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[FartOfWar]

I dont mean to be so stubborn, but I think the second guy should not even be supporting the idea of death for blasphemy through a "trial".

The whole concept is a farce, but he seems to be upholding the idea of a careful, lawful trial, as if blasphemy should or could ever be grounds for death. I imagine that there are some people who support a blasphemy punishment by law, while denouncing the violence of today's events.

I hope the very concept of blasphemy laws is denounced altogether.

Agreed. Reading the second "scholar's" horseshit is scary.

 

[Dead Man]

In the US I'm pretty sure 18 makes you an adult. Is the legal age different in France.

I don't think you can be an adult until you can drink yourself silly. But again, why is this important? To my old arse an 18 year old is a kid no matter what the age of consent says.

Agreed. Reading the second "scholar's" horseshit is scary.

Read it again. He is not supporting anything like what you think he is. He is saying that even if you have the stupid idea that blasphemy deserves death, it must be by trial and in accordance with laws.

 

[RustyNails]

The fact that he can still mention that blasphemy could be punishable by death after a trial is just obscene.

What a joke.

He is responding to people asking on his facebook "death to blasphemers!!1"

Read for yourself

 

[King Tubby]

Its not even sort of. Its a complete detachment from those that hold that view. You never use the word, even, to talk about those you agree with its use as an adverb is: "used to emphasize something surprising or extreme.".

Its like when those on gaf use the 'even ronald reagan' or 'even george w bush' and explain why right wingers are more crazy than them. They're not expressing support of reagan or those people.

Well, even so, isn't he essentially describing a procedure in which execution for blasphemy would be permissible under Islam?

 

[-tetsuo-]

The police officer is dead, what else do you need as proof?

He is a wild one. A couple days ago he told me not to put money in the bank because "Your money can't make money in the Bank.". I asked him how he makes money with his money instead and he told me that I wouldn't understand. It is a series of nuggets like that every few days, and he simply does not believe anything reported by the media.

 

[Gotchaye]

Well, even so, isn't he essentially describing a procedure in which execution for blasphemy would be permissible under Islam?

He's arguing in the alternative. Yes, that part of his argument is assuming that the death penalty may be appropriate for blasphemy. It's reasonable to assume this because there are people who actually think this, and his aim is to convince those people, not you, that it's at least inappropriate for them to go out and kill blasphemers themselves.

 

[Dead Man]

So basically, he (along with his fellow scholars, according to him) would rather have the state prosecute and kill those who commit blasphemy, such as cartoonists. Is there any other way of reading that?

Yes, one in which you don't skip words. See half a dozen great posts prior to yours explaining this.

 

[jdouglas]

Well, even so, isn't he essentially describing a procedure in which execution for blasphemy would be permissible under Islam?

Yeah. The point I was trying to make is that this fact is what enables the extremism, whereas a Jain would look at the ground to make sure they weren't stepping on any ants.

 

[LyleLanley]

So basically, he (along with his fellow scholars, according to him) would rather have the state prosecute and kill those who commit blasphemy, such as cartoonists. Is there any other way of reading that?

He's saying that even if you believe such acts deserve death you should leave it to a court decision and not take action into your own hands. In the first paragraph he literally says he does not support murder in the name of Islam.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

With respect to condemnation from Muslim communities, I once read this book during my undergraduate:

Fatwa on Terrorism and Suicide Bombings: Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri

The author is an extremely well regarded Islamic scholar from Pakistan. He goes through the entire Koran and prophetic traditions illuminating precisely why terrorism and events like what happened in Paris are absolutely anti-Muslim. He even goes as far as to declare that those who perpetrate them are crazy heretics that have plagued the religion for centuries.

It's a good resource if you're ever looking to counter an argument from someone discriminating against Muslims or claiming that they haven't done enough to condemn these attacks. The State Department was a big fan when it was released in 2010.

This is true. It always has been first and foremost a problem for Muslim communities who face the brunt of these crazies

Terrorism was kind of birthed from the Assassins who unlike the AssCreed version were a crazy religious sect that broke off from mainstream Islam and attacked Islamic leaders for not being true (there's even the story from Marco Polo they were promised a 'paradise" for their killing of fellow Muslims').

Well, even so, isn't he essentially describing a procedure in which execution for blasphemy would be permissible under Islam?

Yes, but its a rhetorical device used to try to convince people who don't hold your view point. There is no way someone uses that if they actually agree with the view.

 

[His Majesty]

I don't think you can be an adult until you can drink yourself silly. But again, why is this important? To my old arse an 18 year old is a kid no matter what the age of consent says.

18 is the legal age and the minimum age for purchasing alcoholic beverages. Most Western European countries have no minimum age for alcohol consumption.

Sucks for him but he will be treated as an adult.

