Support NeoGAF

[rhino4evr]

Ico isnt about combat at all, and you really don't have to fight that much. Think of the enemies as just another part of the puzzle.

It's the story and atmosphere that make both of these games amazing, not necessarily the controls. I was struggling with the controls just today while fighting Colossi #3 and I was cursing the screen, but when that bitch finally fell I was all smiles

 

[Salaadin]

Forgot how glorious #7 was. The look of that fight is so nice.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

My point is you're playing a kid who is literally using a wooden stick to defend himself. It's not supposed to be easy, or graceful, or look cinematic, like it would in a game where you played a warrior (hence my GoW remark.) I believe the combat was designed intentionally to feel the way that it does.

I also agree with you that the combat design is intentional. That has nothing to do with whether or not it's fun. Yes it fits the context. I don't know who is wishing it was more cinematic. When I say it's stiff and feels shitty, I guess I am saying I wish it was more graceful. Like maybe Ico wouldn't stop dead in his tracks when swinging the stick. That wouldn't violate the context at all.

Ico isnt about combat at all, and you really don't have to fight that much. Think of the enemies as just another part of the puzzle.

The enemies usually aren't part of a puzzle in any conceivable way. They just take up your time. Occasionally they spawn while you're trying to solve a puzzle, but fighting them doesn't enhance the puzzlingness of the puzzles. It just interrupts the process temporarily.

But just in case it's not clear, I really like and respect this game. I just think the combat is weak and could have been better WITHOUT being deeper or cinematic or incongruent with the character being a helpless child.

 

[Yoshichan]

7 colossi dead on hard, 1h 27 minutes in :lol

edit: 8 colossi... 1h 35m bwhaha

edit 2: 9 colossi... 1h 44m

 

[Deified Data]

The enemies usually aren't part of a puzzle in any conceivable way. They just take up your time. Occasionally they spawn while you're trying to solve a puzzle, but fighting them doesn't enhance the puzzlingness of the puzzles. It just interrupts the process temporarily.

Good point. I've always thought of the shadows as a means of strengthening the bonds between the player and Yorda. They're obviously no great threat - they simply exist so the player can have that inkling of doubt when they leave Yorda behind somewhere, and that sense of relief when they see her again, safe and sound. A wise choice, from a development standpoint. You don't see enemies in videogames fulfill niches outside of "KILL US!!!" very often.

 

[RoadHazard]

I've now defeated 6 colossi in SotC, and I really enjoy this game!

However, what I came to say was: Wow @ this game's "overworld"! It's large, varied, open, seamless and epic! Sure, there's not really much going on in it, but the world itself is awesome. Basically, it's the Hyrule I've always wanted Nintendo to create (as far as "classic" Hyrules go).

 

[Mordeccai]

I just got this from the delivery man. Never played either game, haven't read a thing about them, just know this thread is huge and everybody loves both of these.

Looking forward to sitting down tonight and playing with my new 3D tv!

 

[Bebpo]

Good point. I've always thought of the shadows as a means of strengthening the bonds between the player and Yorda. They're obviously no great threat - they simply exist so the player can have that inkling of doubt when they leave Yorda behind somewhere, and that sense of relief when they see her again, safe and sound. A wise choice, from a development standpoint. You don't see enemies in videogames fulfill niches outside of "KILL US!!!" very often.

The shadows are also important for story purposes so they couldn't really get rid of them completely.

The

Spoiler

starting room fight vs. the sacrifices

would be nowhere near as powerful without them.

 

[rhino4evr]

I also agree with you that the combat design is intentional. That has nothing to do with whether or not it's fun. Yes it fits the context. I don't know who is wishing it was more cinematic. When I say it's stiff and feels shitty, I guess I am saying I wish it was more graceful. Like maybe Ico wouldn't stop dead in his tracks when swinging the stick. That wouldn't violate the context at all.



The enemies usually aren't part of a puzzle in any conceivable way. They just take up your time. Occasionally they spawn while you're trying to solve a puzzle, but fighting them doesn't enhance the puzzlingness of the puzzles. It just interrupts the process temporarily.

But just in case it's not clear, I really like and respect this game. I just think the combat is weak and could have been better WITHOUT being deeper or cinematic or incongruent with the character being a helpless child.

