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[Musky_Cheese]

I'll start with him immediately kissing her, grabbing her breast, and undressing her without asking. Then I'll say she said let's relax. Then I'll start with him ignoring that and kissing her and performing oral sex on her anyway.

Dude you just aren’t getting it. It’s not that he isn’t guilty of wrongdoing. It’s just that he isn’t alone in it.

He didn’t get a clear yes. She didn’t give a clear no.

You treating this adult woman as a small child isn’t a good thing.

 

[caffeware]

Its why other-other forums watched the posting of "old-Gaf" cause this place was a mess.

Hello Dennis.

 

[Xfader]

"Why don't girls just say no?"

I don't know, let's ask a psychologist.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/smart-relationships/201311/why-women-have-hard-time-saying-no

So your defense is women are weak. LOL. Brilliant. What a load of bullshit. If she had the courage to basically stalk him and get him to go on a date with her, she should have the fucking courage to say stop or walk out. Stop making excuses for her bad behavior.

 

[Vicetrailia]

I’d rather not waste my time visiting that place. I’ll put my hand up that. But you’d be stupid to deny that the community doesn’t trash talk NeoGAF.

Real talk, they don't give a shit about neogaf and don't have a victim complex against this site.

They don't rant about gaf like you do about them on here. They got over it, and from the beginning mods moderate against any old drama. Just move on already, they have.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

So your defense is women are weak. LOL. Brilliant. What a load of bullshit. If she had the courage to basically stalk him and get him to go on a date with her, she should have the fucking courage to say stop or walk out. Stop making excuses for her bad behavior.

Exactly why many women in the media are standing against the story and Grace.

 

[Beard of the Forest]

Let's keep this discussion civil and on topic.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

I have spent some time today trying to seek out opinions from places I don’t normally look. I can’t say I have seen the view except in doctor offices.

 

[OrionFalls]

I have spent some time today trying to seek out opinions from places I don’t normally look. I can’t say I have seen the view except in doctor offices.

I’m not American, so have never watched it or even had the chance to, but I agree 100% with them. This was not sexual assault. Grace went voluntarily and consented to oral sex. Done and done.

 

[finowns]

I think the woman is dumb but I appreciate she didn't oversell the story, I imagine that would be easy to do. People have to stop looking for society to save them, there has to be personal responsibility.

 

[AfricanKing]

This whole situation is fucked up lets be honest here. She claims she was sexually assaulted yet has not gone to the police, she choose to use the media as her persecutor which is a disgrace.

 

[Grinchy]

Oh look, another sociology department treating women like children that can't take responsibility for their actions or lack thereof. Who's fault is it that this woman couldn't express herself, it's men's and society's!

So based on that logic let's examine another example, who's fault is that a violent man killed someone in a bar fight? It's society because it expects men to be tough and defend themselves! Freedom to violent criminals!

Yeah, sociology is such a joke. I had to take the intro class as one of my general requirements, and literally every single subject boiled down to the notion that nobody is at fault for what they do because white men caused them to do it.

 

[Super Mario]

Yeah, sociology is such a joke. I had to take the intro class as one of my general requirements, and literally every single subject boiled down to the notion that nobody is at fault for what they do because white men caused them to do it.

It's a "science" that is quoted only when convenient

 

[OrionFalls]

Us white men are at fault for everything.

 

[Amibguous Cad]

Setting aside the question of whether it's rape, can we at least agree that it's a scummy thing to do?

She repeatedly tries to get some distance, asking that they watch a TV show, or relax with their clothes on, stuff like that. Aziz is back to groping her within minutes of agreeing to it. I find it hard to believe that he, or anyone, is missing that signal. He says he's willing to respect her boundaries at one moment, and within a few minutes he's he's sticking his cock near her face or something equally bad. It's pretty clear that he said whatever he can do to get her to stay and maybe she'll just acquiesce on the sixth time he tries to make a pass.

The first time I had sex, I was kind of a mess. I was so scared I was shaking, but I was too far out of it to even communicate that I was in a really bad place. My boyfriend, to his credit, noticed that and asked me if I wanted to stop, and I said yes.

