This.
I think they'll also adopt development to target a range of specs like PC devs do now.
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The death of the Game Console
- Thread starter jeff_rigby
- Start date
This.
I think they'll also adopt development to target a range of specs like PC devs do now.
This is what will happen. Microsoft's next console will run full blown windows, no question. It will just start up in a gaming-centric environment program built specifically for the console. But you could get to regular windows 10, and could configure to just boot into regular windows 10 if you wanted. It wouldn't surprise me if the Xbox one will be able to run windows 10 by the end of its life cycle. The next system will be like a Microsoft Surface, but a gaming PC/console. It would be Microsoft's first in-house built desktop.
So then the question is, how does Sony stay in this? Their finances are terrible and they've already pulled out of the PC space with the failure of the VAIO. Would anyone buy a Sony console running Microsoft Windows over a Microsoft console running Microsoft windows?
No I have bloodborne and like it a lot. There's just not a whole lot of big console exclusives anymore (outside of Nintendo).
More_Badass
Member
There are probably more. Couldn't remember any others off the top of my head, I don't really follow AAA and console gaming closely
Don't waste your time. This has to be either trolling or willful ignorance. PS4 was released only 1.5 years ago.
People always think PC's are going to move into the living room, but it just isn't a reality. Standardized hardware built in a packaged entertainment box for the living room will always be a more attractive purchase for average consumers. They don't want to mess with upgrading or tinkering. They just want a box they can connect to their TV and be able to play any game that comes out.
And no, TVs aren't going to replace everything since they can have the hardware built in. This only spawns proprietary variable crap. There's a reason TV's don't all have dvd players or blu ray drives built in now. They need to do what they're meant to do - display things, not try to do everything that all my other devices already do.
Consoles - easy, separate, standardized, cheap. Just the way most people like it.
And no, TVs aren't going to replace everything since they can have the hardware built in. This only spawns proprietary variable crap. There's a reason TV's don't all have dvd players or blu ray drives built in now. They need to do what they're meant to do - display things, not try to do everything that all my other devices already do.
Consoles - easy, separate, standardized, cheap. Just the way most people like it.
Except they could have standardized cheap PC hardware that you'd be able to tinker with, but you could also just plug it in and not mess with it.
By making sure their customers don't have to fuck about with a PC?
dragonfart28
Banned
While I do not disagree with the optimization argument, we are seeing many games that still perform better on PCs with hardware that is at a price comparable to consoles.
Also, I think with DX12 we will see a bit of a bump in performance, even on older hardware.
More_Badass
Member
I don't think the average person cares about or is interested in tinkering. Why would a company waste time and money adding features that, for the most part, people wouldn't use?
Plus there's the whole brand recognition. I imagine a parent or whatever isn't going to be researching online for the best Steam
Boxes or which best suits their child's needs. Go to Gamestop or Amazon, PS4 or Xbox or Wii, get the one their kid wants, done, fast, simple.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Simple is what consumers want. Tech heads don't get this.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
I can understand the perspective even if the reality of the games situation does favor PS4 and XB (to a lesser extent).
I'm a PC advocate and agree but only I part. For the casual and less enthusiast, they will see a far superior platform in PS4/XB due to the huge games advantage and mature online alone. That's not even taking the big HW advantage both platforms share over WiiU.
serversurfer
Member
The PS4 has two operating systems? I know about the FreeBSD-based Orbis OS. What's the other one, and what's it for?
On topic, I don't think consoles are going anywhere anytime soon. Certainly not to be replaced by PCs, at least. On the contrary, people seem to be flocking to specialized computers like smartphones, tablets, and consoles, and leaving conventional PCs behind in the process. I guess consoles may eventually be supplanted by tablets and/or smartphones, but I don't really see the masses starting to buy PCs again. Why would they?
On topic, I don't think consoles are going anywhere anytime soon. Certainly not to be replaced by PCs, at least. On the contrary, people seem to be flocking to specialized computers like smartphones, tablets, and consoles, and leaving conventional PCs behind in the process. I guess consoles may eventually be supplanted by tablets and/or smartphones, but I don't really see the masses starting to buy PCs again. Why would they?
dragonyeuw
Member
The Wii U as a viable secondary console works only on the premise that one prefers Nintendo's exclusives to Sony or MS. If not, then certainly its far more rational to pick a Ps4/xbone for all the reasons you list above.
