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[Mimosa97]

Which is pathetic!

These monsters deserve death.

They want to die, so why not fulfill their wish?

Why is it pathetic ? We have laws. We have banned the death penalty and except internet trolls i've never met anyone in France who wants it back.And if you know a bit of french history, then you're aware of something called " La guillotine " so we used to be very fond of public killings.

If they get caught, they will get life in prison. That's how it works. I know you might feel otherwise, thinking that we're all a bunch of softies, leftists or whatever but even the french right-wing party is against the death penalty. So there's a pretty strong consensus about this in our country. And it's not about to change. Thankfully.

 

[JustenP88]

Im curious about Islam and hope someone can answer a question. How do muslims view homosexuality? Is there any segment of Islam that accepts homosexuals?

From what I've read, their views seem pretty in line with Christians on homosexuality. I'd imagine that the subject comes up more in conversations about Christianity because there's more extreme stuff to talk about with regard to Islam (i.e. this, ISIL, 9/11).

 

[Althane]

Though in the opposite site, they can convert other criminals in prison, that will go out later radicalized. We just don't know for sure, I just want them to be caught.

Well, ideally the prison would be set up to avoid situations such as that.

In practice, I have no idea how the French prison system works.

And yeah, that would be an optimal thing to avoid. Seems like it might have happened here, if some of the stories I read in the original thread were correct.

 

[King Tubby]

It should also be noted that this sort of "yes, technically monstrous thing X is required by God, but only in circumstances that don't apply to us" approach to some religious rule is really a pretty common way of dealing with uncomfortable parts of holy texts. Like, you commonly see Christians explaining away anti-gay bits of the Bible by talking about how those laws made sense for the Israelites but not us. Jews have a whole bunch of technical rules, some of which are unpleasant, that they get to ignore because the temple's gone.

I figured that to be the case here, and it bothers me in all the religions. I get why you soften or change some things after hundreds or thousands of years, but the mental gymnastics involved in justifying it elude me. It feels like manipulation/an unwillingness to let go of antiquated traditions and belief systems.

 

[Chittagong]

What I believe we are witnessing here is a significant escalation of a civil war, in a lack of a better word, within Islam, one that hopefully results in significant reforms.

On top of the ages old Shiia/Sunny adversarity, we are bound to see an ever widening chasm break between zealots and progressive muslims who want nothing to do with Marathon bombings, cartoonist killings, 9/11s and humanitarian aid beheadings.

Acts like this will build motivation for progressive muslims to reform their religion away from all this, by a clergy sanctioned modern interpretation of their holy writings.

 

[LyleLanley]

Ballsy front page from financial newspaper La Tribune. Too few newspapers have decided to reproduce the cartoons.

"They died for this! - #jesuischarlie"

This is great.

 

[RustyNails]

There we have it. We must handle them with kid gloves, lest they be offended again.

Better idea. let's not even reason with them and just fart in their faces. Oh yeah that will SURELY teach them the wonderful ways of our freedoms and liberty, and they will all become atheists and live happily ever after.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

At all? There are Christian churches that accept homosexuals and reject the idea that same sex relationships are sinful. Is this not the case with islam?

Yea, pretty much.

Homosexual rights still needs to evolve in muslim communities, while social acceptance is growing due to the growing homosexual community it hasn't reached the level where religious leaders are on board.

Hopefully someday. Some of my best friends are gay and Muslim.

 

[lefantome]

Free speech can be misguided, but in no way shows the true heart of people, that is an issue I think people often overlook.

Westboro Baptist Church picked the funeral of a gay kid, I have no doubt people (even myself) wanted them burned and dead, people come up with all kind of gruesome scenarios for someone we considered truly evil, jumping from that to actual actions is the line you shouldn't cross. The IRONY, Islam, Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, Buddhism, hell Shintoism, all warn us about this.

Free doesn't allow you to jump to actual sanctions.

It seems that the westboros have no shame in showing their true beliefs right? We can thank free speech for that so we can mock them into imsignificance.

 

[phaonaut]

Terrible all around. RIP is to victims and my sympathy is with the family and friends they left behind.

 

[Father_Brain]

You're critiquing the quality of satirical illustrations in a thread about ten journalists and two police officers being murdered because said drawings offended a few fragile, despicable religious lunatics. Pity you're unable to understand why people suspect you're implying something other than your own distaste for the content of the cartoons. I doubt anyone is concerned that you're annoyed, though.

Oh, I'm very familiar with how simplistic narratives tend to congeal around terrorist attacks and how challenging those narratives is instantly equated with having terrorist sympathies, trust me.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Hopefully someday. Some of my best friends are gay and Muslim.

My gay muslim friend posted a cartoon with Muhammed in it today. Some of them are REALLY progressive. haha

 

[DTKT]

I might be expressing myself badly but my astonishment is not linked to the scholar himself but rather at the situation where he actually needs to address the issue.

