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[malingenie]

Don't know if this has been posted before, but a good article with links re: Muslim responses to these disgusting acts [not this one specifically, but ones preceding it]. It's a good source to share.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...ont-more-moderate-muslims-denounce-extremism/

 

[mantidor]

Free doesn't allow you to jump to actual sanctions.

It seems that the westboros have no shame in showing their true beliefs right? We can thank free speech for that so we can mock them into imsignificance.

I don't get this.. I think we are actually agreeing.

 

[TheContact]

Any word on if they've been identified or better yet captured?

 

[typist]

Maybe a full and proper examination and headlong clash of civilisations is what this world needs to cure itself of these ridiculous fanatics.

I fully agree with your entire post but the concluding sentence in particular. Like the Scopes trial more extremist beliefs need to be crushed in a fair public setting. Furthermore those beliefs need to be replaced by the values for freedom and tolerance. Liberty, equality, fraternity.

 

[Qvoth]

i think a big problem with this kind of thing is that the mainstream muslim community/media/government doesn't condemn it enough

 

[Fenderputty]

Why is it pathetic ? We have laws. We have banned the death penalty and except internet trolls i've never met anyone in France who wants it back.And if you know a bit of french history, then you're aware of something called " La guillotine " so we used to be very fond of public killings.

If they get caught, they will get life in prison. That's how it works. I know you might feel otherwise, thinking that we're all a bunch of softies, leftists or whatever but even the french right-wing party is against the death penalty. So there's a pretty strong consensus about this in our country. And it's not about to change. Thankfully.

I wish more Americans weren't so full of bloodlust. I think it's admirable that even in this crisis you're all able to lift yourselves above it. The French people are responding to this amazingly.

 

[Dead Man]

I assume US liberal assumes a semblance of tolerance which includes respect to other people's views. I don't see disrespecting other people's beliefs as liberal tolerance, I see trying to change a persons personal belief by wordplay as intolerance as opposed to ideally liberal tolerance unless there has been a recent change in meaning

I don't understand your issue here. The word 'progressive' has a fairly well established meaning as relating to what the Americans call 'liberal' values. Trying to change a persons belief by wordplay( conversation?) is intolerance and against progressive values? Nope, not gonna buy that one. Not even a little bit.

 

[Maninthemirror]

So his proposition is a treaty with other religions to ban blasphemy all together? That doesn't sound doable, or enforceable in our secular societies.

I also have issues with his conclusion.

Anti Semitic laws, jail for denying holocaust are just two examples. i don't think he is calling for a ban but asking people to respect people with free speech which was its intention by telling the truth

 

[Darren870]

Just woke up. Can anyone fill me in on the major updates over the last few hours? Can't access news sites for the next hour or so.

1 Suspect has turned themselves in (18 year old)
2 Are still at large.

Pretty much it.

 

[Ghazi]

1 Suspect has turned themselves in (18 year old)
2 Are still at large.

Pretty much it.

Live update feed says the suspect who turned himself in has friends starting a trend on Twitter saying he's innocent. They vouch that he was in a class with them when the attack occurred.

 

[Maninthemirror]

I don't understand your issue here. The word 'progressive' has a fairly well established meaning as relating to what the Americans call 'liberal' values. Trying to change a persons belief by wordplay( conversation?) is intolerance and against progressive values? Nope, not gonna buy that one. Not even a little bit.

Saying your view of something sucks so you are not really compatible with our way of life is intolerance, pure and simple. Liberal tolerance is when you don't say it sucks and find ways to bridge a connection where a persons view does not meld with how you view and both reach out to the other, that's called co existence. If there a party of 5 who love to drink and socialize and one doesn't, you don't shun him or her you try bridge the gap in socializing so your fun doesn't make him feel bored or left out

 

[DECK'ARD]

Just woke up. Can anyone fill me in on the major updates over the last few hours? Can't access news sites for the next hour or so.

Any word on if they've been identified or better yet captured?

3 suspects were identified from ID's left in the getaway car. 2 brothers who were known to authorities to be linked to terrorism and involved in Iraq/Syria, and an 18yo who was said to be the driver.

The 18yo handed himself into authorities in north east France. There are claims he wasn't involved, and in class at the time, but not substantiated one way or the other yet.

 

[Kurdel]

Anti Semitic laws, jail for denying holocaust are just two examples. i don't think he is calling for a ban but asking people to respect people with free speech which was its intention by telling the truth

What do you mean by this?