I don't think he would have been a rapist if he'd continued. But he'd at least be an asshole. If you notice your partner is uncomfortable, stop and check in. My life was better because he made that decision. If we can get more men to make that decision, I think relationships would be in a much better place. I feel like this shouldn't be controversial, even if we're divided on whether not doing that is worth criminal penalties or not.

So maybe it's not rape, but it's not an "unpleasant date" either. Aziz is someone comfortable with walking right up to the line of rape without crossing it. He's not seeking a collaboration, he's a used car salesman - anything to get to yes, even if it means browbeating or overwhelming the person you're selling to (well, actually he's more trying to get to "not no" than "yes"). If this is indicative of his normal behavior, he hurts the majority of his sexual partners.

 

[lucius]

Two articles I read said he kept grabbing her hand to put it on his penis multiple times when she didn't want to do that and that she did say no . I don’t understand why some are trying to say he wasn’t in a position of power when he just won I think his 2nd Emmy when they met .

 

[finowns]

Two articles I read said he kept grabbing her hand to put it on his penis multiple times when she didn't want to do that and that she did say no . I don’t understand why some are trying to say he wasn’t in a position of power when he just won I think his 2nd Emmy when they met .

He wasn't in a position of power he had no control over her.

 

[DiscoJer]

I dunno about position of power, but I think being a celebrity gives a person a different perspective on what women want from you. It's like a groupie going back to the hotel room of a musician. It's kinda expected they will have sex with that musician. I mean, they still have the right to say "No" and leave, but they shouldn't be shocked when the musician wants to have sex, and only sex, with them, and not watch TV.

I think in this case, he thought that's what she wanted - to have sex with a celebrity. But she seemed to want a relationship from him. Which I don't think was realistic on her part, especially as she seemed to actively seek an encounter with him, as opposed to it happening more organically.

 

[Dunki]

Setting aside the question of whether it's rape, can we at least agree that it's a scummy thing to do?

She repeatedly tries to get some distance, asking that they watch a TV show, or relax with their clothes on, stuff like that. Aziz is back to groping her within minutes of agreeing to it. I find it hard to believe that he, or anyone, is missing that signal. He says he's willing to respect her boundaries at one moment, and within a few minutes he's he's sticking his cock near her face or something equally bad. It's pretty clear that he said whatever he can do to get her to stay and maybe she'll just acquiesce on the sixth time he tries to make a pass.

The first time I had sex, I was kind of a mess. I was so scared I was shaking, but I was too far out of it to even communicate that I was in a really bad place. My boyfriend, to his credit, noticed that and asked me if I wanted to stop, and I said yes.

I don't think he would have been a rapist if he'd continued. But he'd at least be an asshole. If you notice your partner is uncomfortable, stop and check in. My life was better because he made that decision. If we can get more men to make that decision, I think relationships would be in a much better place. I feel like this shouldn't be controversial, even if we're divided on whether not doing that is worth criminal penalties or not.

So maybe it's not rape, but it's not an "unpleasant date" either. Aziz is someone comfortable with walking right up to the line of rape without crossing it. He's not seeking a collaboration, he's a used car salesman - anything to get to yes, even if it means browbeating or overwhelming the person you're selling to (well, actually he's more trying to get to "not no" than "yes"). If this is indicative of his normal behavior, he hurts the majority of his sexual partners.

I have no problem with calling him an insensitive asshole bad lover etc. sure. But what she did was a career destroying move and thats far too much. As Banfield that. what he deserved was blue balls and not a Hollywood blacklist. And lets make everything clear he did understand how she felt it the next day when she told it to him.

Also by using the #metoo movement she has also ridiculed every victim and women who was fighting for such a movement. What she had was an asshole and a bad date that can and mostly will happen to everyone men or women at some point. And that is why she gets so much backlash for this. Let me quote something I thought was very fitting.

As this Aziz Ansari situation shows, feminism says women are strong enough to make their own decisions regarding their sexuality, but not strong enough to say "no" when they mean "no," and so weak they quickly acquiesce to any sexual requests from men in the name of empowerment.

and

Women can withdraw consent at anytime during a sexual encounter. Co-sign strongly. What I'm arguing for, in part, is creating a culture where women feel empowered to do that out loud.

