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The future of rpgs?

Bebpo

Banned
Me and Duckroll were lamenting about Shadow Hearts 3 and its weak everything and it got me thinking about what's going to happen to rpgs.

See when the PS2 came out we hit the usually early drought of rpgs as developing an rpg from scratch tends to take companies about 2 full years. So flash forward about two years (or three in the US) and we start getting a flood of high quality rpgs. Suddenly every two months there's some big rpg coming from one of the studios. This continues for about 2 years and everyone is happy...until we hit about 12 months ago.

The market is crashing. In the US non-SquareEnix rpgs sell under 60k basically so the majority of the money that funds future rpg projects come from the sales in Japan. But in the last year or so rpg sales are starting to go really really sour in Japan. If you released a rpg in Japan and it wasn't total crap like Idea Factory games, you could usually count on about 100k sales. If it was part of a long running series you used to be able to count on 130-200k sales. If the game scored really well in the magazines and was hyped you could have 300k+ sales. Hell even Xenosaga did about 450k in Japan. But suddenly in todays market if you make an rpg there's a 90% chance it won't hit 100k even if it's a named series. In fact, rpg sales are circulating more and more around the 50-60k mark which really just doesn't bring in the money. Even Grandia III which is part of a named series and had tons of SquareEnix market only sold 122k on the first weekend and most likely won't ever get above 200k in Japan.

This is bad

See what rpg players have started noticing (and US gamers are about to start noticing) is that this drop in sales is having a huge effect on the budgets publishers are willing to give the development team. When publishers realized their games were only going to sell between 50-100k total they started getting real tight on the money for rpg projects. And we're seeing it in games. All the rpgs coming out feel cheap, they feel like they are lacking in length, dungeons, cutscenes, etc... lots of recycling is being done and most rpgs are starting to just not feel very satisfying because they really do feel rushed and incomplete. Even with series that are doing well such as the Nippon Ichi SRPGs...anyone has played Phantom/Makai Kingdom can tell that the game was done on a much lower budget than their previous titles. All the budgets are going down and rpg quality is taking a huge hit along with it. Most of us thought that with 2005's summer lineup of rpgs like Shadow Hearts 3, Grandia 3, Tales of Legendia, that PS2 was going out with a bang of top-notch rpgs like the PS1 did. But see in the PS1 days, rpg sales were thriving so rpgs were just getting bigger and better....So instead the final year of the PS2 is getting a collection of disappointing low-budget games that just don't live up to what the system was getting in its mid-life.

Ok, then what about the future?

Well this is where everything gets kinda wierd, tricky, and creepy. Basically if the software sales keep going down in Japan, next-gen rpgs are likely to be selling around the 50-70k total mark. But at the same time development costs are going to go up at least somewhat for the next-generation consoles. Also low-budget rpgs at the end of the PS2's life were made possibly by companies relying on engines built earlier in the generation when sales were healthy. But you can't really use these PS2 engines on the PS3/X360. So in order to make your big rpg from scratch it's going to take a sizeable entry budget...even if you're licensing something like the Unreal Engine. Well the money just isn't there. With no assured sales in the west and no assurance of sales in the east, how many publishers besides SquareEnix/Namco are going to really put down that huge sum of starting cash to make an rpg? To fund two years of development for a game that won't even make its money back?

To a degree I would almost think that rpgs are approaching a disappearance along the lines of PC point n' click adventure games. But that doesn't work! Why not? Well the entire gaming market of Japan is based around rpgs. Ask any Japanese person their favorite game genre and 99% of the answers will be the rpg category. Rpgs disappearing in Japan would be like all FPS disappearing in the US except for one or two big companies who can publish them. So then what happens? To a degree the anime industry in Japan was also spiraling downwards like this, but then the US companies stepped in a started co-funding projects due to the popularity of anime in the US. Suddenly the Japanese studios were having the money they needed and the quality of animation jumped back up to its prime. But in the game market were not going to see US companies starting to co-fund Japanese rpg teams because rpgs don't sell in the US. Unlike other genre the Japanese rpg genre is not something that you can just flip a switch and make it appeal to western audiences. So what happens? Could the Japanese government step in and start funding rpg companies? That seems almost too bizarre to actually happen; but hell if they stop making rpgs and there's an increase of suicides in the workplace, maybe it would be worth it for the government to step in a fund stuff. I mean the businessman needs his level grinding when he gets home or else.

