims" here. It is rather futile and that's not really the point anyway.

 

[Joni]

pretty much. 'it's not your fault, but i mean, look at what you drew'.

Indeed, a lot of defenses come off as 'They don't deserve this, but they kinda deserved it.'

 

[Nev]

not threat. act with war to eliminate. with arms. its defending yourself with arms against arms, not defending yourself with arms against ideas.

I won't judge without reading it myself, but even if you were absolutely faithful, my point remains, the book asks for killing people in other way or another and even if it's in a "harmless" way or it's "justified", it can lead to confusion and unfortunate events and should be at least changed or removed.

 

[vityaz]

Apparently 2 people arrested for the attack this morning in which a police officer and a municipal worker got shot.

Also police have searched all houses in Corcy commune, and have left the location.

This according to swedish source

 

[Goliath]

You said the book says muslims have to kill people who threat with eliminating Islam. That isn't the same as people who threat to end your life.

Anyhow if, as you said, that's outdated, why don't the believers of the religion change it? You can't say your religion and your creator are all about love then have something in it that explicity aks for killing another person.

Don't all religious texts have justifications for violence or even slavery in them? And the Bible and the Torah don't have an amendments section or any explicit changes because the texts are "outdated".

It's really up to the interpreter to pick and chose what they value from these texts when it comes to religion. Thats why Christianity has so many sects.

 

[Maninthemirror]

America's favorite journalist Don Lemon asks Muslim Civil Rights attorney on CNN: Do you Support ISIS?

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/01/...don-lemon-stuns-muslim-human-rights-attorney/

“If you survey the vast majority of Muslims around the world, they would certainly say that the killing of innocent civilians is not only murder, but it’s also against any normative mainstream teaching of Islam,” Iftikhar explained. “Their acts are about as Muslim as abortion clinic bombers’ or gay night club bombers’ acts are Christian.”

“What you’re saying though, that’s not always a reality of what people think about Islam,” Lemon noted.

“It’s important not to conflate the actions of a very few to a population of 1.7 billion people, which represents 20 percent of the world’s population,” Iftikhar pointed out. “You know, if people want to blame Islam for things, you know, they can blame us for inventing algebra or modern medical anesthesia or having five out of the last 12 Nobel Peace Prize winners.”

“When Christians commit acts of terror, we don’t asks priests and pastors to go on national television to condemn these acts, but sadly Muslim public intellectuals, thinkers, leaders, and Islamic scholars have that double standard that we have to deal with,” he added. “I think it’s important to keep in mind that bringing religion into it at all is actually serving the purposes of the terrorists.”

Citing an August 2014 Newsweek poll which found that 16 percent of all French citizen supported ISIS, Lemon asked Iftikhar if all of those people were “Islamic extremists.”

But Iftikhar said that it was wrong to jump to the conclusion that all French citizens who had said they supported ISIS in August of last year would back the killing of innocent civilians.

“Again in August, 16 percent of French citizens support ISIS,” Lemon pressed. “Would you describe those who support ISIS as Islamic extremists? Do you support ISIS?”

The question stunned Iftikhar.

“Wait,” he replied. “Did you just ask me if I support ISIS? I just answered your question. I said that obviously these 16 percent of people support the ideology, but again, I don’t think that would necessarily extrapolate to supporting of killing of innocent people.”

 

[Flo_Evans]

not threat. act with war to eliminate. with arms. its defending yourself with arms against arms, not defending yourself with arms against ideas.

If we are being honest though western ideas are a threat to Islam. Religious belief is waning in every progressive country.

Other religions left room for amendment and reinterpretation but Islam seems far more rigid. I do not expect it so last in the modern world.

 

[Maninthemirror]

I won't judge without reading it myself, but even if you were absolutely faithful, my point remains, the book asks for killing people in other way or another and even if it's in a "harmless" way or it's "justified", it can lead to confusion and unfortunate events and should be at least changed or removed.

go ahead: http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=1&region=E1
the only people who believe the book asks for killing people in other way or another and even if its in a harmless or its juststified are terrorists. If you want to give their radical ideas weight, thats your prerogative

If we are being honest though western ideas are a threat to Islam. Religious belief is waning in every progressive country.

Other religions left room for amendment and reinterpretation but Islam seems far more rigid. I do not expect it so last in he modern world.

freedom to practice faith is paramount in west world. human rights are paramount in west. civil rights are paramount in west. every citizen is protected in west. I would say that aspect which is the major aspect is in line with Islam and not a threat. the only threat west has is to the radicalists who dont like those aspects of the west.