I think you just proved my point, trying to solve a puzzle in time and fending off the shadows is in fact apart of that puzzle. It's no different then being timed or distracted

 

[semiconscious]

I also agree with you that the combat design is intentional. That has nothing to do with whether or not it's fun. Yes it fits the context. I don't know who is wishing it was more cinematic. When I say it's stiff and feels shitty, I guess I am saying I wish it was more graceful. Like maybe Ico wouldn't stop dead in his tracks when swinging the stick. That wouldn't violate the context at all...

But just in case it's not clear, I really like and respect this game. I just think the combat is weak and could have been better WITHOUT being deeper or cinematic or incongruent with the character being a helpless child.

less graceful than you'd like = 'weak'? sounds to me like, having accepted the fact that the awkwardness is intentionally there in order to drive home to you, the player, the fact that your character is a young boy, in a strange & hostile place, attempting to defend himself & his friend from evil fiends while armed with nothing but a stick, you're basically left to quibble over how much more 'gracefully' this could've been accomplished...

try to imagine yourself at age 10 fighting for your life while armed with a 2x4, & tell me exactly how 'graceful' you'd be . people are deeply drawn into this game for many reasons, & who's to say that, for many of us, ico's close-to-realistic awkwardness in combat isn't one of them?...

 

[Einbroch]

15 is impossible on time attack. I'm so annoyed right now.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

less graceful than you'd like = 'weak'? sounds to me like, having accepted the fact that the awkwardness is intentionally there in order to drive home to you, the player, the fact that your character is a young boy, in a strange & hostile place, attempting to defend himself & his friend from evil fiends while armed with nothing but a stick, you're basically left to quibble over how much more 'gracefully' this could've been accomplished...

try to imagine yourself at age 10 fighting for your life while armed with a 2x4, & tell me exactly how 'graceful' you'd be . people are deeply drawn into this game for many reasons, & who's to say that, for many of us, ico's close-to-realistic awkwardness in combat isn't one of them?...

I tried to imagine myself at age 10 cleverly escaping a byzantine castle while climbing hundreds of feet with my own brute strength and my head exploded so I won't be able to imagine what you have suggested. Sorry.

Minor adjustments to the combat would have made it better. Just deal with the fact that this great game isn't perfect rather than resorting to some kind of ridiculous "realism" argument.

 

[Yoshichan]

15 is impossible on time attack. I'm so annoyed right now.

Normal or hard? Normal should np, just do everything solid. Hard needs that trick in the beginning where you jump on his knee.

 

[Draft]

The waterfall area is really killing my enjoyment of Ico. It's a perfect storm of shitty shit.

I don't know how to proceed. Fine. I will explore and figure out what to do. In doing so, I need to keep transitioning between the waterfall cavern and the water wheel. If I do so without dragging the girl behind me, shadows eat her. In order to move her from one area to another, I need to coax her stupid ass up not one, but two giant ass ladders.

I'm sure this is a non-issue to you Ico vets. Shit, maybe you think of these long ladder coaxing sequences as yet another charming narrative tool for developing the children's relationship.

But wait, it gets better. I solve the one puzzle in the water wheel area. Turns out it's Ico's version of the classic adventure game pixel hunt. Figure out how to start up the contraption, see that it seems to do, realize an hour later that it only does that if you hit the jump button at some completely arbitrary moment with split second timing. Sweet.

And now, after a few more sessions of dragging the girl up and down the highest Goddamn ladders in the castle, it seems that the next part of the puzzle involves yet another exciting test of timing and reflexes.

But, no doubt there's some serious bonding going on as I drag my ass out of the river for the 30th time.

 

[Mordeccai]

The waterfall area is really killing my enjoyment of Ico. It's a perfect storm of shitty shit.

I don't know how to proceed. Fine. I will explore and figure out what to do. In doing so, I need to keep transitioning between the waterfall cavern and the water wheel. If I do so without dragging the girl behind me, shadows eat her. In order to move her from one area to another, I need to coax her stupid ass up not one, but two giant ass ladders.

I'm sure this is a non-issue to you Ico vets. Shit, maybe you think of these long ladder coaxing sequences as yet another charming narrative tool for developing the children's relationship.

But wait, it gets better. I solve the one puzzle in the water wheel area. Turns out it's Ico's version of the classic adventure game pixel hunt. Figure out how to start up the contraption, see that it seems to do, realize an hour later that it only does that if you hit the jump button at some completely arbitrary moment with split second timing. Sweet.

And now, after a few more sessions of dragging the girl up and down the highest Goddamn ladders in the castle, it seems that the next part of the puzzle involves yet another exciting test of timing and reflexes.

But, no doubt there's some serious bonding going on as I drag my ass out of the river for the 30th time.