All humor and weirdness aside, the rpg genre does seem like it's on a frightening path to extinction. There will always be a few companies that figure out how to make great games while minimizing spending such as the Megaten team or Nippon-Ichi. But quite frankly while it's great having those fantastic games, as an avid rpg gamer I miss my epic 50-60 hour long high-budget adventures with gorgeous graphics, varied locations, tons of original enemies and dungeons, and lots of plot and character development...but besides the occasional FF game from SE...will we ever see another one of these games once we hit next-gen? Who will payroll these epic great rpgs that cost 20 million+? I really don't want my rpg future to be filled with letdown after letdown after letdown. Besides Digital Devil Saga: Avatar Tuner 2, 2005 in Japan has been a complete disaster in the rpg genre and the info from Famitsu on Legendia doesn't sound like it's going to get any better any time soon.

At this point I will just cling to the hope that FFXII will be the epic amazing rpg we've been waiting to end the generation on. If it fails...well I think I may be turning in my jacket finding a new hobby :\
 
Wait, so SH3 is not good???



I see more lower/mid budget RPGs being made for PSP/DS/mobile, while SquareEnix/Namco/Sony/MS bankroll some of the bigger budget ones for next gen consoles.
 
Issuing multiplatform releases might help with the sales issue. Then again it may not. I just think we need more Earthbound, Persona and Shadowrun games.
 
SH3 is an ok for a generic rpg, but it's not the non-cliche interesting rpg that SH2 was or even SH1. Me and Duckroll are both near the end and going to marathon it in the next day or two but I'll write a full review when I'm done. For now I'll just say it's a step back in every single category besides the battle system from SH2 and that the encounter rate is Megaten "every 5 steps" style in order to pad the short short length of the game which pisses me off quite a bit.
 
SH3 is good, it's just far from great. The first few hours are awesome, but the game doesn't keep the pace. It's still fun and there are some cool stuff but overall it's going to end up being way too short and the story is too fucking basic/generic. SH2 > SH1 > SH3.
 
The solution, IMO, is simple. Make JRPGs less predictable in their general design and theme. Also, western RPGs are still doing quite fine considering.
 
trippingmartian said:
Issuing multiplatform releases might help with the sales issue. Then again it may not. I just think we need more Earthbound, Persona and Shadowrun games.

Multi-platform is pointless for Jrpgs. No one buys them in the west, so multiple sales won't add much and in the east everyone just owns a single system so they might as well just make it for that.
 
This is what happens when you beat the same horse to death for 15 years and offer gimmick "systems" with every release. Young effeminate guy carrying a sword that is much too big for him goes out on an adventure where he meets other sexually ambiguous characters in a bright and colorful world that is pleasent even though there is terrible evil where monsters suddenly appear and all creatures have gold coins and other items hidden on them.

Or the American version...click click click click click or D&D rules for everything, even if it is Star Wars.
 
MightyHedgehog said:
The solution, IMO, is simple. Make JRPGs less predictable in their general design and theme. Also, western RPGs are still doing quite fine considering.

Say for the sake of not wanting to move this thread into a different discussion that I agree with you that Japanese rpgs are predictable. Do you really think making them non-cliche and awesome would increase the sales? I don't believe (especially concerning rpgs in the west) that quality has anything to do with sales (as opposed to marketing). So I don't really see this working.

Western rpgs are doing fine because the western gaming audience is willing to play a western looking rpg by a western developer. How many people who own an xbox would've been willing to buy Shin Megami Tensei 9 over KoTOR if SMT9 had come to the US? Unless you want Japanese teams to start using western artists to do all their models/textures, people will be able to differentiate from a western and eastern rpg when looking at a box and I don't see people buying Jrpgs over Western ones anytime soon in the US.
 
Warm Machine said:
This is what happens when you beat the same horse to death for 15 years and offer gimmick "systems" with every release. Young effeminate guy carrying a sword that is much too big for him goes out on an adventure where he meets other sexually ambiguous characters in a bright and colorful world that is pleasent even though there is terrible evil where monsters suddenly appear and all creatures have gold coins and other items hidden on them.