Modern feminism infantilizes women and we need to change this. Stop being a victim stand up for yourself. Again Banfield said it best. She should have gone way sooner he NEVER hold her against own will in the end he even called her an uber. She should have just stood up and go. It is not worth dating such a man.

Just watch this open letter since it really covers everything I can not say in the right language/words.

 

[caffeware]

She repeatedly tries to get some distance, asking that they watch a TV show, or relax with their clothes on, stuff like that. Aziz is back to groping her within minutes of agreeing to it. I find it hard to believe that he, or anyone, is missing that signal. He says he's willing to respect her boundaries at one moment, and within a few minutes he's he's sticking his cock near her face or something equally bad. It's pretty clear that he said whatever he can do to get her to stay and maybe she'll just acquiesce on the sixth time he tries to make a pass.

Pro tip: When a guy is beyond certain point, the only thing that will stop him from trying to have sex is orgasm.

Don't expect a guy to just stop, watch a movie and cuddle if hes horny.

If your not feeling it, just leave.

 

[jdouglas]

.

 

[Hissing Sid]

Pro tip: When a guy is beyond certain point, the only thing that will stop him from trying to have sex is orgasm.

Patently absurd. As anyone who’s had their kids walk in on them while they are on the job can attest to.

 

[caffeware]

Patently absurd. As anyone who’s had their kids walk in on them while they are on the job can attest to.

Close the door.

 

[Atrus]

Human beings typically assent to sex and adults have the capacity to say no and physically remove themselves from an uncomfortable situatuon.
If you are incapable of saying 'no' and have no disabilities preventing you from such, then you are not mentally an adult.

Any movement or ideology that deems women incapable of being adults that can remove themselves from hazards or speaking 'no', only fosters the idea that being a woman is a disability.

 

[CampbellzSoup]

The court of SJW is even turning on “me too”....shocking.

Sorry folks this young lady crossed a line in the movement.

A grown fucking woman made grown choices...women aren’t children, and because she felt uncomfortable afterwards does not allow her to withdraw consent a day later.

 

[Amibguous Cad]

I have no problem with calling him an insensitive asshole bad lover etc. sure. But what she did was a career destroying move and thats far too much. As Banfield that. what he deserved was blue balls and not a Hollywood blacklist. And lets make everything clear he did understand how she felt it the next day when she told it to him.

Don't you think Aziz should take responsibility for his actions? I may have been too lenient on him when I said it was an asshole move - it's more like it's unreasonably reckless. If you listen to the women who have been through similar things, these actions can do some real damage, maybe not all the time, but enough of the time. So it's maybe closer to driving drunk with a friend (while insisting that you're not). Drunk driving is easier to punish with the law because there's a bright line between drunk and sober driving, and there may never be a practical legal standard to hold people like Aziz accountable, but the level of harm risked in both is substantial.

So given that, like... you should never be close to that line. No one disputes the facts at play here; this isn't a false accusation so much as it's one where the significance of it is disputed. And in that case, I really, super do not feel any sympathy for the men caught out. If women go home with strange men, sometimes they get raped. If men treat women like shit, sometimes their careers get ruined by women going public with their borderline behavior. If you don't want your career ruined, don't get so close to the line. It's that simple. And it's no more unjust than the fact that women have to protect themselves from predators, and sometimes fail.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Human beings typically assent to sex and adults have the capacity to say no and physically remove themselves from an uncomfortable situatuon.
If you are incapable of saying 'no' and have no disabilities preventing you from such, then you are not mentally an adult.

Any movement or ideology that deems women incapable of being adults that can remove themselves from hazards or speaking 'no', only fosters the idea that being a woman is a disability.

This and reality are highly fallible. Actions have consequences and power corrupts. But in this scenario no would have sufficed. Aziz isn't a bad person, but he does have Hollywood syndrome.

 

[JORMBO]

I have never heard of this guy prior to this story. He sounds a bit agressive but there was nothing stopping her from leaving. I think this should have been handled in private between both of them and not posted all over the media.