Granted, I've only played for an hour and a half so far, but this man is more or less echoing my sentiments.

 

[semiconscious]

Minor adjustments to the combat would have made it better. Just deal with the fact that this great game isn't perfect rather than resorting to some kind of ridiculous "realism" argument.

for you, obviously. for me, & others, no, not really. no game's perfect. but some come closer than others, &, in ico's case, i personally see the combat as being one of its pluses, rather than part of its imperfection...

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

for you, obviously. for me, & others, no, not really. no game's perfect. but some come closer than others, &, in ico's case, i personally see the combat as being one of its pluses, rather than part of its imperfection...

So there's no change to the combat that could make it better for you? So therefore you think it's perfect.

Look, I just have less patience than you. I can live with that. The combat ceased to be a problem about 2 hours in, as I've said several times recently in the thread.

However, I can completely relate to Draft's comments above, that suddenly the game requires some form of mechanical precision once you get to a certain puzzle area, and for that brief period, the controls don't live up to what is required of the player. Is it too difficult to manage? Of course not. Is it a problem that even once you know exactly what to do, it's difficult to execute it because of the mechanics/physics/controls/whatever you want to call it? Yes.

So in conclusion: Game awesome. Some aspects clumsy. And that's okay.

 

[conman]

So there's no change to the combat that could make it better for you? So therefore you think it's perfect.

That's not how these things work. The quest for "perfection" leads to doomed projects. This is the number one reason why second books, movies, albums by promising artists almost always suck. They're given too much freedom to "do the next one right" and invariably muck it up. As any artist/craftsman/creator will tell you, there's always more that could be done to a work. But the true test of a good artist is knowing when to say "I'm done" and move on.

The combat in Ico simply is what it is. It works. Going back and trying to "fix" it would only highlight some other apparent shortcoming somewhere else.

 

[patsu]

LOL. Was trying to retrieve the secret weapon.

Spoiler

The ball landed exactly at the rim of the urn and stuck there 4ever. I got Ico to climb up the urn to hit or retrieve the ball but nothing works. Had to restart from the last save point.

Will try again later.

 

[An-Det]

I just killed the first colossus. I feel like such a dick killing such a beautiful thing.

 

[Chuck]

I just defeated the 10th colossus. Wow. That was really intense and a little terrifying, but so also really amazing.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

The waterfall area is really killing my enjoyment of Ico. It's a perfect storm of shitty shit.

I don't know how to proceed. Fine. I will explore and figure out what to do. In doing so, I need to keep transitioning between the waterfall cavern and the water wheel. If I do so without dragging the girl behind me, shadows eat her. In order to move her from one area to another, I need to coax her stupid ass up not one, but two giant ass ladders.

I'm sure this is a non-issue to you Ico vets. Shit, maybe you think of these long ladder coaxing sequences as yet another charming narrative tool for developing the children's relationship.

But wait, it gets better. I solve the one puzzle in the water wheel area. Turns out it's Ico's version of the classic adventure game pixel hunt. Figure out how to start up the contraption, see that it seems to do, realize an hour later that it only does that if you hit the jump button at some completely arbitrary moment with split second timing. Sweet.

And now, after a few more sessions of dragging the girl up and down the highest Goddamn ladders in the castle, it seems that the next part of the puzzle involves yet another exciting test of timing and reflexes.

But, no doubt there's some serious bonding going on as I drag my ass out of the river for the 30th time.

Do shadows actually get the girl if you fall down the waterfall? That never happened for me when I played this for the first time yesterday, and I really took my time getting back there.

I see where you're coming from with a lot of your complaints, it's just -- well -- I never got stuck at any point in the game. I had instances where I was in a room for a while, but never where the game forced me to repeat huge sections, lose Yorda or force me to take her back and forth over a million ladders. There was always a place I could leave her while I did my business, especially if I was just going to leave a room for a few seconds.

I don't know, maybe I was lucky. It felt like I could always reasonably intuit when leaving Yorda by herself would make sense.

Granted, the split-second jump was bullshit.

 

[Tathanen]

I didn't remember the waterfall area at all when I played it this time, it's been a long time since I played Ico. I bounced on that thing a couple times, thought "hm," and hit jump. It worked. One try, no problems.

The water wheel I tried maybe 5 times? I heard someone complaining about having to redo all sorts of stuff every time he failed, I have no idea what he's talking about. If I grabbed on the wheel and didn't make the next jump fast enough, I just pushed to the side of the river, climbed up, and tried again. It took me about 60 seconds to get up.