In the scenario of a Microsoft gaming PC/console I described, you wouldn't have to fuck about with anything unless you wanted to.
Because Microsoft will make it so. And people do buy a shit ton of PCs. An apple computer is a PC. Think about how many laptops, desktops, and hybrids people buy across all the manufacturers. Even Google has gotten into the PC business with Chromebooks. Phones and tablets are very close to being PCs, given the range of software available - you can be very productive with just a phone or tablet these days. For example, I pretty much only post on here with my phone, but would never do that on a console because of the archaic interface of an on screen keyboard with input using a joystick. Consoles are very close to being a PC, you just can't do a whole lot of computing on them other than gaming. That will change with the arrival of 4k displays and more effective scaling will allow for people to more reading and typing on large living room displays.
Boombloxer
Member
You posted this is the other thread and got a mountain of reasons of why this is a shit idea.
Namely, the mass market wants no parts of this.
jellies_two
Member
an imac iphone or apple laptop is a lot more like a console than it is like the pc in the neogaf pc topics
why? because it is easy to use, largely non upgradable and most owners dont feel the need to tinker with it, and are not too bothered that they cant tinker with it.
So actually I would say it is more like the niche-ification of the pc (in the sense of a big box full of fans cables and cards that you might want to build yourself). that "pc" is beset on all sides by purposebuilt devices that just work until they need to be recycled and replaced with newer ones.
why? because it is easy to use, largely non upgradable and most owners dont feel the need to tinker with it, and are not too bothered that they cant tinker with it.
So actually I would say it is more like the niche-ification of the pc (in the sense of a big box full of fans cables and cards that you might want to build yourself). that "pc" is beset on all sides by purposebuilt devices that just work until they need to be recycled and replaced with newer ones.
So the mass market does not buy computers?
Right, but conversely I don't think most people are bothered by the ability to tinker with something either.
jellies_two
Member
I agree
most are turned off by having to pick a component. And I understand that. And so does apple.
And even geeks often decide to concentrate on software rather than hardware and never want to have to think about bus multipliers, cooling or cables, ever again. Ever. Again.
So "a one size fits all box you buy to play games on your tv" will be big forever, or until replaced by something even simpler like a chip in your phone that can throw an hd game onto the nearest glass.
most are turned off by having to pick a component. And I understand that. And so does apple.
And even geeks often decide to concentrate on software rather than hardware and never want to have to think about bus multipliers, cooling or cables, ever again. Ever. Again.
So "a one size fits all box you buy to play games on your tv" will be big forever, or until replaced by something even simpler like a chip in your phone that can throw an hd game onto the nearest glass.
Methos#1975
Member
I don't know what the future holds for consoles, but I know for me personally after almost 35 years as a console only gamer I recently took the PC bullet due to being underwhelmed by the XB1 and PS4 and I really have no plans to go back. I sold my XB1 completely and repurchased what I could on PC and my PS4 is on life-support only due to Bloodborne. PC gaming has completely wowed me and won me over.
More_Badass
Member
Same. My first console was a PS1 and I had been 100% consoles for 15 years, aside from the occasional flash and freeware game. Then in 2013, I decided to check out Steam and I haven't looked back. Somehow I have a larger library of PC games in two years than I ever had on all my consoles combined. The diversity of indie games and other genres is just endlessly astounding. I still play consoles for stuff like The Last of Us, GTA V, and other AAA games, but besides that, I barely touch them. Mainly cause I mostly play indie games.
Yup.
Which is why Apple sold 61.1 million iPhones this quarter, despite Android being "hackable and customizable".
I'm constantly amazed at how offended PC gamers are by consoles simply existing.
More like I got a handful of responses that skirted around my question. Not one response has justified why Microsoft and Sony need to make proprietary, closed consoles and stick to a traditional console cycle when gaming consoles are no longer cutting edge and solely leading the way for the rest of the industry. The gaming industry is growing around them and at a faster pace than previous generations.