 

[Dunki]

Don't you think Aziz should take responsibility for his actions? I may have been too lenient on him when I said it was an asshole move - it's more like it's unreasonably reckless. If you listen to the women who have been through similar things, these actions can do some real damage, maybe not all the time, but enough of the time. So it's maybe closer to driving drunk with a friend (while insisting that you're not). Drunk driving is easier to punish with the law because there's a bright line between drunk and sober driving, and there may never be a practical legal standard to hold people like Aziz accountable, but the level of harm risked in both is substantial.

So given that, like... you should never be close to that line. No one disputes the facts at play here; this isn't a false accusation so much as it's one where the significance of it is disputed. And in that case, I really, super do not feel any sympathy for the men caught out. If women go home with strange men, sometimes they get raped. If men treat women like shit, sometimes their careers get ruined by women going public with their borderline behavior. If you don't want your career ruined, don't get so close to the line. It's that simple. And it's no more unjust than the fact that women have to protect themselves from predators, and sometimes fail.

He also was shocked the other day when she texted him and he also texted her privately etc.. You can just not expect everyone to read the mood people are in. Especially in such a "heated" moment. If you feel uncomfortable SAY IT and go. If she would have said no and went out there he would have not stop her at all. Furthermore I think that what she did was destroying his whole life for not being able to read the mood. And I will say this as someone who was sexual mollested as a child. He was not at one point in a possession of power. He never has threaten her if she does not have sex with him etc. He just could not read the mood and he was pushy yes.

As for your example with drunk driving. The moment you step into the car of a drunk person you are automatically responsible for your own actions. It is on you that you went into the car. If you feel uncomfortable do not step into the car. If you feel uncomfortable during the drive. Tell the person to stop and get out of the car. You are responsible for your own actions and she was in control of her own actions. He never forced/threaten her. She could have stand up and go at any time. So yes I think it is unfair that he alone takes the blame. Both people made mistakes and you should discuss this in private which they did. To go to the press and even use this hastag was vile IMO and the only reason she did this was to destroy his Life.

 

[Mahadev]

Yeah, sociology is such a joke. I had to take the intro class as one of my general requirements, and literally every single subject boiled down to the notion that nobody is at fault for what they do because white men caused them to do it.

It used to be an actual field that was exploring human society, relationships and interactions as objectively as possible and it still is in some countries. The fact that it has been taken over by dogmatic ideologues makes it useless just like many economics departments are useless nowadays that have been taken over by neoliberals.

 

[llien]

Pro tip: When a guy is beyond certain point, the only thing that will stop him from trying to have sex is orgasm.

Bar that what you are stating is borderline insulting to me (a man), FFS, she was standing bent over, naked, in front of him.
Said no, I'm not ready for this.
He stopped.
They got dressed.

Could we please at least learn what events had happened, before coming up with explanations.

 

[BANGS]

 

[Amibguous Cad]

As for your example with drunk driving. The moment you step into the car of a drunk person you are automatically responsible for your own actions. It is on you that you went into the car. If you feel uncomfortable do not step into the car. If you feel uncomfortable during the drive. Tell the person to stop and get out of the car. You are responsible for your own actions and she was in control of her own actions. He never forced/threaten her. She could have stand up and go at any time. So yes I think it is unfair that he alone takes the blame. Both people made mistakes and you should discuss this in private which they did. To go to the press and even use this hastag was vile IMO and the only reason she did this was to destroy his Life.

But how can you expect someone to read the signals? They never SAID they were drunk. Sometimes people just miss out on these things! Her life shouldn't be destroyed just because she couldn't tell whether he was drunk!

...But in all seriousness, this is far from "not reading the mood."

Ansari also physically pulled her hand towards his penis multiple times throughout the night, from the time he first kissed her on the countertop onward. “He probably moved my hand to his dick five to seven times,” she said. “He really kept doing it after I moved it away.”

But the main thing was that he wouldn’t let her move away from him. She compared the path they cut across his apartment to a football play. “It was 30 minutes of me getting up and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down my throat again. It was really repetitive. It felt like a fucking game.”