I have no idea how the combat could be improved. Literally no idea. You hit them with the stick until they die. If they knock you down, you wail on buttons until you get up, then start hitting them again.

ITT: people suck at Ico and blame it for it.

(What always drove me the craziest about Ico was having to pull Yorda up through that one hole. There was really no indication that you could reach her, though maybe I should've trusted her insistent pointing at the hole and tried.)

 

[Yoshichan]

Do shadows actually get the girl if you fall down the waterfall? That never happened for me when I played this for the first time yesterday, and I really took my time getting back there.

Yes, the shadows can grab her if you fall down.

 

[Ribbon]

So happy I played through Ico again. 3 years since my last play through and still in my top 5 of all time.

 

[Neuromancer]

I didn't remember the waterfall area at all when I played it this time, it's been a long time since I played Ico. I bounced on that thing a couple times, thought "hm," and hit jump. It worked. One try, no problems.

The water wheel I tried maybe 5 times? I heard someone complaining about having to redo all sorts of stuff every time he failed, I have no idea what he's talking about. If I grabbed on the wheel and didn't make the next jump fast enough, I just pushed to the side of the river, climbed up, and tried again. It took me about 60 seconds to get up.

I have no idea how the combat could be improved. Literally no idea. You hit them with the stick until they die. If they knock you down, you wail on buttons until you get up, then start hitting them again.

ITT: people suck at Ico and blame it for it.

(What always drove me the craziest about Ico was having to pull Yorda up through that one hole. There was really no indication that you could reach her, though maybe I should've trusted her insistent pointing at the hole and tried.)

Haha I got stuck at the same exact part too, I totally forgot about that one.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

I'm enjoying Ico a lot, but it's a product of its time, and it takes a little unlearning to get comfortable with it. Seriously, those of us who are frustrated with the combat aren't just philistines who need our hands held.

The arguments about the combat being intuitively simple and realistic for a young kid with a stick don't really hold up to me. Honestly, the most instinctive thing that comes to me when I want to protect the girl is to stick her in a corner so the enemies can only come at her through me. This isn't a really smart approach though, as it's more a matter of getting the shadows to come up from behind in an open space then turning to fight or just grabbing the girl and hoofing it, and trying to fight by a wall will result in the stick ricocheting off the wall and you getting knocked down by a shadow for 5 seconds.

My biggest problem with the game was apparent to me from the outset, and I'm giving the game slack for it: it's 10 years old and it has a painful archaic camera scheme which directly affects the way you maneuver the game world. For example, I spent most of the first 10 minutes of the game running off of ledges because I wasn't expecting to have to continuously correct the direction of the analog stick to keep running in a straight line.

 

[Max]

I never knew leaving the SOTC menu alone for a few minutes would load Agro running around freely

At first I thought I was controlling him >_>

 

[Yoshichan]

I never knew leaving the SOTC menu alone for a few minutes would load Agro running around freely

At first I thought I was controlling him >_>

You get to control a bird

 

[Tathanen]

My biggest problem with the game was apparent to me from the outset, and I'm giving the game slack for it: it's 10 years old and it has a painful archaic camera scheme which directly affects the way you maneuver the game world. For example, I spent most of the first 10 minutes of the game running off of ledges because I wasn't expecting to have to continuously correct the direction of the analog stick to keep running in a straight line.

That reminds me. When shimmying along a ledge or a pipe or whatever, you actually have to point the stick on the angle that the edge makes across your screen based on where the camera points. If you just hold right, you'll stop moving if the camera makes your ledge appear on an angle. It blew my mind, and made me realize this game really was doing a lot of things before mechanics like this were standardized across games and genres. Pretty jarring in retrospect.

 

[Dynedom]

Really not looking forward to Hard Time Attack with these grip physics.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

I'm going to sound absolutely crazy and overly apologetic, but I had no problems with the camera either. I mean, I never even had to think about it. The only time I really gave it thought was early on when I was thinking to myself "oh cool, I don't have to worry about the camera, like Mario Galaxy. Neat."

 

[darkwing]

I never knew leaving the SOTC menu alone for a few minutes would load Agro running around freely

At first I thought I was controlling him >_>

this game was far ahead of its time

 

[warpaint]

Damn it i'm finding the 3rd Colossus is bugging the hell out of me, i know what i have to do iknow it is me but man is it a pain

 

[Adamm]

I dont get the complaints about the combat in ico.

