I played a bunch of KOF13 on Sunday while it was on location test, and I really enjoyed it. KOF12 I thought was boring from the beginning and I felt that the CC engine was not all that interesting, but KOF13's new system is fun to use and makes a hell of a lot more sense than the CC system. Having said that the only two things that irked me were the size of the characters -- they're too small on screen -- and the game is a tad slow. If they made the characters slightly bigger and sped up the game, it's gonna be really fun to play this.
Do you have oldschool KOF experience? When you say slow, do you mean slow compared to XI (which was way too fast of a game), or slow compared to 98 (which would be an issue potentially)?
It's hard to tell game speed from Youtube sometimes.
The small chars- I like it because it expands the playfield, which is something KOF needs. KOF12 reminded me too much of AOF due to the chars size, and AOF sucked.
The only real broken concern I have right now is hearing what Kyo can do with air orochinagi.
Blazblue looks the same as HD remix style of art, just much better animated, and with nicer linework. I have seen rasterized looking captures of the sprites, but I also remember seeing images of GGXX drawn in Photoshop (or something of the sort) years back. See no reason why they'd suddenly do it a different way.
Frankfurt is good at finding refs for these kind of things, so if there is anything out there that shows BB's sprite creation, I'll leave that to him.
No need discussing anything at this level without confirmation of one way or the other ^_^ But I'd doubt SNKP would make as big a deal over their pixelwork, if BB was ALSO doing it the same way. But no proof to prove either point! So I won't say any more on that yet...
Since i dont have anything good to say about BB (Besided the good netcode) i wont say anything. :lol
I prefer KOF super detailed and awesomely animated sprites to BB High Res sprites.
But everyone has their own taste so there isnt a right or wrong way of doing sprites.
That is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about RESOLUTION, the only thing that those pages are talking about is how they opted to do Pixel by Pixel over Vectors and 3D Poligons. They in no where talk about why they pick the resolution they pick for the sprites, they don't even mention how long it would take if they had made the sprites bigger aka 720pixels high.
What we only know is that it takes "4 times more" to be done, well that is obvious by the amount of detail and animation frames they want to pull out of the sprites. But I doubt it has to do with the 480p resolution they pick, it would take about the same time to finish if they had started doing the sprites at 720p. The 480p resolution on the sprites must have been a bad decision or a mistake, or a miss understanding of the hardware, I don't know, but I hardly doubt it would be a HUGE difference if they had started doing the sprites at 720p instead of 480p.
You're not only grasping, you're also contradicting yourself.
First you say they didn't do it pixel by pixel. Now you admit they did, but you say your argument was about RESOLUTION only and not about doing it pixel by pixel.
Higher resolution = more pixels.
More pixels = more dotting.
More dotting = more time.
Simple as that.
To make it even worse, you then you say the new sprites only take four times more because there's more detail (more pixels to dot!!!) and animation. Dude, the number of frames to animate is the same as have always been - 450-600 per character. Kukino says so himself.
You're not only grasping, you're also contradicting yourself.
First you say they didn't do it pixel by pixel. Now you admit they did, but you say your argument was about RESOLUTION only and not about doing it pixel by pixel.
Higher resolution = more pixels.
More pixels = more dotting.
More dotting = more time.
Simple as that.
To make it even worse, you then you say the new sprites only take four times more because there's more detail (more pixels to dot!!!) and animation. Dude, the number of frames to animate is the same as have always been - 450-600 per character. Kukino says so himself.
Do you really think they did the sprites Pixel by Pixel (literally dot by dot)? That is what I tried to say. They obviously didn't do the sprites dot by dot (or pixel by pixel, what ever you want to call it).
With your idea of people literally doing the sprites dot by dot, then yeah it makes sense that more dots = more time. But do you seriously think they did it that way? Obviously not, its dumb to do it that way when you have more "space" to work with now. Besides they are using digital pens (saw that in the ignition interview video), so they can easily just draw lines and fill the gaps fast. In my opinion, if they started doing bigger sprites from the ones they are doing, they won't take that much more time to do if they had started to do them at that resolution (720) from the start.
To make it even worse, you then you say the new sprites only take four times more because there's more detail (more pixels to dot!!!) and animation. Dude, the number of frames to animate is the same as have always been - 450-600 per character. Kukino says so himself.
The better word to use here is probably "technique". And that is to say, Arc System works pioneered using vector art for 2D fighters, which gave them a general boost to clarity, and, beyond stanced and stuff, a bit less animation quality. The Standard of HD 2D they set is what HD remix based it's creation and animation techniques off of.
So when I said "style" there, I meant their style of asset creation, is all.
-DarKaoZ- said:
I remember where I read that now, Gamasutra never fails me.