 

[Mr. Giggles]

i think a big problem with this kind of thing is that the mainstream muslim community/media/government doesn't condemn it enough

Can you elaborate further, pretty sure if you go to news sites the governments of muslim countries are condemning the attacks.

We even have pictures from the other thread showing members of the french muslim community marching with mourners in the streets.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Looked a bit like a GTA heist... I mean, they could have been one of the 40 million that bought GTA5.

Good luck escaping with 5 stars, though

 

[JustenP88]

but asking people to respect people with free speech which was its intention by telling the truth

What truth? The truth he wants to hear? The truth that doesn't offend him?

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I wish more Americans weren't so full of bloodlust. I think it's admirable that even in this crisis you're all able to lift yourselves above it. The French people are responding to this amazingly.

I really don't like this 'Americans respond so badly to things, Europeans are so amazing.' meme that is going around. Its been less than 24 hours

#BostonStrong was trending right after the marathon attacks and there was no movement of reprisals towards muslims. People tend to react the same. There's no need for dragging political baggage into every single thing.

 

[Maninthemirror]

I really don't like this 'Americans respond so badly to things, Europeans are so amazing.' meme that is going around

#BostonStrong was trending right after the marathon attacks and there was no movement of reprisals towards muslims. People tend to react the same. There's no need for dragging political baggage into every single thing.

The Australian movement illridewithyou is a prime of example of doing things right

 

[FartOfWar]

Here is a response to this from a 2008 speech

https://www.alislam.org/holyprophet...Speech-and-Cartoon-Controversy-20080321MN.pdf

Utter absurities written by someone lacking any meaningful understanding of the subject.

 

[Arksy]

Thanks guys. They know who they are, they won't get too far now. Hopefully.

 

[Spaced Harrier]

Can you elaborate further, pretty sure if you go to news sites the governments of muslim countries are condemning the attacks.

We even have pictures from the other thread showing members of the french community marching with mourners in the streets.

There's also tons of semi justification, victim blaming and obfuscation going on.

Hell there's plenty in this thread

 

[NYCmetsfan]

The Australian movement illridewithyou is a prime of example of doing things right

is there a 'right way' to respond? I agree that's admirable but I don't know why were ranking responses and saying some are better than others. I think generally people respond to horror and terror similarly; with resilence and a desire not to succumb to these monster's desire.

This is true in the US, Europe, Australia, Mumbai, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and pretty much everywhere

 

[Next]

Islam views man and women as naturally created to procreate and spread and the only way you can per Islam is by getting married and then having children and if you cannot have children then it's unfortunate but the focus should turn on extra loving between the couples as they cannot bear children.

Islam also views that naturally a man has an organ which fits into a female organ whose primary purpose besides peeing is a way to procreate, you know like a female and male connector in electronics, a logical connection

While islam does say that due to homosexuals not being able to procreate and as opposed to above, it views the act of homosexuality as Un natural thus if the end is just for sexual pleasure and never for bearing children through sex, then it views it as wrong, if a homosexual has a predisposition to be homosexual then it is likely something he or she cannot control due to their predisposition and thus you cannot hurt or harm homosexuals or be prejudiced against or act or take actions which harm or hurt homosexuals due to islams willingness to be kind to everyone. Just don't perform homosexual acts in public as that equates to adultery sex in public

That's fucked up. And really specific... also, you know a dick can fit many holes right?

 

[Maninthemirror]

What do you mean by this?

What is the rationale underlying the right to “free speech?” Thomas Jefferson and other Founders believed that minimizing the limits on what people were free to say was essential for a “liberal democracy” to thrive. The “marketplace of ideas” belief holds that the truth and good public policy arise from the competition of widely varying ideas freely shared in public discourse. The Founders also thought that open exchanges of ideas would encourage tolerance among people with opposing views.

http://www.inclusion.msu.edu/equity/FirstAmendmentAndFreedomOfSpeech.html

 

[Raiden]

Not to derail the thread but its kinda weird that last month 100 or so Pakistan students were shot and nobody really cared and this is breaking news all over the world. Have we just become desensitized over the horrors that happen there frequently?

 

[DrForester]

French cop Ahmed Merabet. Rest in Peace.

https://twitter.com/jensbest/status/552984347754897409

I am hearing on social media that this may not be a correct picture of the officer, but someone with the same name. And I haven't seen this picture pop up on any news sites yet.