Or the American version...click click click click click or D&D rules for everything, even if it is Star Wars.

As opposed to Platformers where you still jump (oh wait, now you shoot things! while jumping) or FPS games where you still run down hallways and shoot at things that jump out?

A Genre is a general mold and of course the games that fall into them will share similarities to a degree.
 
I think one possible solution is that instead of looking at how sales can be dramatically increased to justify higher budget JRPGs, that JRPG developers learn new ways to develop JRPGs that are fun and still look great while being cost-effective. Looking at Atlus and Nippon-Ichi is a good start. As long as the games stay profitable, the developers can continue providing fun. :D
 
Bebpo said:
As opposed to Platformers where you still jump (oh wait, now you shoot things! while jumping) or FPS games where you still run down hallways and shoot at things that jump out?

A Genre is a general mold and of course the games that fall into them will share similarities to a degree.

You're comparing the mechanics of a genre, with the Architypal storyline of a nother genre. I don't think they fit. Personaly the decline of sales has to do with the fact that RPG's are seeming more and more similar, so its like, why should I buy the new one, "did I just play this?" Or maybe its because you said, that budgets are getting smaller, a wierd catch-22 set up, where the publishers won't give the money, so the game won't sell, so the publisher won't give the money.

But then again, you basically said anyone with an Xbox wouldn't buy a JRPG, I'm glad you can label me like that. I didn't realize the X in xbox stood for Xenophobia.
 
sp0rsk said:
how about hiring people who arent nerds.

or people who are actually writers.

Funny you should say that. JRPGs that actually had real writers (novel authors or movie screenplay writers) always sold MUCH less than the flashier "written-like-anime-reject" counterparts (Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, previous Grandias, Lunar, etc). So that really has pretty much zero bearing on why JRPGs are selling much much less now. The market is basically saturated and people in general no longer want to buy anything other than brand names. The only solution is to get more cost-effective instead of hoping to get MORE sales by spending more on flashy CG FMV and expensive licensed songs. Basically if you're not FF or DQ at this point, you have no chance so trying to be something similar will fail.
 
duckroll said:
I think one possible solution is that instead of looking at how sales can be dramatically increased to justify higher budget JRPGs, that JRPG developers learn new ways to develop JRPGs that are fun and still look great while being cost-effective. Looking at Atlus and Nippon-Ichi is a good start. As long as the games stay profitable, the developers can continue providing fun. :D

Well one thing I kinda meant to mention in the original post is that the stuff that takes up the most money (CGs mainly, then voice acting I guess) are needed because that's how they get those 70-90k sales. They sell the game using the CG and voices in the commercials. I bet publishers figure if they have no CG for the commercials, then the games would be selling even less (like 30-50k) so they waste tons of budget on stupid CG FMV that's not needed; meanwhile the team doesn't have enough money to finish the main game.

The only real way to make profitable low-budget rpgs is to recycle. DDS is like 90% enemies ripped straight from SMT3, same engine, and no voice acting. Nippon-Ichi rips and slightly modifies most of their sprites between games. And this recycling is just not going to work at the start of next-gen when there's NOTHING TO RECYCLE ^^;
 
flarkminator said:
But then again, you basically said anyone with an Xbox wouldn't buy a JRPG, I'm glad you can label me like that. I didn't realize the X in xbox stood for Xenophobia.

Actually he basically said that most people would've taken KOTOR over SMT9 if it had come out in the US, which is sad but very very true.
 
I used to be a pretty big RPG gamer, but in recent years, I realized I just wanted more action out of my games. People used to say "well, isn't every game an RPG?" since you're always playing the role of *someone.* In a way, I think that games are moving in that direction, except its more literal. They are actually incorporating RPG *mechanics.* I've been enjoying myself a lot more playing action-RPGs or RPGs action/adventure games with RPG elements than I have traditional RPGs. There's little holding these games back in terms of long dialogues or cutscenes. Instead, you get a lot of action, combat which usually requires some thought/skill, and the character-upgrading/experience system that makes RPGs so addictive in the first place.