It's commentary like this that still leads me to believe they just rasterize vector art, rather than actually do pixel/dot art:
Had you done that with other games, or is this a first time thing for BlazBlue?
JM: Yes, actually I did something similar on a Dragon Ball game for the Game Boy Advance, and then for Basara as well. We used it in those cases to make sure the quality would be even throughout the game.
DI: One difference between BlazBlue and KOF is that after we have the animators design things like the shadows, we go in and make corrections ourselves.
JM: Yeah, compared to KOF, the BlazBlue sprites are closer to being hand-drawn, because we only use the 3D graphics as an outline. In KOF, they do all the shadows and shading in 3D, and then convert them into 2D sprites, but in Blaz Blue, we redraw the sprites by hand.
Did you have to make special tools to be able to do that, like new tools made within the company?
TM: Actually, no. We were able to use techniques we had in the past.
Do you just export the animations and then pull them into a 2D artwork program, so you can see how the poses are? It seems like that must be really hard to do.
TM: Well, when making a 2D fighting game these days, people tend to do almost all the work using 3D models, which usually ends with them saying, "Well, why don't we make the whole game 3D, then?"
For me, the graphics in a 2D fighter have to retain that hand-drawn feel, no matter what technology is being used. So, even if we're starting out with 3D models, we have to go back over them by hand, and make them come alive that way.
It's a bit confusing, especially since people refer to basically all character elements in 2D games as "sprites" now-a-days. Really threw me off the first time I saw a pre-rendered chracter refered to as a "sprite"... But anyway...
Even if they do you pixel/dotting (they never say it directly here, so who knows), the point would still stand that their increased resolution lead to sharper linework, but less animation quality per frame. Same as with traditional anime; the shows with sharper linework generally have less animation going on, as a whole, whereas the ones with less details have smoother animation.
(Side note:
I kinda hate that interview, because it was the start of much "OMG, SNK are TRACERS, LAZY LAZY!" debate during KoF XII's release. I don't think Arc was trying to put them down, as they admited to using 3D models in order to keyframe more consistent animations, too, but it really spawned alot of misunderstanding...
)
I've become rather attached to the self shading, dynamic evironmental highlighting / shading, and overall animation quality of the XII + XIII characters, personally. I would hate to see those things disappear, just for the sake of higher resolution. The fact they basically rotoscoped animation, and took all the positives (super smoothness and consistency) and none of the negatives (OVER smoothness that looks nasty and unlike traditional 2D animation, as well as falling headfirst into the uncanny valley), continues to impress me, even still.
Of course, I'd love it if we could have these characters just as well defined at 720p. But at around 500 frames each, for 31 characters, any increase of a few hours of work per frame, on 15,500 frames, would have cost a lot more manpower, and taken much more time.
jett said:
KOFXII animates A HELL OF A LOT better than any KOF game before it.
In some cases, though, that's not because there are more FRAMES per say, but just that they animate MORE per frame. If I take 12 frames to animated an arm moving for a punch, that's one thing. If I go back and animate not only the arm movement, but also the folds of the shirt, the shifting of musculature, the lower body's subtle twist as the upper body twist forward, and maybe the stress on the characters face from putting their all into the punch, I've added a lot more layers of secondary animation, without increasing my frame count.
THIS is where modern KoF animation trumps older KoFs, and Blazblue. Not specifically in amount of frames, but in what they DO with those frames.
-DarKaoZ- said:
Do you really think they did the sprites Pixel by Pixel (literally dot by dot)? That is what I tried to say. They obviously didn't do the sprites dot by dot (or pixel by pixel, what ever you want to call it).
With your idea of people literally doing the sprites dot by dot, then yeah it makes sense that more dots = more time. But do you seriously think they did it that way? Obviously not, its dumb to do it that way when you have more "space" to work with now. Besides they are using digital pens (saw that in the ignition interview video), so they can easily just draw lines and fill the gaps fast. In my opinion, if they started doing bigger sprites from the ones they are doing, they won't take that much more time to do if they had started to do them at that resolution (720) from the start.
There are certain elements in pixel art that have to be done "dot by dot". Sure, you can block out basic shapes, and fill them in with flats, to get the jist of what you're working. But there's no "easy tool" that gives you pixel linework. You can't just draw diagonal lines with a penstroke and call it done. You have to follow the proper stair-steps for those diagonals. You can't just draw a line of color for a shade, of get a gradient "for free", you have to draw all those layers and details by hand, and consistently, for animation. Even redrawing the self-shading isn't something done "for free". It all has to be touched up, and made to follow the same amount of dots per frame, on each element.
It's quick and easy to get the base work done, sure. But to gain the consistency between frames, to make sure everything moves just as many pixel as you wish, and no more, no less, to make sure things that spin and rotate and deform keep a constant pixel ratio... that's where the timesink comes in.