 

[elrechazado]

Not to derail the thread but its kinda weird that last month 100 or so Pakistan students were shot and nobody really cared and this is breaking news all over the world. Have we just become desensitized over the horrors that happen there frequently?

Nobody cared? Did you miss the wall to wall coverage? That was an insanely huge story wtf are you talking about?

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Not to derail the thread but its kinda weird that last month 100 or so Pakistan students were shot and nobody really cared and this is breaking news all over the world. Have we just become desensitized over the horrors that happen there frequently?

There was a lot of news about that it was the lead story Everywhere.

But there's not the western media presence and cultural association with Paris, France though.

 

[Maninthemirror]

There was a lot of news about that. There's not the western media presence and cultural association with Paris, France though.

On gaf it's 13 pages in a week on that vs 65 pages + 5 pages here in a day if you want to see the sense of engagement

 

[Darren870]

Live update feed says the suspect who turned himself in has friends starting a trend on Twitter saying he's innocent. They vouch that he was in a class with them when the attack occurred.

Yea, I read that. But in the end he was a suspect and he turned himself in... Those are the facts...

Time will tell if he is innocent or not, not going to go off some hashtag on twitter. Will be as bad as NBC...

 

[Buzzati]

Not to derail the thread but its kinda weird that last month 100 or so Pakistan students were shot and nobody really cared and this is breaking news all over the world. Have we just become desensitized over the horrors that happen there frequently?

That was a huge story here in the US, at least.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Not to derail the thread but its kinda weird that last month 100 or so Pakistan students were shot and nobody really cared and this is breaking news all over the world. Have we just become desensitized over the horrors that happen there frequently?

Yes

 

[Kurdel]

http://www.inclusion.msu.edu/equity/FirstAmendmentAndFreedomOfSpeech.html

Um,

What is the rationale underlying the right to “free speech?” Thomas Jefferson and other Founders believed that minimizing the limits on what people were free to say was essential for a “liberal democracy” to thrive. The “marketplace of ideas” belief holds that the truth and good public policy arise from the competition of widely varying ideas freely shared in public discourse. The Founders also thought that open exchanges of ideas would encourage tolerance among people with opposing views.

This directly clashes with the position of the guy you posted, who wishes to impose limits on free speech via religious treaties.

 

[HiredN00bs]

I don't care if Muslims condemn these acts. The reason these things happen is because theistic religion and faith are not virtues, they are a means to whatever purpose the believer desires, and as such they effectively elevate that person's perspective of themselves above their perspective of everyone else. That's why extreme Christians tell non-believers they're going to eternally suffer, and that's why extreme Muslims commit mass murder.

When you fashion your own truth, you distort reality.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

On gaf it's 13 pages in a week on that vs 65 pages + 5 pages here in a day

We have french posters and people familiar with the magazine. Are you shocked people are more engaged with stories that are more familiar with them?

 

[Boom Boom Pow]

Not to derail the thread but its kinda weird that last month 100 or so Pakistan students were shot and nobody really cared and this is breaking news all over the world. Have we just become desensitized over the horrors that happen there frequently?

err what? were you in a cave when it happened and forgot to notice all the response?

Saying your view of something sucks so you are not really compatible with our way of life is intolerance, pure and simple. Liberal tolerance is when you don't say it sucks and find ways to bridge a connection where a persons view does not meld with how you view and both reach out to the other, that's called co existence. If there a party of 5 who love to drink and socialize and one doesn't, you don't shun him or her you try bridge the gap in socializing so your fun doesn't make him feel bored or left out

so you're making the same argument that the right wing christians are making in the US. Please be tolerant of our intolerant views?

as for your example, if one doesn't like to drink, then you don't invite them out to drinking sessions, and invite them out to when you do stuff that does not require drinking. It should not mean you should stop drinking as a way to be inclusive of the 5th. Also, if this scenario really does become a problem, I'd imagine the 5th person finding other friends to hang out with who doesn't drink,

Please man.

 

[Mimosa97]

I wish more Americans weren't so full of bloodlust. I think it's admirable that even in this crisis you're all able to lift yourselves above it. The French people are responding to this amazingly.

It took us a few centuries to quench our thirst but i think we're done with institutionalized blood-spilling

 

[Maninthemirror]

Um,




This directly clashes with the position of the guy you posted, who wishes to impose limits on free speech via religious treaties.