 

[vityaz]

Guys, can you just stop with the islam debate? This is not the thread for that...

 

[ComputerMKII]

America's favorite journalist Don Lemon asks Muslim Civil Rights attorney on CNN: Do you Support ISIS?

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/01/...don-lemon-stuns-muslim-human-rights-attorney/

 

[vinnygambini]

Has Francois Hollande said anything?

Terrible news.

 

[nynt9]

Quran is written in a way that every chapter is connected to each other. one verse in one chapter cannot contradict another chapter. if you think it is, you are apparently only reading a verse and not the before and after verses.

I don;t find this to be an adequate deflection. In this page, you can find a long list of inconsistencies, with answers given at each link by many Muslim thinkers, and a lot of the answers contradict each other as well. So who is correct here?

edit: nvm, seems thread has kinda moved on by the time i responded

 

[Palette Swap]

I hope this is the right thread but reading up on the policewoman killed this morning in an apparently unrelated attack is pretty disheartening.

Her name was Clarissa Jean-Philippe, she was 25 and still going through her local police internship.
She was from Martinique island, which means her family is super far.

Her killer is still on the loose.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Has Francois Hollande said anything?

Terrible news.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA9e8yoQgjw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWLs4jPntsA

 

[Eligor]

Apparently the two terrorists held a journalist at point blank so she could get them into Charlie's securized office. She initially tried to mislead them but eventually caved in.
I can't even imagine how she must feel right now...

 

[RangerX]

This thread has gone to shit.

 

[marrec]

This thread has gone to shit.

It's fine now, shhh, lets stay on track.

 

[Maninthemirror]

I don;t find this to be an adequate deflection. In this page, you can find a long list of inconsistencies, with answers given at each link by many Muslim thinkers, and a lot of the answers contradict each other as well. So who is correct here?

that is quite easy to put down, take the 1st verse. 34:50-51

the site says

Who suffers loss if Muhammad was wrong? Sura 34:50 commands Muhammad to say, "If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss," which is a severe factual error in the Qur'an as well as contradicting the teaching of the Qur'an in a number of other verses.

the whole verse

[34:50] Say, ‘The Truth has come, and falsehood could neither originate any good nor reproduce it.’

[34:51] Say, ‘ If I err, I err only against myself; and if I am rightly guided, it is because of what my Lord has revealed to me. Verily, He is All-Hearing, Nigh.’

this doesnt mean the Holy Prophets words were a mix of wrong and right, it means if he ever errors and goes astray its because of his own fault as if I am rightly guided (from God), it is because of what God has sent to me. Thus saying if I go astray its because I did not listen to what God has been sending me in the Quran and if I am rightly guided and not wrong its because I am being revealed the truth from God and following it.

People love to twist meanings.


yes lets move on. enough verses for the day

 

[cw_sasuke]

Apparently the two terrorists held a journalist at point blank so she could get them into Charlie's securized office. She initially tried to mislead them but eventually caved in.
I can't even imagine how she must feel right now...

I read they were threatening to kill her infant child as well... Disgusting scum of humanity.

 

[Xando]

This picture is incredible.

Imagine you waking up and with heavily armed police offers knocking on your door.

 

[MHWilliams]

Is this the way the Koran is written that make some people to kill for that?
Is there really some passage that ask to kill people?
If yes, how people can base their life on this book?
If yes, it's hypocrit not to denounce those passage and not asking to remove them.

No it doesn't nullify anything. It doesn't matter what context of under what circustamces, a book that asks to kill, whatever the reason, should not be followed by anyone.

Sigh. Religion is a bit fluid. Otherwise... Christianity! Leviticus has some gems (New American Version).

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. Leviticus 20:10

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives. Leviticus 20:13

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. Leviticus 20:27

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. Exodus 21:15

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. Deuteronomy 13:7-12

Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the Lord thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers; When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the Lord thy God. Deuteronomy 13:13-19 (King James in this case)

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' Exodus 31:12-15

Old Testament God is a bit of a dick.

 

[vinnygambini]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA9e8yoQgjw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWLs4jPntsA

Merci beaucoup.

Je suis profondément attristé par cette nouvelle.

 

[gutter_trash]

It's fine now, shhh, lets stay on track.

shit was worse yesterday when thread was derailed of Far-Left blaming the Far-Right or fearing the rise of the Far-Right.

As a secular liberal, I thought that to be odd. Because as a secular, I make fun of all religions.