I'm still waiting for a good response, so if you have something constructive to add please be my guest.
NowhereFaded
Member
I have been a console only gamer for 35 years. Simplicity and price are primarily why. What a 400$ ps4 gives me couldn't hold a candle to building a rig. Maybe someday when my girls are grown I can put some money into a rig but not atm.
One thing the internet is not short on, is PC people telling us how amazing their platform is and how consoles are pointless/dying. But a lot of us play on console and have or have had PC's in the past. I can't imagine there is anyone left on the fence to preach to.
People who took in the master race pontifications of recent years, and bought the $400 'PS4 killer' budget builds in late 2013/2014 have been burnt. And the ones who spent $1000+ are probably very happy.
The idea of plugging a PC into the TV and getting it to work (even by some alternate method where you aren't physically plugging it in) is a complex idea that I would say 99%+ of pc people don't do. PC gamers by and large play at a desk with an office chair and a monitor. That's still where PC primarily is. Living room PC is still in flux and not replacing consoles any time soon.
Often it's nice just to install a game and enjoy it, tweaked and honed by the devs to look/run as well as it can Spending long periods of time visiting a settings menu when loading a game, then constantly returning to it during play to scratch that performance OCD itch, can be frustrating.
As for the PC advantages?
Mild anti-aliasing when you are sitting in front of a TV doesn't bother a lot of people in the slightest.
60FPS is overrated in a lot of games, coming from someone who used to play Quake on a 90hz CRT monitor at 100fps more than 15 years ago to try to gain every advantage I could. Sure, it's amazing for some games, but those games are few and far between. 30fps is just fine for most games. Yes, sub-30 sucks, and we are seeing that occasionally. Yes, 60fps is amazing for fast paced games, but they are less common releases.
When everyone was playing Uncharted 1,2,3, Gears of War 1,2,3 and many other 30fps console games last generation, people talked about the fantastic games they had fun playing. Most didn't notice the framerate, for those that might have it wasn't a big issue. But I feel it's being made into a massive issue in the last 2 years, used as propoganda against consoles. It's just not a big deal.
A lot of the graphical advantages of the PC platform seem to only appreciated when you have your face close up to a monitor, maybe aliasing and 30fps is more noticable and repellant in that scenario, but it isn't bad at all sitting back from a TV.
I notice art, budget, craft, level design, sound design, lighting, shaders, etc, far more than aliasing and resolution... I mean I watch most of my TV show at 720p or lower and I rarely consider sharpness.
There is a danger of overestimating the value of tiny graphical things that most people don't care about.
And what about the disadvantages of PC?
There are definitely more bugs and graphical issues, driver issues, weird micro stutter, tearing issues, alt-tab issues, dodgy ports, DRM mess. Of course, none of this always happens, it might rarely happen, but you will spend a good bit more time troubleshooting and tweaking a PC than a console. It's getting better/closer, but it's still an issue.
No standard consoller. Local multiplayer around a TV with multiple controllers is far easier to set up on console.
I currently play Bloodborne, Destiny, FIFA 15, switching to PC entirely would eleminate a lot of what I'm enjoying.
PC gaming is big money, but for big AAA releases? With a few exceptions PC sales are a fraction of console. Consoles are still the bread and butter of high end development.
It's fantastic and healthy for the industry that PC is doing well thanks to steam, etc. But for flips sake give over.
People who took in the master race pontifications of recent years, and bought the $400 'PS4 killer' budget builds in late 2013/2014 have been burnt. And the ones who spent $1000+ are probably very happy.
The idea of plugging a PC into the TV and getting it to work (even by some alternate method where you aren't physically plugging it in) is a complex idea that I would say 99%+ of pc people don't do. PC gamers by and large play at a desk with an office chair and a monitor. That's still where PC primarily is. Living room PC is still in flux and not replacing consoles any time soon.
Often it's nice just to install a game and enjoy it, tweaked and honed by the devs to look/run as well as it can Spending long periods of time visiting a settings menu when loading a game, then constantly returning to it during play to scratch that performance OCD itch, can be frustrating.
As for the PC advantages?