That's not missing the signals, that's intentionally not getting the hint and hoping that she's too timid to say no if you keep doing it. It's very, very difficult to believe that Aziz didn't know that she wanted out at this point. And if he didn't? If you're that obtuse and can't read basic body language, don't fucking have rough sex without discussing it with a person you just met. If he is not an adult who can control his own actions, he shouldn't be having sex in the first place.

Also, like, seriously, who the hell does the claw without talking to their partner about it first?

 

[Dunki]

But how can you expect someone to read the signals? They never SAID they were drunk. Sometimes people just miss out on these things! Her life shouldn't be destroyed just because she couldn't tell whether he was drunk!

...But in all seriousness, this is far from "not reading the mood."

I am sorry. But in her situation she knew EXACTLY what he wanted in this night. She knew exactly what he wanted after she gave him like 3? blowjobs? If we compare it again with the drunk driving. It would have been like that. They went together to a party she saw him drink and even gave him a few shots and then gave him the keys for the car.. SHE knew exactly that he could not drive anymore.

Also Yes sometimes people miss out on these things just like Aziz did. Why should his life get destroyed for it? AGain he did not force her to do anything. He did not threaten her at all. And you would be surprised what some people do in their first night. I am sorry but I can not make him a predator in this case.

In the end I even agree that he should not have sex if he cant read the signs. But I am against him getting his life destroyed because he is terrible at reading peoples mood and at sex.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

I have to assume she still has all the texts. It would be beneficial if she released them.

The reality is the texts could shed more light on why his assumptions of sex were incorrect or correct.

As in he rushed through dinner because of all the sexting. Or he could have been completely nice with no mention of anything sexual. And if that was the case, he would seem more of a bullshit artist.

But it’s hard without all the necessary information to come to a definitive conclusion.

 

[Amibguous Cad]

I am sorry. But in her situation she knew EXACTLY what he wanted in this night.

But how can you expect her to read the signals? She's not a mind reader!

 

[Dunki]

But how can you expect her to read the signals? She's not a mind reader!

Because he SAID it. Multiple times She had to be deaf to not understand this.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

Because he SAID it. Multiple times She had to be deaf to not understand this.

http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/16/opinions/aziz-ansari-hard-conversation-oset-babur-opinion/index.html

I thought this write up was pretty good. I don’t think Aziz doesn’t have blame here. But it’s not all him.

As much as he should have, she should have.

If men need to change and his actions are not ok, so should women change and her actions or inactions are not ok.

No means no. Everyone needs to understand that.

Umm... ok sure I guess doesn’t mean no. Everyone needs to understand that as well.

 

[OrionFalls]

I think it’s fair to say they both play part in the blame game. He shouldn’t have been so pushy, she should’ve been verbal in saying no.

 

[Dunki]

http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/16/opinions/aziz-ansari-hard-conversation-oset-babur-opinion/index.html

I thought this write up was pretty good. I don’t think Aziz doesn’t have blame here. But it’s not all him.

As much as he should have, she should have.

If men need to change and his actions are not ok, so should women change and her actions or inactions are not ok.

No means no. Everyone needs to understand that.

Umm... ok sure I guess doesn’t mean no. Everyone needs to understand that as well.

I think the article is garbage to be honest since they always use someone like Jessica Valenti however I agree that both are at fault here and this needs to be discussed however that is not happening since people like Jessica only blame men and they have politicized this case and the whole movement to do so. Teaching boys not to rape is the wrong way since most of them know this already. It is like you teach someone not to murder people.

What we need to create is a environment which let women say NO and which women encourage to stand by their voice and actions. Victimization will always be wrong in my opinion. And no I do not think that we need to reconsider the whole interaction. We need to encourage people to put their own feelings above anyone else in these situations. If you are not ok with this. SAY it in a clear manner. If he/she does not accept this than it is a criminal sexual assault and needs to be handeled by the law and not Social media.

If you just say I guess it is your own fault for not stating your own feelings.

In the case of Aziz that should have been done in a private matter which by the way did happen one day afterwards. There was NO reason to to the press unless you wanted to destory that mans Life.