I can still stomach a traditional RPG here and there, but I've been letting the vast majority of them stay off my radar for awhile now.
 
flarkminator said:
But then again, you basically said anyone with an Xbox wouldn't buy a JRPG, I'm glad you can label me like that. I didn't realize the X in xbox stood for Xenophobia.

Well I don't mean everyone. I just mean that if you look at the actual sales numbers of Japanese rpgs in the west (not just xbox, but PS2 and GC also); western people don't buy Jrpgs. Sure a lot of people here on GAF look beyond the shell and enjoy Japanese games, but in general going by sales charts Americans just don't buy Jrpgs.
 
Exactly why we are getting so many sequels to RPGs, because it secures sale...

How many Tales games now are on PS2? 5? Compare this to last gen, there was barely 3?

Why is SE remaking Romancing Saga? Probably because of the same reason.


[wishful thinking]Hey, maybe if the Revolution isn't a graphics monster, then most companys can reuse their existing graphics engine on it. That means Revolution is going to be the king platform for RPGs come next-gen![/wishful thinking]


Or there's always DS and next-gen gameboy to rely on...
 
So instead the final year of the PS2 is getting a collection of disappointing low-budget games that just don't live up to what the system was getting in its mid-life.

Actually I was thinking just the opposite. Where were the lavish productions like Grandia III, DQ8, KH II, Rogue Galaxy, and FFXII during the PS2's prime? Thats an onslaught of big budget JRPGs getting developed back to back for the PS2's twilight.
 
SailorDaravon said:
Actually he basically said that most people would've taken KOTOR over SMT9 if it had come out in the US, which is sad but very very true.

But I hate star wars :D


Edit: What about Rogue Galaxy
 
Bebpo said:
Well one thing I kinda meant to mention in the original post is that the stuff that takes up the most money (CGs mainly, then voice acting I guess) are needed because that's how they get those 70-90k sales. They sell the game using the CG and voices in the commercials. I bet publishers figure if they have no CG for the commercials, then the games would be selling even less (like 30-50k) so they waste tons of budget on stupid CG FMV that's not needed; meanwhile the team doesn't have enough money to finish the main game.

And that's an error in the marketing mentality imo. The people that will buy a game simply because of flashy FMV in a CM don't justify the cost of the CG FMV in the first place. Looking at sales of games like Xenosaga, Shadow Hearts and Baten Kaitos, you can't tell me that they've done better (forget MUCH better) than games like Disgaea/Phantom Brave/Phantom Kingdom and Digital Devil Saga, which have pretty much ZERO CG FMV. The music is also all in-house, as opposed to say the Hyde song they licensed for the Baten Kaitos CM.

The only real way to make profitable low-budget rpgs is to recycle. DDS is like 90% enemies ripped straight from SMT3, same engine, and no voice acting. Nippon-Ichi rips and slightly modifies most of their sprites between games. And this recycling is just not going to work at the start of next-gen when there's NOTHING TO RECYCLE ^^;

DDS has no voice acting? ^^;

I think you meant SMT3. :D
 
in search of a broader audience, and answering the possibilities of new technology, future rpgs will minimize atavistic rpg elements and take on action elements, thus grading into the genre we now call "adventure," just as the modern action game has assimilated the beatemup. the two remaining supergenres -- adventurpg and beatemaction -- will subsequently congeal, creating a monolithic ubergenre. it's inevitable.
 
SailorDaravon said:
Actually he basically said that most people would've taken KOTOR over SMT9 if it had come out in the US, which is sad but very very true.

Why the hell is that sad? KotOR is a hundred times the game SMT NINE is. And this is coming from a huge SMT fan, who owns and played BOTH games. :(
 
hukasmokincaterpillar said:
Actually I was thinking just the opposite. Where were the lavish productions like Grandia III, DQ8, KH II, Rogue Galaxy, and FFXII during the PS2's prime? Thats an onslaught of big budget JRPGs getting developed back to back for the PS2's twilight.

Well I haven't got a chance to get into Grandia III so I'm just going by Shouta's posts which make it sound a bit disappointing. DQVIII is really good! But it's already the past for importers. I don't count KHII or Rogue Galaxy because frankly while I enjoy ARPGs they don't give me my traditional rpg fix that I enjoy. So for importers that just leaves FFXII and the new Megaten game (though that could be an ARPG at this point...early shots were confusing) until the X360/PS3.
 