Mild anti-aliasing when you are sitting in front of a TV doesn't bother a lot of people in the slightest.
60FPS is overrated in a lot of games, coming from someone who used to play Quake on a 90hz CRT monitor at 100fps more than 15 years ago to try to gain every advantage I could. Sure, it's amazing for some games, but those games are few and far between. 30fps is just fine for most games. Yes, sub-30 sucks, and we are seeing that occasionally. Yes, 60fps is amazing for fast paced games, but they are less common releases.
When everyone was playing Uncharted 1,2,3, Gears of War 1,2,3 and many other 30fps console games last generation, people talked about the fantastic games they had fun playing. Most didn't notice the framerate, for those that might have it wasn't a big issue. But I feel it's being made into a massive issue in the last 2 years, used as propoganda against consoles. It's just not a big deal.
A lot of the graphical advantages of the PC platform seem to only appreciated when you have your face close up to a monitor, maybe aliasing and 30fps is more noticable and repellant in that scenario, but it isn't bad at all sitting back from a TV.
I notice art, budget, craft, level design, sound design, lighting, shaders, etc, far more than aliasing and resolution... I mean I watch most of my TV show at 720p or lower and I rarely consider sharpness.
There is a danger of overestimating the value of tiny graphical things that most people don't care about.
And what about the disadvantages of PC?
There are definitely more bugs and graphical issues, driver issues, weird micro stutter, tearing issues, alt-tab issues, dodgy ports, DRM mess. Of course, none of this always happens, it might rarely happen, but you will spend a good bit more time troubleshooting and tweaking a PC than a console. It's getting better/closer, but it's still an issue.
No standard consoller. Local multiplayer around a TV with multiple controllers is far easier to set up on console.
I currently play Bloodborne, Destiny, FIFA 15, switching to PC entirely would eleminate a lot of what I'm enjoying.
PC gaming is big money, but for big AAA releases? With a few exceptions PC sales are a fraction of console. Consoles are still the bread and butter of high end development.
It's fantastic and healthy for the industry that PC is doing well thanks to steam, etc. But for flips sake give over.
More_Badass
Member
Best advantage of PC is the gargantuan and endless library of indies. Nothing else comes close. That's really the only reason I play on PC. Consoles are my go-to platforms for AAA games.
Okay I'm whatever in downplaying stuff like AA but 60FPS is a legitimate huge upgrade for any game. GTA V plays amazing a 60 FPS. I remember when I first bought the PS3 version and had to stop playing because the frame-rate drops were so bad. Sure there are people that don't give a shit but don't downplay how much 60FPS can add to a game.
The consoles that are out now have more in common with PCs than they ever have. It's not really a stretch to say that the two will eventually merge, as creating the content becomes more profitable than owning the hardware.
Hatty
Member
Other than for multiplayer I'm not sure why you would limit yourself like this
My favorite thing about PC is that games scale with hardware due to its mostly unified library. In the future games today will continue to look okay due to scalable resolutions and framerate unlike consoles where you would have to buy a separate release for each future console. Its due to this I see no reason to buy any game besides exclusives for consoles if you have a decent PC
infiniteheteroskdasticity
Member
ROFL at this thread. PC's never have, are or will be serious threats to the dominance of game consoles in the living room for most normal people. Beyond the obvious price, positioning and platform reasons there's one very obvious reason that isn't ever going to change. Most people don't care. Barely anybody wants to deal with building their own PC, drivers, OSs and filesystems. They just want something cheap that works, out of the box and will continue to do so with very little fuss over a period of a few years. That's basically the definition of a games console. Nobody watches a Call Of Duty ad during a baketball playoff game and thinks - "wow - I'm going to go out and but a couple of SLI Titans, a tower, a sdd, a Windows copy, 32GB of DDR4 and 2 gallons of Thermal Paste because I want to play this at 240 fps at 8000p in about a week's time". Most people are like - "neat - I guess I'll just pick up a PS4/Xbox 1 and hook it up to my TV in 2 hours".
Why do you think mobile devices are where most "Personal Computing" happens today?
Why do you think mobile devices are where most "Personal Computing" happens today?