 

[CrunchyB]

I do find it chilling that the "moderate" voice calling for calm still thinks that people should die for insulting his choice in religions, just after a "trial".

No comment on this.

 

[Spaced Harrier]

I hope the next issue of Charlie hebdo has the headline "Thank you Allah for our record sales!"

Je suis Charlie

 

[RustyNails]

I dont mean to be so stubborn, but I think the second guy should not even be supporting the idea of death for blasphemy through a "trial".

The whole concept is a farce, but he seems to be upholding the idea of a careful, lawful trial, as if blasphemy should or could ever be grounds for death. I imagine that there are some people who support a blasphemy punishment by law, while denouncing the violence of today's events.

I hope the very concept of blasphemy laws is denounced altogether.

As mentioned above, he is responding to confused posters asking how we should deal with Blasphemy. In his speeches, he clearly is a proponent of religious freedom, and does NOT subscribe to the idea of even prosecuting someone for blasphemy

 

[FrozenXcalibur]

A hashtag called #MouradHamydInnocent is trending in France, reportedly started by classmates of 18-year-old Hamyd Mourad who say they were in class with him at the time of the attack.

http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-30710777

Je suis Charlie.

 

[DTKT]

He is responding to people asking on his facebook "death to blasphemers!!1"

Read for yourself

I understand that it's not his opinion and he believes that view to be totally wrong but the fact that he feels like he has to spend some time specifying that is just terrifying. In what kind of world do we live in that something like that can be considered as a reasonable and normal point to bring up?

Just mind boggling.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I dont mean to be so stubborn, but I think the second guy should not even be supporting the idea of death for blasphemy through a "trial".

The whole concept is a farce, but he seems to be upholding the idea of a careful, lawful trial, as if blasphemy should or could ever be grounds for death. I imagine that there are some people who support a blasphemy punishment by law, while denouncing the violence of today's events.

I hope the very concept of blasphemy laws is denounced altogether.

It's a fundamental part of their religion. You shouldn't expect that much progress from people high up in the religion, unfortunately.

 

[King Tubby]

He's arguing in the alternative. Yes, that part of his argument is assuming that the death penalty may be appropriate for blasphemy. It's reasonable to assume this because there are people who actually think this, and his aim is to convince those people, not you, that it's at least inappropriate for them to go out and kill blasphemers themselves.

I understand what you and other posters are saying, and I agree that this was his intention. However it's still not as heartening as stating that "Blasphemy is not punishable by death under any circumstances."

Fighting ignorance one facebook post at a time. I mean you're not going to convince die-hard salafists that blasphemy should be ignored, so using their own device, at least tell them that murdering people in cold blood is not the way to go about it. We'll get to why blasphemy laws are no longer later, but these people need to learn their A B Cs first.

Well, this makes sense. I do understand that you have to do a balancing act in terms of not losing credibility when communicating with extremists or hardliners.

 

[Dead Man]

18 is the legal age and the minimum age for purchasing alcoholic beverages. Most Western European countries have no minimum age for alcohol consumption.

Sucks for him but he will be treated as an adult.

In the US ( the country in the post I quoted) it is 21 to drink. And I don't care that he will be tried as an adult, that is fine. I will still call him a kid.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

In what kind of world do we live in that something like that can be considered as a reasonable and normal point to bring up?

Absolutely insane.

Exactly that kind of world.

 

[CadetMahoney]

Read it again. He is not supporting anything like what you think he is. He is saying that even if you have the stupid idea that blasphemy deserves death, it must be by trial and in accordance with laws.

He's condoning the idea of blasphemy trials by suggesting it in the first place. Which is dumb. I guess the scholar is just trying to find some middle ground, sick.

 

[Dead Man]

I understand that it's not his opinion and he believes that view to be totally wrong but the fact that he feels like he has to spend some time specifying that is just terrifying. In what kind of world do we live in that something like that can be considered as a reasonable and normal point to bring up?

Just mind boggling.

What's mind boggling is people not understanding a person simply using an argument to undermine a position they disagree with, fucking hell.

He's condoning the idea of blasphemy trials by suggesting it in the first place. Which is dumb. I guess the scholar is just trying to find some middle ground, sick.

No he fucking isn't. That is about the only response this fucking stupid line of bullshit is worth now.

Edit: All he is doing is pre empting the reply that some people will use that goes along the lines of 'But in Islam the penalty for blasphemy is death, therefore this is okay'.

 

[RustyNails]

I understand that it's not his opinion and he believes that view to be totally wrong but the fact that he feels like he has to spend some time specifying that is just terrifying. In what kind of world do we live in that something like that can be considered as a reasonable and normal point to bring up?

Just mind boggling.