 

[Lupingosei]

So this is 2018 when people are discussing a bad date? Nothing in all of this goes beyond having a bad date and people not being able to connect to each other. Usually, that's it and you look out for someone else, but in 2018 this has to be discussed in public because a bad date is already a crime now or something. I wonder how long it will take that we also have similar movements like in Japan, where people stop dating because it is just not worth it anymore.

 

[Amibguous Cad]

http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/16/opinions/aziz-ansari-hard-conversation-oset-babur-opinion/index.html

I thought this write up was pretty good. I don’t think Aziz doesn’t have blame here. But it’s not all him.

As much as he should have, she should have.

If men need to change and his actions are not ok, so should women change and her actions or inactions are not ok.

No means no. Everyone needs to understand that.

Umm... ok sure I guess doesn’t mean no. Everyone needs to understand that as well.

No, man, "Umm.. ok sure I guess" means that you check in with your partner and figure out what's up. That's not a practical legal standard, not least because it requires knowing what was in his or her mind at the time, whether they picked up on the hesitance or discomfort.

But on a moral level? Yeah, if you see that your partner is uncomfortable or distressed and you don't check in, you're taking a chance that what you're doing is going to hurt him or her.

 

[DJ Incompetent]

I wonder how long it will take that we also have similar movements like in Japan, where people stop dating because it is just not worth it anymore.

*TheOnlyWinningMoveIsNotToPlay.gif*

 

[lifa-cobex]

So this is 2018 when people are discussing a bad date? Nothing in all of this goes beyond having a bad date and people not being able to connect to each other. Usually, that's it and you look out for someone else, but in 2018 this has to be discussed in public because a bad date is already a crime now or something. I wonder how long it will take that we also have similar movements like in Japan, where people stop dating because it is just not worth it anymore.

I think Japan is a different kettle of fish. Japan is very pro sex so I don't believe It's because they have given up in regards to dating and such. It's because everything around relationships has been put on the market for purchase.
It's a very business first, love second culture. As such they have pretty much put all forms of affection on the market.
So I don't think they have given up. But more that they can simply purchase a B/F OR G/F for any given time for any means they wish.

 

[Dunki]

I think Japan is a different kettle of fish. Japan is very pro sex so I don't believe It's because they have given up in regards to dating and such. It's because everything around relationships has been put on the market for purchase.
It's a very business first, love second culture. As such they have pretty much put all forms of affection on the market.
So I don't think they have given up. But more that they can simply purchase a B/F OR G/F for any given time for any means they wish.

For many it is just a hassle many people do not want to deal with in Japan. Also there is the problem for women that if you are pregnant you are basically done with work. But why waste time and energy on a date when you have hosttess and host clubs for this.

 

[lifa-cobex]

For many it is just a hassle many people do not want to deal with in Japan. Also there is the problem for women that if you are pregnant you are basically done with work. But why waste time and energy on a date when you have hosttess and host clubs for this.

I have to wonder what these ppl will be like when they get to retirement age.
I imagine their will be many sad lonely old ppl with no family to take care of them .

 

[caffeware]

I have to wonder what these ppl will be like when they get to retirement age.
I imagine their will be many sad lonely old ppl with no family to take care of them .

Dating doesn't solve this.

 

[Dunki]

looks like the publisher of this article had a few things to say about the open letter from Banfield



That was pretty disgusting and hypocritical to say to her. But I guess that is modern Femininsm in a nutshell. This is far from over and Babe does everything to kill 3rd wave femininsm movement.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Accidental post.

 

[MEsoJD]

I think it’s fair to say they both play part in the blame game. He shouldn’t have been so pushy, she should’ve been verbal in saying no.

This. People can't always assume their body language is being read correctly. Speak your mind, if you're uncomfortable.

 

[highrider]

Pro tip: When a guy is beyond certain point, the only thing that will stop him from trying to have sex is orgasm.

Don't expect a guy to just stop, watch a movie and cuddle if hes horny.

If your not feeling it, just leave.

Pros have self control and discipline. They also respect their partners.