Press button, swing stick, hit shadow - repeat until dead.
Whats the problem?

 

[OceansAndEarth]

Finally received the Japanese LE

 

[StuBurns]

I dont get the complaints about the combat in ico.

Press button, swing stick, hit shadow - repeat until dead.
Whats the problem?

I'm pretty sure people just think it's shit, not that it's hard.

 

[ScOULaris]

I never knew leaving the SOTC menu alone for a few minutes would load Agro running around freely

At first I thought I was controlling him >_>

If your last save was at one of the save shrines out in the Forbidden Lands, that attract mode will show a hawk flying around instead of Agro. In this version, a song that was previously absent in the U.S. PS2 release plays while the bird flies around the landscape. It's awesome.

Also, I'm 11 Colossi into Hard Time Attack with no problems. Then again, I'm saving #3 and #15 for last. Those are gonna be hell (stomach and chest vitals + new grip physics).

 

[goonergaz]

is there a way to improve the grip size? I know how you can improve your life bar...

 

[KennyLinder]

is there a way to improve the grip size? I know how you can improve your life bar...

Play the game.... The more Colossi you kill, the bigger your grip/life gets (I think, not played it since PS2 and have't started PS3 ver yet)

 

[Philanthropist]

I dont get the complaints about the combat in ico.

Press button, swing stick, hit shadow - repeat until dead.
Whats the problem?

They were probably expecting Devil May Cry combo depth.

is there a way to improve the grip size? I know how you can improve your life bar...

Kill white tailed lizards, eat the tail. There's one in every shrine as well as many more spread over the land.

 

[ScOULaris]

They were probably expecting Devil May Cry combo depth..

Alright, come on now. Everyone knew that Ico had simplistic combat going in. What they are bothered by is the unresponsiveness of the combat, which is a legitimate complaint. My advice to people who are annoyed by the combat, however, is to just drag Yorda's ass to the nearest magic doors to kill all of the shadows in the area. This can be done for about 80% of the fights in the game.

 

[semiconscious]

That's not how these things work. The quest for "perfection" leads to doomed projects. This is the number one reason why second books, movies, albums by promising artists almost always suck. They're given too much freedom to "do the next one right" and invariably muck it up. As any artist/craftsman/creator will tell you, there's always more that could be done to a work. But the true test of a good artist is knowing when to say "I'm done" and move on.

The combat in Ico simply is what it is. It works. Going back and trying to "fix" it would only highlight some other apparent shortcoming somewhere else.

agreed. this's basically the reason why, if a game (or book, or movie) works for me in just about every way, i have absolutely no interest in dwelling on, analyzing, or complaining about whatever small shortcomings might be present. i'm not denying they're there, or claiming perfection. i'm just not expecting, or looking for, perfection to begin with, so the fact that there are minor imperfections doesn't really bother me...

could the combat've be more fluid? sure. need it be? to the extent that, as is, it interferes with someone's overall enjoyment of the game? i think that's a completely subjective call...

could the platforming be improved? could the puzzles? could the graphics? need they be? &, if you answer 'no, they needn't be', are you claiming they're all perfect? there's 'perfection', & there's 'works well within the context of the artist's vision'. & it's on the latter level that both these games work for me. they just needn't' be better, in any way...

 

[goonergaz]

Kill white tailed lizards, eat the tail. There's one in every shrine as well as many more spread over the land.

ah, thanks mate - I thought I read about the lizards elsewhere but it wasn't affecting my grip - however I think the key is 'white tailed'!!

 

[ScOULaris]

Low quality, but it's something:

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h420/iscah_rambles/ICOloadscreen-split.jpg

I just want someone with a Blu-Ray drive on their PC to extract the actual image used for the menu at full resolution. You can bet your ass I'd print that out and frame it.

 

[StuBurns]

I really wish the Nico DVD cover was the real SotC cover.

 

[MrCookiepants]

I feel #9 is shamefully underrated. He's definitely one of my faves. And, along with #2, has the best music in the game.

 

[ScOULaris]

I feel #9 is shamefully underrated. He's definitely one of my faves. And, along with #2, has the best music in the game.

I agree. #9 is badass, even if he is a bit on the easy side. I love his design and the area in which you fight him.

 

[Jacob4815]

The collection will be released on the PSN?

 

[revolverjgw]

They were probably expecting Devil May Cry combo depth.



Kill white tailed lizards, eat the tail. There's one in every shrine as well as many more spread over the land.

Exactly how much more grip does one lizard give you?