Fighting ignorance one facebook post at a time. I mean you're not going to convince die-hard salafists that blasphemy should be ignored, so using their own device, at least tell them that murdering people in cold blood is not the way to go about it. We'll get to why blasphemy laws are no longer later, but these people need to learn their A B Cs first.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

this is what usually destroys any extremism in modern societies: when they, to blindly and irrationally fulfill their ideals, go so far to kill or harm the people they should "fight" for they lose support they may have built.

I hope the poor policeman death would take many extremist back to earth, showing them the horror of their ideology and goals.

I think it will, the attack by the Taliban on the Pakistani school recently really hurt their "cause" and served as a grim reminder for the whole Muslim community that these people are not an example what the religion preaches.

 

[Gotchaye]

I understand what you and other posters are saying, and I agree that this was his intention. However it's still not as heartening as stating that "Blasphemy is not punishable by death under any circumstances."

I mean, sure, it'd be nice if that's all that had to be said. It'd be nicer if the issue didn't even come up. But it seems like it's a good line of argument to advance if there are people who aren't willing to give up on thinking that in some sense blasphemy warrants death.

It should also be noted that this sort of "yes, technically monstrous thing X is required by God, but only in circumstances that don't apply to us" approach to some religious rule is really a pretty common way of dealing with uncomfortable parts of holy texts. Like, you commonly see Christians explaining away anti-gay bits of the Bible by talking about how those laws made sense for the Israelites but not us. Jews have a whole bunch of technical rules, some of which are unpleasant, that they get to ignore because the temple's gone.

I'm curious to know what the guy means by "legitimate Islamic state". ISTR that some Muslims argue something like that there is no legitimate Islamic state right now nor is there likely to be one anytime soon.

 

[Coins]

Im curious about Islam and hope someone can answer a question. How do muslims view homosexuality? Is there any segment of Islam that accepts homosexuals?

I ask because when I see a thread debating Christianity, I always see how people think Christians are vile because of their unwillingness to accept something that's completely natural, which would indicate to me, that if there was some kind of grand deity, that homosexuality was created by this deity.

When I see thrwads about Islam, no one really mentions the views of moderate Muslims in regards to homosexuals. Is it generally more accepted?

 

[jdouglas]

Im curious about Islam and hope someone can answer a question. How do muslims view homosexuality? Is there any segment of Islam that accepts homosexuals?

I ask because when I see a thread debating Christianity, I always see how people think Christians are vile because of their unwillingness to accept something that's completely natural, which would indicate to me, that if there was some kind of grand deity, that homosexuality was created by this deity.

When I see thrwads about Islam, no one really mentions the views of moderate Muslims in regards to homosexuals. Is it generally more accepted?

What do you think?

 

[DrForester]

http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-30710777

Je suis Charlie.

Man, that's got to be terrifying turning yourself in to people who think you helped murder a dozen people.

Assuming he is innocent. Maybe it's someone with the same name as the person they are looking for.

 

[lefantome]

I think it will, the attack by the Taliban on the Pakistani school recently really hurt their "cause" and served as a grim reminder for the whole Muslim community that these people are not an example what the religion preaches.

Yeah, I forgot about that, it was as big as disgraceful.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

I don't think that blasphemy should have a death sentence ever and people who disagree are messed up. If they don't like it because they have some crazy religious opinions or interpretations then that should make no difference to anything. They should simply be opposed.

 

[Coins]

What do you think?

I don't know. That's why I ask.

 

[FartOfWar]

I don't think you can be an adult until you can drink yourself silly. But again, why is this important? To my old arse an 18 year old is a kid no matter what the age of consent says.



Read it again. He is not supporting anything like what you think he is. He is saying that even if you have the stupid idea that blasphemy deserves death, it must be by trial and in accordance with laws.

Isn't this tacit admission that among islam's more generally accepted tenets is capital punishment for blasphemy? Not on the scholar I suppose.

 

[Rogue_Ledr]

They'll get life.

Which is pathetic!

These monsters deserve death.

They want to die, so why not fulfill their wish?

 

[CrimzonSamurai]

Man, that's got to be terrifying turning yourself in to people who think you helped murder a dozen people.

Assuming he is innocent. Maybe it's someone with the same name as the person they are looking for.

Or it could be the person whose photo ID was left in the first getaway car as a false lead.

Finding the ID in the car was confirmed, wasn't it? Never got confirmation of whether they believed it was the actual perpetrators ID or planted to deceive investigators.

 

[Dead Man]

Isn't this tacit admission that among islam's more generally accepted tenets is capital punishment for blasphemy? Not on the scholar I suppose.

How is it showing that it is among Islam's more generally accepted tenets? All it is an admission of is that there are fuckheads who believe it, not how many there are.

 

[Spaced Harrier]

Which is pathetic!

These monsters deserve death.

They want to die, so why not fulfill their wish?

We don't do that here.

That is the point.