SNKP has a lot more going on per frame in their animations than BB (they have little in the way of secondary animation) so it's quite a difference.
The better word to use here is probably "technique". And that is to say, Arc System works pioneered using vector art for 2D fighters, which gave them a general boost to clarity, and, beyond stanced and stuff, a bit less animation quality. The Standard of HD 2D they set is what HD remix based it's creation and animation techniques off of.
BlazBlue is still dot by dot/pixel by pixel/pixel art, let me show you a BlazBlue Sprite.
If it was Vector Base art, then you wouldn't be able to see those straight lines that only Pixel Art does, because Vector by default will blur the edges to keep them "smooth" kinda like what brushes do in photoshop.
Unless they are using a method of "Vector Art" I don't know of yet. =/
SAB CA said:
There are certain elements in pixel art that have to be done "dot by dot". Sure, you can block out basic shapes, and fill them in with flats, to get the jist of what you're working. But there's no "easy tool" that gives you pixel linework. You can't just draw diagonal lines with a penstroke and call it done. You have to follow the proper stair-steps for those diagonals. You can't just draw a line of color for a shade, of get a gradient "for free", you have to draw all those layers and details by hand, and consistently, for animation. Even redrawing the self-shading isn't something done "for free". It all has to be touched up, and made to follow the same amount of dots per frame, on each element.
It's quick and easy to get the base work done, sure. But to gain the consistency between frames, to make sure everything moves just as many pixel as you wish, and no more, no less, to make sure things that spin and rotate and deform keep a constant pixel ratio... that's where the timesink comes in.
SNKP has a lot more going on per frame in their animations than BB (they have little in the way of secondary animation) so it's quite a difference.
Indeed, there are thing that must be "fix" dot by dot, I know that by fact (since most of my drawings are done in MS Paint). But if you are skilled (which most of the SNKP Spriters are), keeping standard shouldn't be that hard using a 3D Model as a base. Shades can be done fast, you can draw a line, then fill the gap, then draw the other line of the shade and fill that gap with that color, and keep going until you get the shading effect using Pixels. They could only use dot by dot to fix certain areas to keep the standard of the animation, but its hard to notice such things in an animation, so they must have a "margin" of error, which gives the 2D Animation its charm.
I would really like to see the difference of the sprite size in KOF XIII in comparison to XII. The sprites are still highly detailed, and they look good in the HD beta vids.....but I feel like i'm missing something. People are saying they are small and blurry?
I would really like to see the difference of the sprite size in KOF XIII in comparison to XII. The sprites are still highly detailed, and they look good in the HD beta vids.....but I feel like i'm missing something. People are saying they are small and blurry?
I played a bunch of KOF13 on Sunday while it was on location test, and I really enjoyed it. KOF12 I thought was boring from the beginning and I felt that the CC engine was not all that interesting, but KOF13's new system is fun to use and makes a hell of a lot more sense than the CC system. Having said that the only two things that irked me were the size of the characters -- they're too small on screen -- and the game is a tad slow. If they made the characters slightly bigger and sped up the game, it's gonna be really fun to play this.
granted i haven't played it yet, but the youtube vids make the game look really fast IMO. usually when watching a fighter vs playing, it feels much slower watching. so if the vids already feel fast to me, then the speed while playing will be insane.
Honestly, I don't see the complaining. I think the sprites are still pretty damn good, and the smaller size allows the game to retain a faster gameplay speed.
On a plus side, not having the zoom feature during battle allows for it to be used during the neomaxes/special moves, which adds to the cinematic effect during attacks.
If the home version allows zoom, then I guess everyone will be happy. :lol
Do you have oldschool KOF experience? When you say slow, do you mean slow compared to XI (which was way too fast of a game), or slow compared to 98 (which would be an issue potentially)?
It's hard to tell game speed from Youtube sometimes.
The small chars- I like it because it expands the playfield, which is something KOF needs. KOF12 reminded me too much of AOF due to the chars size, and AOF sucked.
The only real broken concern I have right now is hearing what Kyo can do with air orochinagi.
I wish they'd remake ANYTHING with these sprites XD Heck, I'd take Burning Fight HD! Athena got a cellphone remake though, if memory serves... would be nice to see an "HD" port.
(HD for these games should just mean "Higher Definition" XD)
shidoshi said:
I just have to say that I LOVE the color scheme going on for Athena in that video showing off her Neomax.
Mmm, I'll say no more on the subject (for now!) XD
However, it's fun comparing the Blazblue sprite to even your K' avatar. It's a good comparision for the amount of secondary animation in BB VS KoF. K's entire upper body is very involved in his animation, whereas BB dude (I forget his name? Haven't cared about CS) has his moving arm, the buckle on is shirt, and his hair. No breathing, no attempt to balance his weight with slight movement...