More_Badass
Member
How am I limiting myself? 99% of the time, I only play indies, and my laptop isn't powerful to run AAA games.
Dynasty8
Member
The day console gaming dies, quality gaming dies with it. As long as there are many gamers out there today, I don't see this happening.
I've said this in the past 7 years, but motion ONLY controls and "touch" gaming is killing the quality of this industry.
Specifically mobile/tablets...It's convenient, it's cheap, and it makes a ton of money for developers/publishers....part of me doesn't blame them, they are always in it to make money...and smart phone and tablet users have a combined installment base in the billions. I hope this isn't the case with Nintendo....but when they see the remarkable success in terms of profit with mobile gaming (which they obviously are), I would not be surprised if they exit the console gaming scene completely. I think everyone would agree that the quality of these games feel very watered down in comparison to console gaming on a bigger screen with a controller built specifically for gaming.
Shuhei Yoshida said it best 2 years ago....
As for PC gaming...it's amazing, but it's not for everyone. Main reason being that many people simply can't afford it. Some people would prefer to purchase a $300-400 machine instead that emphasizes solely on gaming and lasts anywhere from 5-10 years. That's why console gaming is so convenient.
Console gaming has always provided me with quality. Whether it be the convenience, the affordability, and the amazing exclusive games (and multi-platform titles) that get released periodically, it's almost impossible for me to see console gaming die. The large success of the PS4 gives me comfort, and seeing Microsoft aggressively competing makes me even happier. Console gaming is very relevant in 2015...and it'll continue to be many years from now.
I've said this in the past 7 years, but motion ONLY controls and "touch" gaming is killing the quality of this industry.
Specifically mobile/tablets...It's convenient, it's cheap, and it makes a ton of money for developers/publishers....part of me doesn't blame them, they are always in it to make money...and smart phone and tablet users have a combined installment base in the billions. I hope this isn't the case with Nintendo....but when they see the remarkable success in terms of profit with mobile gaming (which they obviously are), I would not be surprised if they exit the console gaming scene completely. I think everyone would agree that the quality of these games feel very watered down in comparison to console gaming on a bigger screen with a controller built specifically for gaming.
Shuhei Yoshida said it best 2 years ago....
As for PC gaming...it's amazing, but it's not for everyone. Main reason being that many people simply can't afford it. Some people would prefer to purchase a $300-400 machine instead that emphasizes solely on gaming and lasts anywhere from 5-10 years. That's why console gaming is so convenient.
Console gaming has always provided me with quality. Whether it be the convenience, the affordability, and the amazing exclusive games (and multi-platform titles) that get released periodically, it's almost impossible for me to see console gaming die. The large success of the PS4 gives me comfort, and seeing Microsoft aggressively competing makes me even happier. Console gaming is very relevant in 2015...and it'll continue to be many years from now.
EventHorizon
Member
This isn't going to happen for the very simple reason that any advantage you could give to a generic PC can also be given to consoles. If for example PC components have a much greater power/cost ratio, consoles can be made with these components too. That is even more likely now since both PlayStation and Xbox have standardized on the x86 platform. There is nothing stopping either from incorporating all PC performance gains while maintaining backwards compatibility. In fact that is exactly what I've said would happen for years now.
Oh, right about now someone will chime in that console can't have more frequent releases. This premise falls apart under the entire weight of the argument that comes along with it. That argument is that PCs will replace consoles. Well if PCs could replace consoles, wouldn't that also imply that people actually wouldn't mind upgrading before a full console generation is up? It is beyond belief that a person would be so against an upgraded console coming out but perfectly fine buying a PC in order to get better performance instead.
Once again, consoles and PC are so tied together that you can't claim an advantage for the PCs that wouldn't also apply to consoles. If PCs can be upgraded near continuously without alienating its users then it is obvious that consoles could do so the much more conservative every few years. If on the other hand there really would be a huge backlash against consoles updating more frequently (which I don't think would happen), then consoles would satisfy a niche that PCs couldn't touch so the whole thing would be moot.