 

[CrunchyB]

Fighting ignorance one facebook post at a time. I mean you're not going to convince die-hard salafists that blasphemy should be ignored, so using their own device, at least tell them that murdering people in cold blood is not the way to go about it. We'll get to why blasphemy laws are no longer later, but these people need to learn their A B Cs first.

There we have it. We must handle them with kid gloves, lest they be offended again.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

I don't know. That's why I ask.

Its not allowed

 

[Dead Man]

There we have it. We must handle them with kid gloves, lest they be offended again.

Yeah, damn practical persuasion that works. Fuck it right off! How dare somebody use a chain of reasoning to actually persuade someone their position is not correct?


:/

 

[Althane]

Which is pathetic!

These monsters deserve death.

They want to die, so why not fulfill their wish?

“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."

Maybe, hopefully, they will see the error of their ways.

At least, that's what the civilized side of me says.

The emotional side of me wishes I could crush them with my own hands.

Human condition, neh?

 

[orochi91]

Im curious about Islam and hope someone can answer a question. How do muslims view homosexuality? Is there any segment of Islam that accepts homosexuals?

I ask because when I see a thread debating Christianity, I always see how people think Christians are vile because of their unwillingness to accept something that's completely natural, which would indicate to me, that if there was some kind of grand deity, that homosexuality was created by this deity.

When I see thrwads about Islam, no one really mentions the views of moderate Muslims in regards to homosexuals. Is it generally more accepted?

I personally don't care about someones sexuality.

That's something he/she can discuss with God in the afterlife.

But I know of other Muslims who are moderate, but take on a stricter view of homosexuality.

They won't condemn gay individuals, but will likely show/feel disdain in being associated with one.

 

[Coins]

Its not allowed

At all? There are Christian churches that accept homosexuals and reject the idea that same sex relationships are sinful. Is this not the case with islam?

 

[Mimosa97]

As an American, I would like to take a second and tell everyone in this thread who is French or Parisian just how admirable your response to this heinous act is. It is incredible to see a nation generate such positivity and solidarity not just within France, but throughout EU member states, from such a negative event.

And, as an American, I implore you not to make the same mistakes that we have (post-9/11). Never give up on the ideal of a free society, one that is free from both terrorist agents and authoritarian governments.

Much respect to you guys.

I'm french and even though i live in Canada at the moment, i was born and raised in Paris.

Thank you for this comment, my brother. It brought tears to my eyes.

Much love.

 

[mantidor]

with free speech you can easily identify the people who threat to murder people because of some cartoons because they would be open about it.

Also people could try to talk some sanity into them.


btw I think the user just wanted to post that these kind of actions may have a support larger than what we thought. I'm not sure how big these demonstration were and where they had place.

Free speech can be misguided, but in no way shows the true heart of people, that is an issue I think people often overlook.

Westboro Baptist Church picked the funeral of a gay kid, I have no doubt people (even myself) wanted them burned and dead, people come up with all kind of gruesome scenarios for someone we considered truly evil, jumping from that to actual actions is the line you shouldn't cross. The IRONY, Islam, Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, Buddhism, hell Shintoism, all warn us about this.

 

[orochi91]

At all? There are Christian churches that accept homosexuals and reject the idea that same sex relationships are sinful. Is this not the case with islam?

Quran itself doesn't say it's acceptable (if I recall correctly), but it depends on an individual basis.

Some Muslims are chill with it, but many do find issue with homosexuality.

 

[Winterfang]

Maybe, hopefully, they will see the error of their ways.

At least, that's what the civilized side of me says.

The emotional side of me wishes I could crush them with my own hands.

Human condition, neh?

Though in the opposite site, they can convert other criminals in prison, that will go out later radicalized. We just don't know for sure, I just want them to be caught.

 

[SolidusDave]

Fighting ignorance one facebook post at a time. I mean you're not going to convince die-hard salafists that blasphemy should be ignored, so using their own device, at least tell them that murdering people in cold blood is not the way to go about it. We'll get to why blasphemy laws are no longer later, but these people need to learn their A B Cs first.

I can see why he has to tread carefully, but the point is lost I would say.
If the act itself is declared righteous, asking people to not go vigilante about it is all but a formality.
If I were to continue that logic, then there was no lawful way to deal with the satirists in France in a trial. Unless they dragged them to one of the countries that actually still execute people for blasphemy.

 

[FlyingSaucer]

Which is pathetic!

These monsters deserve death.

They want to die, so why not fulfill their wish?

You know, and contrary to what you may be thinking, a life sentence isnt really that much lots of fun...

Yeah, death sentences, we dont really do that.

 

[orioto]

Are there no news anymore ? french journalists are sleeping now..

 

[ComputerMKII]

Ballsy front page from financial newspaper La Tribune. Too few newspapers have decided to reproduce the cartoons.

"They died for this! - #jesuischarlie"