SailorDaravon said:
Actually he basically said that most people would've taken KOTOR over SMT9 if it had come out in the US, which is sad but very very true.

It's not like KOTOR was a terrible game, far from it. It won GOTY for good reason. KOTOR is kickass game and critically acclaimed, nothing wrong with that.
 
duckroll said:
Why the hell is that sad? KotOR is a hundred times the game SMT NINE is. And this is coming from a huge SMT fan, who owns and played BOTH games. :(

Well I meant more sad in principle. I haven't played 9, although it's a shame to hear that it sucks =/. Also Homer, I didn't care too much for KOTOR at all =p.
 
Yeah, KoTOR is pretty solid and SMT9 sucks. But the idea is that at least IMO with rpgs, quality has no bearing on sales so I just meant the western gamer picking up the boxes of both games would be more likely to go with the Star Wars one over some weird Japanese title.
 
While it may not be a solution, at this point I don't think it would hurt Japanese developers/publishers to try and shake the conventions up. JRPGs are really becoming far too conventionalised. I also think they have to put some serious research (and not just some broad generalised stereotypical view) into what western players want from an rpg. If big-eyed, blue-haired effeminate males carrying large swords on epic quests that take them from their quiet peaceful home towns over the expanse of a world before confronting the main evil guy, who's morphed into some tentacled mutant, in a fight that takes place in some other dimension where the patches of land float above a swirling void.

Also more interaction with the world. Make a JRPG that's a real explorathon, with a proper z-axis and fluid field controls.
 
Maybe they just had too much of this genre of games and should focus on some other genre.
Damn i wish this happens to FPS in America one day!
 
SailorDaravon said:
Well I meant more sad in principle. I haven't played 9, although it's a shame to hear that it sucks =/. Also Homer, I didn't care too much for KOTOR at all =p.

Statement still stands for how KOTOR was generally received.
 
The way I view the general JRPG is that it's more reliant on presentation and story (and the ever increasing production costs that go into that), while the core gameplay and design is relatively ancient in execution and scope. The game execution hasn't changed much because players are too busy talking about the story and presentation...which, while still important, is not, IMO, the most important thing in a story-based game. If there was really so much importance in the game's story characters, why would anyone play RPGs when they could read a book or watch a film or play? Why the extra work to just focus on the unfolding events? This is where the JRPG started its change in focus...and it was games like FFVII that helped to start it's downward spiral. The only way to slow it down is to pour more money into their production values...and that can't keep happening forever, especially with the Japanese market still in a slump and all the kiddies there turning to cell phone games and such. The other problem, and this is my own personal irritation with the ones I've played, is that character development, general plot design, and basic gameplay are all the same, give or take a few relatively minor differences between them all.

Pre-FFVII and others, RPGs still focused more on the core of the gameplay and more interesting ways to tell a story because they had no other choice...they didn't have the capability to put up CG-like visuals and focus on 15-minute to hour+ long passive storytelling bullshit to make you wonder why it's even been made an interactive 'experience.' I don't think all JRPGs are bad, but most of them feel samey without even having spent any time with them. They, for me, lack some kind of hook that makes me care about going on yet another save the world adventure with pre-teens with supernatural powers.

In the end, my biggest problems with them lies in the lack of innovation in interaction, choice, and feedback in these worlds. It's kinda like having bigger and better theme park rides, but after the one-hundredth one or so, you've seen all there is to see...only the aethestics change.
 
So what happens? Could the Japanese government step in and start funding rpg companies? That seems almost too bizarre to actually happen; but hell if they stop making rpgs and there's an increase of suicides in the workplace, maybe it would be worth it for the government to step in a fund stuff
link.marijuana.jpg

roll one for me too Bebpo! ;)
 
After thinking about it, I personally think that this issue is really not just with RPGs, but with the Japanese game market as a whole...

People in Japan are just not buying games that is not an already established franchise...


EDIT:
One game just popped into my mind. Baten Kaitos.

Such a wonderful game. I wonder why it still isn't ported to the PS2 yet?

This is really what I am talking about. People are not buying RPGs that are really really good since it is new to them.
 