I am aware that it's not his position and he's absolutely against the concept but it's such an absurd discussion to me (and it's probably because I have no frame of reference regarding Islam) that I can only express disbelief that it would actually come up in a modern society.

 

[jdouglas]

Free speech can be misguided, but in no way shows the true heart of people, that is an issue I think people often overlook.

Westboro Baptist Church picked the funeral of a gay kid, I have no doubt people (even myself) wanted them burned and dead, people come up with all kind of gruesome scenarios for someone we considered truly evil, jumping from that to actual actions is the line you shouldn't cross. The IRONY, Islam, Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, Buddhism, hell Shintoism, all warn us about this.

Westboro Baptist church doesn't even believe in their own dogma. They're a family of attorneys that sue whoever assaults them. They're a con, not religious.

 

[Pelydr]

Why is it pathetic ? We have laws. We have banned the death penalty and except internet trolls i've never met anyone in France who wants it back.And if you know a bit of french history, then you're aware of something called " La guillotine " so we used to be very fond of public killings.

If they get caught, they will get life in prison. That's how it works. I know you might feel otherwise, thinking that we're all a bunch of softies, leftists or whatever but even the french right-wing party is against the death penalty. So there's a pretty strong consensus about this in our country. And it's not about to change. Thankfully.

As it should be. Sadly I think think a lot of the blood lust is coming from my fellow Americans and its fucking disugusting and just another reason our justice system is so fucked up.

 

[esms]

I'm french and even though i live in Canada at the moment, i was born and raised in Paris.

Thank you for this comment, my brother. It brought tears to my eyes.

Much love.

Stay strong man. We're all in this together.

 

[Buzzati]

My gay muslim friend posted a cartoon with Muhammed in it today. Some of them are REALLY progressive. haha

Is it really that progressive that he posted/drew a cartoon with Muhammed though?

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

So basically, he (along with his fellow scholars, according to him) would rather have the state prosecute and kill those who commit blasphemy, such as cartoonists. Is there any other way of reading that?

He painted a pretty clear hypothetical. Even if blasphemy were illegal, no Islamic allow permits vigilante justice. So that applies to countries where blasphemy is illegal.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

My gay muslim friend posted a cartoon with Muhammed in it today. Some of them are REALLY progressive. haha

haha, oh my, im sure that'll rustle a few jimmies.

 

[Spaced Harrier]

Westboro Baptist church doesn't even believe in their own dogma. They're a family of attorneys that sue whoever assaults them. They're a con, not religious.

That's not true. In fact it is the exact opposite.

 

[DrForester]

I love how they cover their ass and modify the headline to make up for their halfassed reporting and not getting the facts before printing them.

Yes. It's "Confusing"

 

[Maninthemirror]

Im curious about Islam and hope someone can answer a question. How do muslims view homosexuality? Is there any segment of Islam that accepts homosexuals?

I ask because when I see a thread debating Christianity, I always see how people think Christians are vile because of their unwillingness to accept something that's completely natural, which would indicate to me, that if there was some kind of grand deity, that homosexuality was created by this deity.

When I see thrwads about Islam, no one really mentions the views of moderate Muslims in regards to homosexuals. Is it generally more accepted?

Islam views man and women as naturally created to procreate and spread and the only way you can per Islam is by getting married and then having children and if you cannot have children then it's unfortunate but the focus should turn on extra loving between the couples as they cannot bear children.

Islam also views that naturally a man has an organ which fits into a female organ whose primary purpose besides peeing is a way to procreate, you know like a female and male connector in electronics, a logical connection

While islam does say that due to homosexuals not being able to procreate and as opposed to above, it views the act of homosexuality as Un natural thus if the end is just for sexual pleasure and never for bearing children through sex, then it views it as wrong, if a homosexual has a predisposition to be homosexual then it is likely something he or she cannot control due to their predisposition and thus you cannot hurt or harm homosexuals or be prejudiced against or act or take actions which harm or hurt homosexuals due to islams willingness to be kind to everyone. Just don't perform homosexual acts in public as that equates to adultery sex in public

 

[ComputerMKII]

A shitload of French and non-french Front pages:

http://www.huffingtonpost.fr/2015/0...mes_n_6432446.html?ncid=fcbklnkfrhpmg00000001

 

[DrForester]

Free speech can be misguided, but in no way shows the true heart of people, that is an issue I think people often overlook.

Westboro Baptist Church picked the funeral of a gay kid, I have no doubt people (even myself) wanted them burned and dead, people come up with all kind of gruesome scenarios for someone we considered truly evil, jumping from that to actual actions is the line you shouldn't cross. The IRONY, Islam, Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism, Buddhism, hell Shintoism, all warn us about this.

Say what you will about the asshats from Westboro

At least they're peaceful asshats.