Read the last sentence, for tolerance between groups of opposing views and opposing beliefs

 

[ComputerMKII]

OK, I've been awake since even before the attacks. I really need to get some rest now. Hope they all get caught by the time I check this thread again.

 

[CadetMahoney]

EU has been adamant of being tolerant and welcoming all ethnic groups, all religions and trying to integrate all these people into their societies. And then someone goes and disproves all that effort like this.

Laughable, so Chinese, Jews etc. and all religions different from the official state religion have failed to integrate or something?

Also no one tries to integrate anyone into society at the expense of their cultural identity and customs as long as they aren't law-breaking. Basic things like learning the language are not at the expense btw.

Some more details in this page:
* Terrorists apparently had the wrong address, and first went to the wrong building before getting redirected to the correct one (shows that they probably are not that well organized.)

These guys where in balaclavas and armor + AK47's, must've been jaw dropping seeing them ask for directions and being told the correct address.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Read the last sentence, for tolerance between groups

Your projecting your own definition of tolerance in there. The founders and most people didn't/don't hold your idea of tolerance meaning, 'no offense caused'. Tolerence of others doesn't mean accepting their rules. It means understanding others have different view points and realizing you can still live together.

 

[Fenderputty]

I really don't like this 'Americans respond so badly to things, Europeans are so amazing.' meme that is going around. Its been less than 24 hours

#BostonStrong was trending right after the marathon attacks and there was no movement of reprisals towards muslims. People tend to react the same. There's no need for dragging political baggage into every single thing.

Umm I clearly remember calls for the kids life after the Boston bombing and IIRC he's up for the death penalty. I'm genuinely against the death penalty. I'm genuinely impressed he's able to think past revenge. I'm not pushing a meme.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Your projecting your own definition of tolerance in there. The founders didn't hold your idea of tolerance meaning, 'no offense caused'

So what is your definition of tolerance of opposing views

 

[Captain Europe]

Islam views man and women as naturally created to procreate and spread and the only way you can per Islam is by getting married and then having children and if you cannot have children then it's unfortunate but the focus should turn on extra loving between the couples as they cannot bear children.

Islam also views that naturally a man has an organ which fits into a female organ whose primary purpose besides peeing is a way to procreate, you know like a female and male connector in electronics, a logical connection

While islam does say that due to homosexuals not being able to procreate and as opposed to above, it views the act of homosexuality as Un natural thus if the end is just for sexual pleasure and never for bearing children through sex, then it views it as wrong, if a homosexual has a predisposition to be homosexual then it is likely something he or she cannot control due to their predisposition and thus you cannot hurt or harm homosexuals or be prejudiced against or act or take actions which harm or hurt homosexuals due to islams willingness to be kind to everyone. Just don't perform homosexual acts in public as that equates to adultery sex in public

Those are very homophobic views, no matter how many ifs and buts are used.

 

[elrechazado]

So what is your definition of tolerance of opposing views

Not banning them or asking governments to outlaw them, and not calling for their death.

 

[DECK'ARD]

OK, I've been awake since even before the attacks. I really need to get some rest now. Hope they all get caught by the time I check this thread again.

Thanks for all the updates, will be hoping the same.

 

[m_shortpants]

CAIR statement on the attack

http://myemail.constantcontact.com/...peech.html?soid=1101295800375&aid=3tvtFfvlzwY

 

[Kurdel]

Read the last sentence, for tolerance between groups of opposing views and opposing beliefs

The text you posted said otherwise:

It seems that with the passage of time, freedom of speech has become more important than truth and morality themselves. In the eyes of Danish journalists, freedom of speech overrides all other values. Once upon a time, western philosophers worshipped the idea of truth and the ritual of that worship was freedom of speech. But over time, the ritual itself has become the object of worship. In other words, the method used to discover the truth has become more important than the truth itself.

It's just a bullshit argument against free speech.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

There's also tons of semi justification, victim blaming and obfuscation going on.

Hell there's plenty in this thread

Indeed, although I wanted a better insight into what can be improved in terms of offering consolation and condemning such acts.

I don't mean to give the impression that we should temper our sympathy and support, not at all.

 

[Fenderputty]

Not to derail the thread but its kinda weird that last month 100 or so Pakistan students were shot and nobody really cared and this is breaking news all over the world. Have we just become desensitized over the horrors that happen there frequently?

Yes I would think so. I