Is it really fair to discount all ARPGs. Some are obviously MORE action than RPG. Maybe thats where all the sales are going, its an interesting thought.
 
The demi factor will not be pleased about Shadow Hearts 3.


drohne said:
in search of a broader audience, and answering the possibilities of new technology, future rpgs will minimize atavistic rpg elements and take on action elements, thus grading into the genre we now call "adventure," just as the modern action game has assimilated the beatemup. the two remaining supergenres -- adventurpg and beatemaction -- will subsequently congeal, creating a monolithic ubergenre. it's inevitable.


I'm looking forward to this day.

For the most part I'm absolutely sick of random enemy turn based combat. It feels so archaic. I don't mind have turn based battles when I can see the enemies on screen and avoid them. But when you don't know when they are coming it gets annoying. Most RPG combat systems are boring, too. I love the combat system in Grandia series, though. My favorite of any RPG.

I wouldn't say RPGs don't sell in NA. KOTOR, KOTOR II sold well and so did Elder Scrolls Morrowind. Actually Elder Scrolls has sold multi million. Fable also sold over 1 million too in the USA alone. While Fable is more of an action/adventure the game does have role playing elements. PC RPG games tend to sell decently, too. I think the biggest problem with Japan RPGs is that most of them focus too much on the local market and don't think enough about overseas. Like you mentioned, most companies don't have the luxary that Square Enix does in translating games to the North American market. On the console side, Square is practically synonomous with RPGs. Heck, I think Star Ocean 3 is over 400K in North America. It is a Greatest Hits title now. The Square touch obviously helped there. I don't think SO2 came close in sales. It'll be interesting when DQ8 comes out. SE has taken a lot of time translating and adjusting the game for the NA audience. We'll see if the Square touch rubs off again.
 
flarkminator said:
Is it really fair to discount all ARPGs. Some are obviously MORE action than RPG. Maybe thats where all the sales are going, its an interesting thought.

Brave Fencer Musashiden II sold like 50k in Japan a month ago. This was a heavily advertised Square-Enix game with tons of commercials. Famitsu even gave it a decent score. ARPGs aren't selling any better.
 
Bebpo said:
I think you'll like DQVIII

I'm looking forward to it. But I still don't think it's quite what I'm getting at. As far as I gleen from impressions, the exploration is more about the size of the world. What I want is an rpg with a jump button, and not that FFX-2 (and others) context badly-animated, clunky jumping. An rpg, where instead of crossing a mountain by taking the handily, gently inclined mountain slope, you have to clambour and climb over it proper.

Also (this goes for almost all games actually) less bloody mutants please. I would like, just once, a decent-budget rpg, with a well-written, political based plot, that only involves human enemies, no wolfs, no dragons, no floating eyes with wings. Instead of an overpowered boss, the final battle would be an rpg take on having several thousand soldiers clashing in combat. No time travel, no other dimension, no dark power sealed for a thousand generations that's about to be unleashed. Hell, for a real challenge, how about no magic in the game world at all. Basically strip away everything that has become conventionalised about the genre, to reinvigorate it.
 
In that case, I'd have to go with Saturation of the market, coupled with declining ingenuity. Maybe added a dash of lowered funds for seasoning.
 
Bebpo said:
Brave Fencer Musashiden II sold like 50k in Japan a month ago. This was a heavily advertised Square-Enix game with tons of commercials. Famitsu even gave it a decent score. ARPGs aren't selling any better.

Well, i don't know if this game is any indication for the genre. I could say the action rpg is very healty if i take Zelda as a exemple.
Musashi the first wasn't a great game to begin with. It has been popular more because it's Squaresoft than anything else. But people generally won't get screwed many times. Musashi 2 isn't selling? i'm not surprised, it's not better than the first one and the only ones who bought it are probably the ones who actually like the first. And as we see, they are very few.
 
Bebpo said:
Brave Fencer Musashiden II sold like 50k in Japan a month ago. This was a heavily advertised Square-Enix game with tons of commercials. Famitsu even gave it a decent score. ARPGs aren't selling any better.


Is this a bad thing, though? The game got average scores in the USA. Game is pretty mediocre. No wonder Square Enix launched this game in NA first. Last time Square launched a game first in NA was Secret of Evermore and that was mediocre too.
 
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