 

[CrunchyB]

Better idea. let's not even reason with them and just fart in their faces. Oh yeah that will SURELY teach them the wonderful ways of our freedoms and liberty, and they will all become atheists and live happily ever after.

It's hard to reason with people who are opposed to core elements of western society like freedom of speech. We can't compromise on that, I'm sorry if you feel we should.

 

[Maninthemirror]

It's hard to reason with people who are opposed to core elements of western society like freedom of speech. We can't compromise on that, I'm sorry if you feel we should.

Here is a response to this from a 2008 speech

https://www.alislam.org/holyprophet...Speech-and-Cartoon-Controversy-20080321MN.pdf

Once upon a time, western philosophers worshipped the idea of truth and the ritual of that worship was freedom of speech. But over time, the ritual itself has become the object of worship. In other words, the method used to discover the truth has become more important than the truth itself. As such, the Danish journalists have fallen into the same trap as religious extremists.

 

[Stereogatari]

There will be an adult discussion in here. The events deserve nothing less.

Such a brilliant post, perfectly summed up with the last line about "luxury Western lifestyles".

Imagine an alternate world history where Muslim Empires colonised the West and Muslim Empires colonised the Americas.

What are the chances that such a world would have seen Christian countries in the similar geopolitical turmoil many Muslim countries find themself in atm?

And that the Muslims would have been the ones to go through the intellectual and artistic eras that led to our modern world?

The West is fortunate that geopolitical and cultural machinations led to its current development. It's not our place to act chauvinistic about "how advance our culture is." The West being how it is in an accident of history, the shoe could have been on the other foot, and such thinking helps us reflect that the Muslim World will organically reach the development of the West (and many parts already have or are on the road to it).

They aren't going to reach such development by us talking down and patronising them. Was it us who personally created the stereotypical free Western World? No. Nor are our Muslim counterparts the reason for certain problems in the Muslim World.

We're lucky and they're unlucky ito be born in our respective political climates.

 

[Dead Man]

It's hard to reason with people who are opposed to core elements of western society like freedom of speech. We can't compromise on that, I'm sorry if you feel we should.

Wanting to use effective persuasion is compromising on freedom of speech? LOL

 

[ComputerMKII]

Good news, though: no one is blaming video games for the attack!

 

[R_thanatos]

What does Je Sui Charlie means? Is it "I am Charlie'' or is it ''We are Charlie''?

Je = I
Nous = We

I assume France has no death penalty, correct? What is a reasonable expectation for a sentence, assuming found guilty?

According to Wikipedia, life without parole is only applicable to the following crimes:


For everything else, the maximum sentence is life in prison with a possibility of parole after 22 years.

I'm quite sure that in some cases , the parole time can go up ( a lot ) .

 

[ElFly]

Responses from US Muslim leaders. One of the most prominent US Sheikhs and Islamic leader (Hamza Yusuf)

Equally prominent scholar Yasir Qadhi

The second message is terrible.

He should be saying that death as a punishment for blasphemy is not acceptable, period.

Condemning the method but going with a weak "maybe some of you think the result is acceptable" is just wrong.

Here is a response to this from a 2008 speech

https://www.alislam.org/holyprophet...Speech-and-Cartoon-Controversy-20080321MN.pdf

Blasphemy is the most basic right for a religion. Or do you think that, you got all the details of your religion so precisely right, that when the Mahdi comes, you will not think some of the things he will say are blasphemous? Was not Jesus blasphemous in his time.

 

[Fenderputty]

Good news, though: no one is blaming video games for the attack!

I feel like all of GAF should collectively knock on wood right now.

 

[ramuh]

I just hope from all this that anyone in the future that wants publicize any cartoon or criticisms of religion doesn't hesitate to do so because of this cowardly act. -_-

 

[esms]

I feel like all of GAF should collectively knock on wood right now.

Did my duty.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Is it really that progressive that he posted/drew a cartoon with Muhammed though?

Not drawing muhammed is a pretty big no no in the religion. And yes, its pretty progressive for a self-identified muslim to do something even the most liberal muslims don't do

haha, oh my, im sure that'll rustle a few jimmies.

He's obviously not the most observant lol. He is an old roommate of mine. He acts like most of the christians I know in the states. He identifies as muslim, believes in god but generally goes about their lives according to their own morals. He's a great dude though, funny too.