Beyond all that. Console specs can be specifically targeted to games. For example games tend to have a larger GPU requirement then CPU. This will become even more so with DX12. Therefore for a fixed amount of money, a gaming console can have a better price/performance than a general purpose PC. Along with that consoles get economies of scale due to being able to make millions of units with that exact same game optimized spec. Finally even with a more frequent upgrade schedule consoles would have innumerably fewer hardware component combinations. That means that consoles will always be able to be coded more to-the-metal.
Oh, right about now someone will chime in that console can't have more frequent releases. This premise falls apart under the entire weight of the argument that comes along with it. That argument is that PCs will replace consoles. Well if PCs could replace consoles, wouldn't that also imply that people actually wouldn't mind upgrading before a full console generation is up? It is beyond belief that a person would be so against an upgraded console coming out but perfectly fine buying a PC in order to get better performance instead.
Once again, consoles and PC are so tied together that you can't claim an advantage for the PCs that wouldn't also apply to consoles. If PCs can be upgraded near continuously without alienating its users then it is obvious that consoles could do so the much more conservative every few years. If on the other hand there really would be a huge backlash against consoles updating more frequently (which I don't think would happen), then consoles would satisfy a niche that PCs couldn't touch so the whole thing would be moot.
Beyond all that. Console specs can be specifically targeted to games. For example games tend to have a larger GPU requirement then CPU. This will become even more so with DX12. Therefore for a fixed amount of money, a gaming console can have a better price/performance than a general purpose PC. Along with that consoles get economies of scale due to being able to make millions of units with that exact same game optimized spec. Finally even with a more frequent upgrade schedule consoles would have innumerably fewer hardware component combinations. That means that consoles will always be able to be coded more to-the-metal.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
If anything the PC will die before the game console. I mean personal computing (including gaming) is moving to smartphones, tablets, wearables, and even the television (as evidenced by the smart TV movement) and consoles fit right in. Don't get me wrong, the PC will have its place when it comes to content creation of productivity but when it comes to gaming, it'll still be comparatively niche.
More_Badass
Member
If you believe that, you have no clue about mobile gaming. It's thriving with interesting and quality indie games. It's much more than shallow F2P shit
Boombox On
Member
Hyperbole all day baby 100% turn down for what!?
serversurfer
Member
Seems like I see people buying way more iPads at this point. /shrug
So, we agree? For most people and most activities, tablets and smartphones are replacing the conventional computer?
So not only do you agree PCs are mostly going away, you think consoles will help usher them out the door? Yeah, I can buy that. I think "real" computers are returning to the realm of geekery, and the old ideal of a "personal computer" has been pretty much fulfilled by iOS. In fact, I've argued that my iPhone is the most personal computer I've ever owned. Seems like the average person is hip to the idea of specialized devices, and consoles fit nicely in to that mentality.
I mean, I'll always have a real computer or three, but I recognize the fact that I'm a bit of a weirdo.
I think the move to x86 will allow faster increments between consoles hardware while retaining backwards compatibility.
We will get a 'premium' Xbox/Playstation with high specs designed for core gamers, and then the base line standard version that will be the minimum for all games.
We will get a 'premium' Xbox/Playstation with high specs designed for core gamers, and then the base line standard version that will be the minimum for all games.
What I'm saying is that everything is designed to offer the functionality of a traditional computer, with some compromises, as far as the operating system is concerned. Consoles will follow suit, and resemble more of a personal computing experience versus a gaming console experience. All of these devices are personal computers, they just have different form factors. The game console is the outlier because it has the form factor of a PC, but it lacks functionality. Consoles are moving closer to a traditional computing experience, not further away from it. And once Windows 10 is running on the next Xbox, you have a gaming PC being sold by Microsoft. If you think MS isn't moving towards a unified OS accross all of it's devices, you're fooling yourself. See the upcoming surface 3, they completely ditched their rt tablet os.
NoFaceNico
Member
You called?
Well that certainly helped kill Sega's console business in the long run.
Dr. Black Jack
Member
This is the worst thread on GAF.
CadetMahoney
Member
I always thought PC gaming is dead was a main theme, now it's console gaming!
More_Badass
Member
You must have not seen some of the threads linked in "Good examples of thread backfires"