Every time I see the animation-limited victory poses and stuff in BB, I think of how Iori lurches after doing his Maiden Masher (Slasher?) now... It's like they're worlds apart.
I'm still pretty plesantly suprised by the amount of unique animations present in the Neomax's, even the quicker, understated ones.
Oh, and when it comes to Zoom... I've gotten much more used to the lack of zoom after watchinga all these vids. The effects on moves now are just TOO LARGE for zooms, anyhow. Yuri's NUKE-OH-KEN would be insane with XII's zoom! It's very cool that they've adjusted the moves to fit the new space, effect wise. To me, that really helps the zoom-out seem much less awkward now.
Even is XIII doesn't have a "no filter" option for sprites in home release, I'm kinda OK with it. I'll always have XII to see Pixels in their wonderfully Blocky glory, and the "blur" isn't all that bad. But it should at LEAST have all the filter options the old PS2/XBLA games have, too, so I don't think there's too much to worry about.
Wonder what we'll see on Blog/Official site this Thursday... 2nd member of Team K' perhaps?
I'm enjoying SSFIV as well, but there are so many awkward move properties, and "complicated for the sake of complication" style decisions in the game... It's funny that modern Capcom remind me of Old School SNK in that regard.
Everytime some Auto-correct BS, Downfoward Spammer, or total shutout turtlefest occur, I find my mind drifting to KoF...V Slasher & Rebel Spark > SSFIV XD
SNK Style Comboable Counter Neomax's are also infinately better than the stuff they gave Cammy + Fei in Super. (Abel's Breathless, however, is awesome.)
Not only King's Neomax, but also the first time we've seen Elisabeth's EXDM version of her Grand Rafale! This is significant, because it actually shoots out from her body, flying across the screen like a projectile! It's never had this property in XI or XII before, so that's pretty cool. Elisabeth actually get the ability to shoot something ranged away from her body now!
King's Neomax looks pretty sweet, would assume you can shoot it from different heights, and it looks like hitting with it leave champaign-like bubbly explosions all along the ground... fitting!
Not only King's Neomax, but also the first time we've seen Elisabeth's EXDM version of her Grand Rafale! This is significant, because it actually shoots out from her body, flying across the screen like a projectile! It's never had this property in XI or XII before, so that's pretty cool. Elisabeth actually get the ability to shoot something ranged away from her body now!
King's Neomax looks pretty sweet, would assume you can shoot it from different heights, and it looks like hitting with it leave champaign-like bubbly explosions all along the ground... fitting!
:lol She's an attractive lady, surely! When I think "cute" though, that's more like Yuri or Athena (Mature Cute!) or Kula (Awwww! Cute).
I love Beth's XII-born outfit as well; I found it stupid that this serious, refined woman had this massive fanservice hole in her vest... it was just stupid. Kinda like if King went around wearing a see-through skirt. It diminished the personality they wanted to give her. Her newer outfit is much more fitting of a mature woman! The previous one was like an immature cry for attention...
They're ugly because of ASW crazy ass animu character designs. :\
Let's just hope SNK and ASW can hold the line, or the only remaining 2D fighters will be crazy loli-rape shit. Sort of how shmups these days are all loli-rape-tastic.
You know how Cavia made a character for Nier in the US and one for Japan?
I'd kill for a re-skin of stuff like Gundemonium to get the stupid little girls off the screen and give me some space ships dammit! >:|
Y'know, I generally don't like mutant-skin color palettes in fighters... but I have to say, I like them for Hwa Jai! That creepy face of his makes him look like an enemy from something like Capcom's Dungeon and Dragons arcade games... so the fact he has blue, red, and green skin palettes makes loads of sense.
It might be a decent marketing move, too, to hide all these references and such in this game. Colors that make Athena look like various famous Anime school girls, Like Kagome, or maybe someone from the cast of K-on, Making Yuri look like random SNK stars of old like Yuki from Last Blade, Shen and Kyo resembling colors from various stars from Shonen Anime, Making Elisabeth into Von Karma from Phoenix Wright... Would be a fun thing for DLC palette colors, too.
Fersis, ReXXXX: BTW, hope you guys family issues worked themselves out! Y'know... we can't have our VP and CEO's out of sorts with new location test coming up! :lol
Fersis, ReXXXX: BTW, hope you guys family issues worked themselves out! Y'know... we can't have our VP and CEO's out of sorts with new location test coming up! :lol
I'm good now. All in the past. I'm ready for tomorrow because I know I have some work ahead of me. When that new ish starts dropping Fersis will be good as well. Work and Hype can be the best cure for what ails sometimes. It's what got me back to normal. I'm prepared to shut the internet down once again. Wouldn't be the first time and it won't be the last.