 

[elrechazado]

A shitload of French and non-french Front pages:

http://www.huffingtonpost.fr/2015/0...mes_n_6432446.html?ncid=fcbklnkfrhpmg00000001

And then there are these cowards:
http://gawker.com/newspapers-are-pi...medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=wednesdayPM

 

[Maninthemirror]

Not drawing muhammed is a pretty big no no in the religion. And yes, its pretty progressive for a self-identified muslim to do something even the most liberal muslims don't do

I wouldn't use the word progressive as progressive indicates an improved view, to some it's a de evolved view not an evolved view but different people think differently,

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I wouldn't use the word progressive as progressive indicates an improved view, to some it's a de evolved view not an evolved view but different people think differently

I'm using it in the US sense as a "liberal" or left-leaning and generally secular. Not a value judgement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism

 

[elrechazado]

Here is a response to this from a 2008 speech

https://www.alislam.org/holyprophet...Speech-and-Cartoon-Controversy-20080321MN.pdf

False equivalency of the most ridiculous degree.

 

[survivor]

Im curious about Islam and hope someone can answer a question. How do muslims view homosexuality? Is there any segment of Islam that accepts homosexuals?

I ask because when I see a thread debating Christianity, I always see how people think Christians are vile because of their unwillingness to accept something that's completely natural, which would indicate to me, that if there was some kind of grand deity, that homosexuality was created by this deity.

When I see thrwads about Islam, no one really mentions the views of moderate Muslims in regards to homosexuals. Is it generally more accepted?

Depends where. Arab countries? Then it's absolutely terrible to live there cause not only do you get socially ostracized and alienated from your community, but depending on the country governments can go after you. Some countries have made some efforts toward progress like Lebanon and really I wish within my lifetime acceptance and tolerance will be the norm there, but I somehow doubt it. Moderate muslims in western countries? Then it probably depends on how moderate they are. Can't speak for all, but the ones I know personally, friends, relatives and so on, but it's not too good. Social acceptance is still lagging behind unfortunately.

 

[Portugeezer]

Good news, though: no one is blaming video games for the attack!

Looked a bit like a GTA heist... I mean, they could have been one of the 40 million that bought GTA5.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Good news, though: no one is blaming video games for the attack!

I bet Jack Thompson is.

 

[Maninthemirror]

I'm using it in the US sense as a "liberal" or left-leaning.

I assume US liberal assumes a semblance of tolerance which includes respect to other people's views. I don't see disrespecting other people's beliefs as liberal tolerance, I see trying to change a persons personal belief by wordplay as intolerance as opposed to ideally liberal tolerance unless there has been a recent change in meaning

 

[Arksy]

Just woke up. Can anyone fill me in on the major updates over the last few hours? Can't access news sites for the next hour or so.

 

[Beefy]

Donald Trump being a cunt like always.

 

[R_thanatos]

And then there are these cowards:
http://gawker.com/newspapers-are-pi...medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=wednesdayPM

Indeed , that is like a perfect exemple of missing the point ...

 

[Kurdel]

Here is a response to this from a 2008 speech

https://www.alislam.org/holyprophet...Speech-and-Cartoon-Controversy-20080321MN.pdf

So his proposition is a treaty with other religions to ban blasphemy all together? That doesn't sound doable, or enforceable in our secular societies.

I also have issues with his conclusion.

Before the holocaust, insulting cartoons were drawn dehumanizing Jews and it led to the massacre of hundreds of thousands of them. Now Danish cartoonists have painted the Holy Prophet (sa) and the whole Ummah of Islam as terrorists. It is our responsibility to dispel the myths that are being created against the Holy Prophet (sa) and Muslims. Unfortunately, the western media defines the word freedom in terms of their culture and history. Our response, as a result, tends to be reactionary or apologetic. Don’t misunderstand me. Western civilization has made a great contribution to humanity on the foundations laid down by Greeks, Roman and Islamic societies. We must appreciate those contributions and absorb them into our culture as long as they don’t conflict with Islam. However, as Muslims and citizens of the world, we have something to offer to the western world as well. One of the things at this juncture that we can offer is to inform them about the beautiful life and teachings of the Holy Prophet (sa). But we must carry out the discussions with the rules taught to us by the Holy Prophet (sa).

 

[Kastrioti]

And then there are these cowards:
http://gawker.com/newspapers-are-pi...medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=wednesdayPM

Unbelievable. You can censor and blur out images all you want, like they tried with South Park, people will eventually get the message.

Censoring them only invokes people to see what the images actually are. It's like porn somehow got printed on those front page magazines.

 

[lefantome]

Here is a response to this from a 2008 speech

https://www.alislam.org/holyprophet...Speech-and-Cartoon-Controversy-20080321MN.pdf

It doesn't make any sense

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I assume US liberal assumes a semblance of tolerance which includes respect to other people's views. I don't see disrespecting other people's beliefs as liberal tolerance.

His post wasn't provoking, it was a cartoon of a Muhammad on a shrink's couch complaining other prophets followers 'have a sense of humor'. He wasn't sharing it on peoples walls or forcing them to like it. He was expressing his opinion about a current event sharing the idea that the prophet he shares with these murders doesn't like the kind of ideology people attach to him. The very definition of liberal though.